A Discussion of this forum's policies

[Gorf]

Before this kicks off into a piracy flame war (which I can see that it might) I would like to state the following from Page 2 of the Skunkboard manual "Skunkboard is not authorized to be used in a manner that violates any local laws". kSkunk and Boz condone condem piracy and would never promote SkunkBoards for this use.

Fixed for you

 

Thanks, its been one of those evenings. Suffice to say I now have a cold beer in my hand so normal service will resume...

 

I thought you guys drank it warn across the pond?

 

Back on topic.

Ok, let these guy talk all they want about any subject. You'll be hard pressed to find any post from me agreeing with any form

of censorship. Im a 1st amendment freak all the way. Talk all the shit you want and talk till your tounge falls out. Im the first to

agree with free speech....however, This is a privately own forum and Al can do as he damn well pleases actually. Also, don't be

shocked when an opposing view is brought into the picture.

[SubQMod]

Thanks, its been one of those evenings. Suffice to say I now have a cold beer in my hand so normal service will resume...

 

I thought you guys drank it warn across the pond?

 

....

 

oh no, only the good ales...

 

Spent a few years living in Toronto, Canada, so kinda got into the cold beer deal. Plus working for a US company, cold beer is the only way to do business

[-kZa-]

I thought you guys drank it warn across the pond?

heh, a common misconception. It's fermented warm, drank cold (well, not 5 degrees cold but not room temperature either).

 

Talk all the shit you want and talk till your tounge falls out. Im the first to agree with free speech....however, This is a privately own forum and Al can do as he damn well pleases actually. Also, don't be shocked when an opposing view is brought into the picture.

I'm pretty sure nobody is going to be shocked by that, if everyone agreed there would be no need to discuss the issues

 

Nobody has tried to tell Al what to or what not to do, that's not an issue, I think we all understand it's his call and it seems to me most people don't disagree with the OP's points. I don't really think we're adding anything to the discussion here.

[belboz]

SubQ has addressed this pretty much already better than I can.

 

But yes if an author had specifically asked for protection I am sure Tursi/kskunk would have taken care of them, and it is easy enough for any new title to be written by the developer to detect the skunk and not run on it.

 

It has been awhile since this was discussed on the JagCF but I believe something similar was going to be done.

 

But as I tried to state earlier and the whole point of my original post in here was that the skunk shouldn't be the one Reboot developers problem with testing his ROM code. The skunk is definitely "developer" friendly just as the Alpine and even an Atari Flash cart. Much more developer friendly than a BJL setup for instance. It is a great tool for developing RAM/CD/ROM based titles.

 

 

 

 

So a skunkboard may be able to run all commercial software, except those that authors have specifically ask for a protection (and the upcoming one that will detect Skunkboard and don't want to run on it of course) ? I thought Skunkboard didn't provide commercial rom support and that every commercial running on it would be a kind of "luck" (I don't know if luck is the best term,but my english vocabulary doesn't have the term I have in mind)...

 

Interesting...

[Gorf]

I thought you guys drank it warn across the pond?

heh, a common misconception. It's fermented warm, drank cold (well, not 5 degrees cold but not room temperature either).

 

Talk all the shit you want and talk till your tounge falls out. Im the first to agree with free speech....however, This is a privately own forum and Al can do as he damn well pleases actually. Also, don't be shocked when an opposing view is brought into the picture.

I'm pretty sure nobody is going to be shocked by that, if everyone agreed there would be no need to discuss the issues

 

Nobody has tried to tell Al what to or what not to do, that's not an issue, I think we all understand it's his call and it seems to me most people don't disagree with the OP's points. I don't really think we're adding anything to the discussion here.

 

 

I acussed no one of any such thing. My point was simply that Al will be the ultimate decision maker

regardless of how we like it or not and free speech really has nothing to do with it. Im simply saying

let it rip for all I care.

 

My even bothering with this discussion in the first place had everything to do with all the whinning

about us developers operating as we see fit. I simply defended my position. I did not start the off

topic posts, I simply answered to them.

