7800 Expansion Module

[Bakasama]

[Edit]: BTW, just trying to convince Curt to add a YM2151 sound chip to the 7800 module. The most used sound chip from the 80s (and one of the most powerful too), starting with Marble Madness onwards all Atari Games arcades used it, not to mention all Sega, Capcom and Konami arcade games from 84/85 up. If you like the idea please lobby Curt to include it (write him a message and let him know). I have 100 of those here, so availability isn't a problem.

 

The 7800 can use a YM2151 sound chip? I heard of people suggest using it. How many sound channels does this chip have?

[Atari Joe]

 

I've checked out your YM2151 info on your website Eduardo and listened to the sample.

 

Really? I don't remember any samples in my website...

 

My mistake, I was thinking of the IC OKI MSM 9842 voice synth chip. I was really impressed by that for Coleco Voice.

[opcode]

 

The 7800 can use a YM2151 sound chip? I heard of people suggest using it. How many sound channels does this chip have?

 

Yes, it can. The YM2151 (aka OPM) is the sound beast from the 80s. 8 FM sound channels, 4-operators per channel, ADSR and much more, the closest we could get to the Yamaha DX-7 synth for home use. Even think it was the king in the arcades, only two CE products used it, the Sharp X68000 and the Yamaha MSX music computer. The Genesis used one of the OPNs, a similar but inferior series, SMS used an OPLL in Japan (way inferior), PCEngine/TurboGrafx, wasn't FM, but rather a WSG (like the old Namco arcades from the early 80s).

For (good) examples of pure YM2151 I suggest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCNdQBMrTEI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGswImbRkaE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW5fmQyEd8k&feature=related

 

And of course Castlevania X68000, with the help of a little ADPCM:

Edited June 1, 2010 by opcode

[ApolloBoy]

I'd love to have a YM2151 included in the expansion module. Doesn't it require a DAC though?

[Bakasama]

@ opcode

 

With a YM2151, a POKEY, and a TIA, that's I believe 14 sound channels. That's a lot for a 80's console. It's pretty obvious you have big plans for the 7800 soundwise. I would love to see Pengo with that kind of sound.

[Curt Vendel]

Well,

 

Things are getting cramped, I've just informed the team of the real estate we are working with, its gonna be tight. Too tight for an idea for an internal expansion header, so its going to have to be an external expansion header only, still some room for an SIO port and a DB9.

 

The "Definite" features are the 128K of usable RAM, the High Score with NvRAM, and Pokey... I need to see a solid solution to implementing the extra sound processor and I need to make a library for it and figure out where I'm going to put it. Looks like this is probably going to turn into a 4 layer board even with mostly SMD components.

 

 

 

 

Curt

 

@ opcode

 

With a YM2151, a POKEY, and a TIA, that's I believe 14 sound channels. That's a lot for a 80's console. It's pretty obvious you have big plans for the 7800 soundwise. I would love to see Pengo with that kind of sound.

[opcode]

@ opcode

 

With a YM2151, a POKEY, and a TIA, that's I believe 14 sound channels. That's a lot for a 80's console. It's pretty obvious you have big plans for the 7800 soundwise. I would love to see Pengo with that kind of sound.

 

Know what, with the latest developments in the 7800 module it seems to me that classic era arcade ports aren't the ideal showcase of the module's potential anymore. GroovyBee came with an idea for an advanced scroll/indirect mode that is just brilliant. That and OPM/YM2151 sound just raised the bar several notches...

[Underball]

This is starting to go beyond being a simple expansion module, and is becoming a whole new system, coming close to 16-bit system capabilities.

 

I don't know if that's really a good thing.

[opcode]

This is starting to go beyond being a simple expansion module, and is becoming a whole new system, coming close to 16-bit system capabilities.

 

I don't know if that's really a good thing.

 

As good as all of this sounds (no pun intended), I can tell you it is far from 16-bit system level...

[jaybird3rd]

This is starting to go beyond being a simple expansion module, and is becoming a whole new system, coming close to 16-bit system capabilities.

 

I don't know if that's really a good thing.