[promethea]

Ok guys, but let's not re-iterate posts and thoughts that were solved a few pages back again and again.

 

Let me just say that I'm with Doc, since I think all his points are fair and square! Tear down the walls Al!

[doctorclu]

Ok guys, but let's not re-iterate posts and thoughts that were solved a few pages back again and again.

 

Let me just say that I'm with Doc, since I think all his points are fair and square! Tear down the walls Al!

 

Glad you think so! Thanks appreciate the support!

 

... I don't really think we're adding anything to the discussion here.

 

Agreed, points have been made for what we'd actually like to see here, Al has said he had some irons in the fire, so for now, we're basically done here till we can talk to him at a later time. Be patient everyone.

[+poobah]

rant ON:

 

A couple things:

 

1)

Many of the original companies sell off the rights or go defunct, absorbed, etc, in some cases the transfer of the rights to the software become no longer clear or are no longer privately owned either. (in the last 2 cases this would constitute "abandonware")

...

I'll stae again, doing so isn't necessarily "right" or legal (though in some cases it may be legitimate "abandonware"), and I'm not trying to take sides here, just stating some of my oppinions and some information on the matter as far I understand it.

 

No NO NO, a thousand times NO! For the love of god, stop with the abandonware crap.

There is no such thing as abandonware, period, end of sentence, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

*EVERY* game published in our lifetimes is copyrighted and owned by SOMEONE. (and will be long after we are dead and buried)

Until that SOMEONE gives permission, you cannot legally copy it.

No grey area, no mystical rationalizations, nothing. No permission = illegal.

 

I think the US copyright & patent laws are a travesty of the highest degree, but until those laws are changed, we have to abide by them.

 

2) AA is Al's baby. If he says no Jag piracy talk, you need to respect that. No democracy, no voting, it is his to decide. I'm not opposed to trying to change his mind, but lets also keep in mind that the ultimate decision is his.

 

/rant

[doctorclu]

rant ON:

No NO NO, a thousand times NO! For the love of god, stop with the abandonware crap. ...

 

2) AA is Al's baby. If he says no Jag piracy talk, you need to respect that. No democracy, no voting, it is his to decide. I'm not opposed to trying to change his mind, but lets also keep in mind that the ultimate decision is his.

 

/rant

 

Thanks for chiming in and your support for change if it could happen.

 

Don't buy the abandonware bit either. Really this is, if you've been reading, been all about taking what is acceptable on the other Atari hardware boards and letting that be acceptable here. So what applies there would apply here.

 

As for Al and all, if you've also been reading, we've giving Al time, as he requested, to put his board back together and tackle some other irons in the fire. He asked for time, we've giving time.

[JagMod]

rant ON:

No NO NO, a thousand times NO! For the love of god, stop with the abandonware crap. ...

 

2) AA is Al's baby. If he says no Jag piracy talk, you need to respect that. No democracy, no voting, it is his to decide. I'm not opposed to trying to change his mind, but lets also keep in mind that the ultimate decision is his.

 

/rant

 

Thanks for chiming in and your support for change if it could happen.

 

Don't buy the abandonware bit either. Really this is, if you've been reading, been all about taking what is acceptable on the other Atari hardware boards and letting that be acceptable here. So what applies there would apply here.

 

As for Al and all, if you've also been reading, we've giving Al time, as he requested, to put his board back together and tackle some other irons in the fire. He asked for time, we've giving time.

I like how you just omit the most important paragraph of poobah's post.

There is no such thing as abandonware, period, end of sentence, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

*EVERY* game published in our lifetimes is copyrighted and owned by SOMEONE. (and will be long after we are dead and buried)

Until that SOMEONE gives permission, you cannot legally copy it.

No grey area, no mystical rationalizations, nothing. No permission = illegal.

 

It is what this thread is about, crying about different rules for different forums to masquerade the pirating isn't working.

[Mr Morden]

As for Al and all, if you've also been reading, we've giving Al time, as he requested, to put his board back together and tackle some other irons in the fire. He asked for time, we've giving time.

 

And whatever Al decides to ultimatly do, he has my 100% support.

[+remowilliams]

It is what this thread is about, crying about different rules for different forums to masquerade the pirating isn't working.

Thanks, but the minority interpretation of this thread has already been represented. And no further derailment attempts are necessary.

[doctorclu]

I like how you just omit the most important paragraph of poobah's post.

There is no such thing as abandonware, period, end of sentence, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

*EVERY* game published in our lifetimes is copyrighted and owned by SOMEONE. (and will be long after we are dead and buried)

Until that SOMEONE gives permission, you cannot legally copy it.

No grey area, no mystical rationalizations, nothing. No permission = illegal.

 

It is what this thread is about, crying about different rules for different forums to masquerade the pirating isn't working.

 

Covered that JagMod, this thread is really not about piracy, and why I didn't feature the piracy slant. This thread is about giving the Jaguar the same freedom the other threads get. And the other threads are working fine.

 

Don't worry JagMod, I'll make sure MadBodies and your other works are respected just like other developers on other forums are respected. That's simply common courtesy.

Edited June 30, 2009 by doctorclu

[etschuetz]

Yay, my two cents...as worthless as two cents is in this economy, bear with me.

 

Part of my understanding towards the archival of the roms/bins/isos of Jaguar titles on AtariAge is more akin towards bandwidth, and storage space. I have a Jaguar rom on my computer that is 4 mbs in size. Interestingly, my 2600 rom folder is only 3.26mbs and has 542 roms in it. See where I am going here? 1 vs 542. That is a helluva ratio there. Now, imagine AtariAge housed all of the Jaguar titles ever released. Each title ranges from 2 mbs to 4mbs per cart, and then with the CD games, anywere from 10 to 700 mbs. Then top that off with every Jaguar fan, or those curious, started downloading them. Within a matter of only a day or so, AtariAge.com would display a message of exceeded bandwidth. I see no ads running on the main site, let alone the forum. NO ONE signs up and pays for membership. I am guessing a majority of what pays for the site, bandwidth and storage space comes out of Albert's pockets, along with any donations and such. Sounds like a good reason to skip the archiving.

 

About emulation in general. I love my Jaguar, however, I dare not say it is the best out there. It had the potential, but it went no where. All flash, but no funk. The Jaguar Fanboys need to lay off and allow the emulation scene flourish. It needs to. I have a lot of games in emulation, but I also collect the real world systems and games. For me, it is about being able to play them both in emulation with perfection, and to enjoy the real system in my hands with its quirks. Emulation serves a purpose. The real collectors don't brag about their emulated games and systems, they brag about the real systems and games they have. Emulation only serves the purpose of enjoying something that is hard to get, until they can actually get it.

 

I recall reading somewhere that a lot of hardcore collectors fear emulation in regards to a drop in value. Just because the rom image is out there does not mean your precious Trevor McFur is going to drop in value. I guarantee a market for it will always flourish. Demand will always be there. The games and cartridges are no longer being manufactured. Overtime, that cartridge in the collection will deteriorate, and they will wish that the emulation scene did flourish.

 

As a moderator/administrator of a Social Network, I understand Albert's headache. You want conversations to run freely and evolve. You want debates to spark interest. At the same time, you need to keep control over what happens. Going back to a post that someone stated, someone sold their BACKUPS of Jag games on eBay. Now, I understand that AtariAge does NOT want to be the scapegoat for it, but at the same time, the moron will pay for his idiocy. This type of action is unfortunately a by-product of all industries dealing with various Media. VHS, CD-R/RW, DVD-R/RW, MP3, etc. It happens. However, if the honest reason to make the back ups is for personal use, it should not be shunned.

 

I do it myself with movies, music, etc. WhHen I can.