Agreed. It's easy to give in to the temptation to pile on everything that might be desirable to have on the 7800, but taken too far, that leads to building a whole new system around the old one (or, more likely, the Expansion Module dying of a terminal case of featureitis before it's even finished).

 

I think the Expansion Module should stay within the original concept: adding a POKEY and extra RAM so those components don't have to be built in to every game any longer, along with the High Score Cartridge. That stays within the bounds of technologies that are "native" to the 7800. To those who really want the more advanced features (YM2151, etc) that badly, I would suggest developing for a platform that already has them. Why transform the 7800 into some kind of Frankenconsole?

[Underball]

This is starting to go beyond being a simple expansion module, and is becoming a whole new system, coming close to 16-bit system capabilities.

 

I don't know if that's really a good thing.

 

As good as all of this sounds (no pun intended), I can tell you it is far from 16-bit system level...

I dont' mean in terms or raw processing power, no. but adding a YM2151 into the mix, when you already have an added pokey in there for sound, seems like overkill.

[opcode]

All the 7800 competitors got extra sound chips, the SMS got FM sound, the NES got several sound chips, including FM from Konami, so no big deal, we are just giving the 7800 the same extras.

 

The NES came out in 1983 (in Japan), but nobody thinks of it as a classic age machine, even though its original offerings were Donkey Kong, DK Jr and Popeye. That is because the NES evolved far beyond that. The 7800 had the same potential, it just didn't get the chance it deserved with Atari Corp being the cheap company they were...

 

Anyway, here is how good a game with the 7800 module may look (thanks to GroovyBee Super Scroll mode). It is still Maria doing everything, though the CPU gets a little help from our PLD. The mockup is kind of rough, the score area should be ignored, that is something I did in a half hour as a POC. The final game would have some extra detail the walls are lacking the exposed bricks, etc. I am not really an artist...

 

Eduardo

[TrekMD]

Cool!

[Atari Joe]

Would you say in your estimation the 7800 expansion module would be roughly equivalent graphically to what youre doing with the Coleco module or would you say it surpasses it? How are you thinking this will interface with the 7800? Snap on to the side? Be in its own stand alone box with a cable to the controller port or the cartridge port? Just wondering, I am very excited!

[Bakasama]

How are you thinking this will interface with the 7800? Snap on to the side? Be in its own stand alone box with a cable to the controller port or the cartridge port? Just wondering, I am very excited!

 

You just stick the expansion module in the cart port. There were plans for a CPU for it but it's being handled by somebody else.

 

@ opcode

 

This Super Scroll mode by GroovyBee mentioned, doesn't that make creating scrolling games like Super Mario Bros easier? I know it was mentioned by somebody else that the 7800 strength's were making games like the Legend of Zelda and Space Harrier. A stock 7800 can do Super Mario Bros. but it required a lot of work to so.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Bakasama

[Atari Joe]

You just stick the expansion module in the cart port. There were plans for a CPU for it but it's being handled by somebody else.

 

Is this all going to fit into some kind of large funky pass-through cartridge? Or does it have a cartridge with a cable attaching to an external box like the 2600 Supercharger? I've seen Eduardo's set up on the Coleco but I'm having trouble envisioning what this is all going to look like and where you put the "super games"

[Bakasama]

Is this all going to fit into some kind of large funky pass-through cartridge? Or does it have a cartridge with a cable attaching to an external box like the 2600 Supercharger? I've seen Eduardo's set up on the Coleco but I'm having trouble envisioning what this is all going to look like and where you put the "super games"

 

I've seen concept art for that. It looks like a 2600 Jr. on top of a 7800 when attached. It's just missing all the switches but still has the 7800 cart port. However, the finished product might look very different.

[Atari Joe]

Hmm that's interesting. I'm hoping for something that maintains the 7800's clean lines. But it sounds like an amazing project and I'm very excited to see where this goes. I hope they can pull together a "7800 two" like Eduardo is making a ColecoVision 2 for 2012.

 

I really cant wait to see more game mockups. I want this to be at least as good as the colecovision super game module.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Atari Joe

[DracIsBack]

I know it was mentioned by somebody else that the 7800 strength's were making games like the Legend of Zelda and Space Harrier. A stock 7800 can do Super Mario Bros. but it required a lot of work to so.