 

In regards to why the other consoles are here, versus the Jaguar...back to the initial point of space, but also the developers. Many of the developers for the Jaguar are still around. And some still hold the copyright to the titles they produced. Now, that can be argued in regards to the other systems on this site. Activision is still around, and flourishing. They put out compilations from time to time. They also absorbed Imagic, and took over the copyrights to there titles. Atari is obviously still kicking, and I am sure they hold copyrights to their original games. Midway owns many of the copyrights to their classics. Etc...etc...etc. However, due to the age of the consoles, I am sure Albert has some form of authorization, or at least an understanding, for what he is doing. Many of these classic games are on aging, and corroding materials. They will not be around for ever. For all I know, He may even have EVERY SINGLE game available on this site in physical form.

 

All in all, if you don't like how something is run...do it yourself. If you think you can create a forum that will be popular and allows open discussion, feel free. However, don't cry when someone knocks on your door with a lawsuit in hand because your site was indicted for contribution to illegal activities. My Social Network I run walks a niche market. Because of the views that community receives from the public, people assume things. Some of those people are individuals that will sign up just to take part in what they assume takes place. However, because those are fallacies of mass assumptions, I have to deal with them all the time. In part to help protect myself as the administrator, I have strict rules and policies in place...even if many members want those types of discussion available. I tell the 840+ members that if they want it, go and start it on their own. If they think they can convince people that theirs is better, then more power to them.

[etschuetz]

Does anyone know what happened to Mr. Morden in Babylon 5?

 

Yes, he was killed, and his head was placed on a pike in the court yard of the Centauri republics capital building towards the end of the Shadow War.

[etschuetz]

One last thing I would like to point out. It was pointed out on this thread late in the game...."page 6 I believe"...about going owning a version, and then just downloading the same game, but for a different platform "Because you already own the game". It "seems" logical, but it isn't. I am not saying the individual that wrote this is wrong, but he made a valid point....

 

My point however, is this. In the recent issues with Music and Movie copying and downloading, the MPAA made a point in regards to "ownership" of the content stored on Media. When you purchase a game, a movie, a music cd, or anything else stored on some form of media, you are not buying that content. You are only buying the media on which to play it. You are not buying that Jaguar game, but the plastic, silcon, and metal that it is stored on. You are not buying Transformers on Blu-Ray, but the cheap plastic and chemicals it was pressed onto. The companies that produces and distribute that content own it, you are "leasing it".

 

What about legally downloaded content, such as music and video through iTunes? If there is no medium on which it is stored when you purchase it, you are actually buying the content, therefore making it officially, and legally yours. Last I heard, this whole debate is still going through the courts as to "who owns the content and medium". It was stated when RealNetworks DVD backup software was being taken to court.

 

The argument brought up was that if the case is we are leasing the content, and only purchasing the medium, the Movie industry, distributors, and such should be liable to "replace" the medium. However, if you lease a car, you don't actually own it...yet are still responsible for it, and what you do with it. You break it, you pay to fix it, or replace it. Same with the DVD, CD, BR Disc, Cart. You break it, you replace it. You may not own the content, but the medium was your responsibility.

 

As Poohba said, the US Copyright laws are atrocious and do not protect the end user as they do the original owner/copyright holder. The industry treats its consumers as criminals before it treats them as actual law abiding consumers.

Edited June 30, 2009 by etschuetz

[potatohead]

I don't think all of what you said is inclusive of the problems we face today, nor is it completely accurate.

 

Eg: Physical media and right of first sale --vs-- digital media copy and right of first sale.

 

When I asked a RIAA representative about this point; namely, are we buying a license or a personal copy? The answer was personal copy, in both the case of media and digital download. The dilemma is they want the best of both a license and a leased copy, while they actually sell a physical copy. The whole thing is messy. They don't even have the right answers because I have them on record saying I am completely free to both copy and transcode my purchased works, while they broadcast messages saying that's not legal all the time.

 

And there's another element in play here too that deserves to be aired on this thread.

 

I almost always DO NOT invest in media that is not open enough to archive and transcode. I've got some solid reasons why and here they are:

 

It's not for sharing purposes, but simply to insure my investment is there for me until I decide to part with it. This stuff is expensive, and often does not endure due to either the fragile nature of the media it's distributed on, lack of access to DRM systems over longer periods of time, or systems becoming obsolete.

 

For a DVD/CD kind of work, that means I get to put it on a hard disk and play it from there, and keep my master somewhere nice and safe. For licensed software, that means being able to clone the machine identifier that the software is keyed to. For games, it's eventually emulation / backup, or something where the investment can be protected for the long haul.

 

If it's something more onerous than that, I simply do not purchase --ever. Maybe rent or borrow, but that's it. I want nothing to do with it, as I feel I've bought essentially nothing, or worry that I don't know what I bought, or fear being exploited because of it. The latter is worse actually than loss, IMHO.

 

Open is important to me, not to copy, collect, share, etc... It's for full appreciation and use of those investments I choose to make. It's also to learn, tinker and explore the tech. Black boxes are uninteresting to me, and if permitted to become ubiquitous, dangerous in a lot of ways. It's also to insure that my own investments in skills, means and methods are not tied to some corporate board room somewhere too.

 

Open is also important because the potential exists for ordinary people to just do stuff they want to do, without having to ask permission to do so. Someday, some kid somewhere might ask, "how does it work?" and not get an answer, if we don't have some degree of this kind of thing operating. IMHO, that's a crime to allow to happen. Some authors (and I'm using that term loosely for developer, artist, etc...) use open means and methods to publish and distribute their work and should be allowed to do so, with no penalty for doing so. Frankly, some degree of freedom here is necessary, if we are to innovate and grow stronger based on the works of those that came before. The alternative is draconian fiefdoms and nobody but those running the fiefdoms wants that.

 

Every last person involved with this hobby at anything other than at the most casual of levels was once that kid and asked why and how and were able to get at the answers that very likely put them in the position of being able to create and build today. Think really hard about that.

 

Sadly, this puts people into conflict. Open -vs- closed is the battle of our time. Clearly, it's not all settled yet either. Again, for me it's simply enough to only deal where it's open, and support that with as many dollars and as much interest as I can. Ignore the closed and advocate why. If most things are open enough to look inside, then it's good enough, IMHO. That is exactly what I am doing right now, BTW. Simple advocacy.

 

What I resent most, and this isn't directed at anyone here, or any community here, is the implication that people who want to know how stuff works and to tinker with it are thieves looking for an excuse. Let me flat out say I hate this. Have always hated it, from the time as a kid when I was told I could not own a particular book because I wouldn't understand or use the information contained within it in an approved way.

 

(I stole that book, BTW. Still have it on the shelf, and it reminds me why open matters. That was 5th grade, BTW and it was a book on electronics that literally started me down a very nice career today, along with a few books on computing and that contributed to me being able to build and create today, if nothing but for the joy of doing it.)

 

I don't think the idea that we must punish everyone to get the thieves is sustainable. It's a turn off, and a violation of ordinary human trust and a statement that basically equates to people being bad unless forced to be good. I'm not there people. Never have been, never will be. When I look down deep, really deep, I don't see a bad person there. That has to be true for the majority of people, or the draconian views would have won out long ago. This nation was founded on some ideas very much like the ones I'm expressing here. (USA)

 

For every criminal that knows how to pick a lock and who steals some stereo, or some person who infringes to copy a DVD and sell it, there is a helpful, ethical person who will get somebody out of a difficult jam, or somebody infringing to make a kid safe copy of an expensive media for when they break it learning how to handle it. Is it legal to clone a system ID to run expensive software? Probably not. However, if somebody who paid for that expensive software legally, found their machine broke and the vendor was no help, or gone, would it be ethical to clone that ID? Hell yes it would be. The question is one of harm, and what is equitable and fair. The thief or infringer with intent to distribute causes harm. The helpful person, or person making an archive or learning does not cause harm. That difference absolutely must factor into this discussion at some level, or we are in for some very serious trouble as people.

 

Just think about that too.