 

As I understand it, the issue with doing NES type of games on the 7800 (and 7800 type games on the NES) is that the two systems focus their relatively limited processing power on the exact opposite things.

 

NES - Great at detailed scrolling backgrounds, but lousy at moving a lot of objects/large sprites. Stuff like Super Mario 3 and Kirby's Adventure speak to the strength of the NES.

7800 - Great at moving a lot of objects/large sprites but lousy at detailed scrolling backgrounds. Stuff like Space Harrier, Ballblazer, Rescue on Fractalus and Food Fight would speak to the strength of the 7800.

 

Note: this is not to be construed as X "can't play" the types of games on Y, but it may be more work or there may be compromises.

 

The market success of the NES meant that it was pushed harder in life than the 7800 was. I have no doubt that if an A+ development shop had been given an A+ budget and a mandate to deliver A+, the results we would have seen would probably have far exceeded what we got in market, regardless of how the NES/7800 differ.

 

Would you say in your estimation the 7800 expansion module would be roughly equivalent graphically to what youre doing with the Coleco module or would you say it surpasses it?

 

The Colecovision and the 7800 itself are pretty different architecturally, as I understand it.

 

Coleco would (I think) have the advantage of higher resolution, regardless in most circumstances, unless someone got inventive with the 7800's 320 modes.

 

7800 would typically have more colors, better scrolling and more objects moving around the screen.

 

But I can stand to be corrected by experts.

 

Anyway, here is how good a game with the 7800 module may look (thanks to GroovyBee Super Scroll mode). It is still Maria doing everything, though the CPU gets a little help from our PLD. The mockup is kind of rough, the score area should be ignored, that is something I did in a half hour as a POC. The final game would have some extra detail the walls are lacking the exposed bricks, etc. I am not really an artist...

 

Your Castlevania mockup caught my interest, Ed! That was one game I longed for as a 7800 owner in the late 1980s.

Edited June 3, 2010 by DracIsBack

[Bakasama]

Oh yeah there was some other stuff I forgot mention. With a POKEY, the 7800 have paddle games made for it and also can use multi button Genesis controllers. Of course, games have to be programed to use them.

[opcode]

Would you say in your estimation the 7800 expansion module would be roughly equivalent graphically to what youre doing with the Coleco module or would you say it surpasses it?

 

Neither the CV module nor the 7800 module change graphics. Both system will still look the same. However with more memory you sometimes can do some advanced stuff that wasn't quite possible before.

[Atari Joe]

 

Neither the CV module nor the 7800 module change graphics. Both system will still look the same. However with more memory you sometimes can do some advanced stuff that wasn't quite possible before.

 

 

Well your Super Donkey Kong for the Coleco Super Game Module looks absolutely fantastic Eduardo. I guess having that kind of memory really makes a huge difference. I'm so excited for the SGM and your CV2, I can only hope that I will be as impressed with the results from the 7800 expansion module.

[DracIsBack]

Well your Super Donkey Kong for the Coleco Super Game Module looks absolutely fantastic Eduardo. I guess having that kind of memory really makes a huge difference.

 

That, and it helps to have an video game artisan who cares about every last detail instead of doing what's easiest in order to hit a deadline.

[Atari Joe]

DracIsBack, I have to say you have made some really great well-thought points today. I've gotten alot out of them and youre absolutely right. Guys like Eduardo and retroillucid are true craftsmen, and that more than anything will be the value that will shine through these new expansion modules. It's all about homebrew titles made by people who love what they do.

[GroovyBee]

You can think of the new scroll mode as more like an MMC mapper on the NES. It takes a whole load of mundane processing off the CPU which is always a good thing. If the 7800 had more complex mappers like the NES instead of just simple bank switching things would probably have been much different back in the day .

 

The new scrolling stuff will also help out in 320A/B/C/D mode games too.

 

The development team has basically agreed that the expansion module should go beyond what was originally thought as advanced back in in the day. That means we can create much more interesting games for everybody to enjoy. If the expansion module brings more games and programmers to the 7800 that's a good thing surely? If you don't like it, then vote with your wallet but you'll be missing out on some damn good games.

 

The ProSystem emulator will be updated to support the expansion module shortly.