 

It's sad to see the state of things surrounding the Jaguar machine in such poor form because of this IP/Copyright/Open/Closed mess. As we move forward, others will be impacted in like kind too. It will be their console, media, computer, whatever and the problems will be the same. I think the Jag scene is indicative of similar things happening in the not to distant future when those generations look back and want to play, do, explore, learn, remember like we did.

 

The bottom line here is that we are forced to either endure a much less robust tech environment, with less innovation and potential for fear of the criminals, or we understand that everything in life has a price and work hard to make sure the right things get done more than they don't. I'm in the latter camp, and will go to the mat for somebody being wronged, and I do expect the same consideration in like kind; thus, my statement up-thread.

 

I can't force that. Nobody can. I do believe it all gets sorted in the end though. Either the tech is open enough to be re-discovered, or it dies in a land fill somewhere. It's that simple. All I do know I can do is to do the advocacy, like I'm doing here, and to support those people, means and methods that are open and enjoy what does make it through this mess and hope others do the same.

 

(goes back to open stuff, watching with interest as this unfolds over time)

Edited June 30, 2009 by potatohead

[Gorf]

It is what this thread is about, crying about different rules for different forums to masquerade the pirating isn't working.

Thanks, but the minority interpretation of this thread has already been represented. And no further derailment attempts are necessary.

 

How is it a derailment when it is clearly related and valid as part of this discussion? I know you would love to ignore that fact

but you cant. Posting ROMS will always be quite relevant to their legality and the discussion thereof. Trying to seperate the two,

even in a discussion about policy of difference between forums does not in anyway exclude this from the discussion.

 

I fully understand that rules are different but so are the communities. It does not have to be like every other community and I for

one find that yet another reason to stick around. I happen to like the unique flavor of the Jag scene even if I have to put up with a

few who want to be dickheads to me over policies I work by.

[Chickybaby]

Everyone can be big heads or witches now and again. Here is where my Dad would probably say 'empty cans rattle the most' and that some people act a certain way because they know it can get a reaction.

[MCHufnagel]

The only reason why the Jag community is different from the communities of other dead systems is because of the constant elitism many in the Jag community have. It's even worse than the Neo Geo fanbase. I can play Neo Geo games on my PS2 or on the PC via Gametap as well as on various emulators. Neo Geo fans don't seem to have any problems with that. I can't play Jag games anywhere except on a Jag. Not many people even know of the Jaguar and even less will pay hundreds of dollars for games or hardware.

 

People will say that the Jag is still alive because of new releases and that makes it different. But new releases only sell a few hundred games at most. Pretty good for a dead system, but still not that vibrant. And the real money in the Jaguar is made by ebayers. I've said that emulation is frowned upon in this community because some fear that their collections will devalue in price. But I've changed my thoughts about that. I think that emulation is frowned upon because of the possibility of more people liking the system. Spoiling the elitism many Jag fans have.

[GT Turbo]

The only reason why the Jag community is different from the communities of other dead systems is because of the constant elitism many in the Jag community have.

 

Yes, you're right, it's nothing else. Some people may their maximun for taking this fuckin elitism alive.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GT Turbo (Jagware)

[dantheratman]

The only reason why the Jag community is different from the communities of other dead systems is because of the constant elitism many in the Jag community have.

 

Yes, you're right, it's nothing else. Some people may their maximun for taking this fuckin elitism alive.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GT Turbo (Jagware)

 

Can someone please translate?

[Mr Morden]

Can someone please translate?

 

Yup, can do. It means "Go look in a mirror."

[The_Laird]

But I've changed my thoughts about that. I think that emulation is frowned upon because of the possibility of more people liking the system. Spoiling the elitism many Jag fans have.

 

What a load of crap. Its amazing the amount of people who claim to have knowledge of the Jaguar community and how it works but really have no clue.

[Christos]

But I've changed my thoughts about that. I think that emulation is frowned upon because of the possibility of more people liking the system. Spoiling the elitism many Jag fans have.

 

What a load of crap. Its amazing the amount of people who claim to have knowledge of the Jaguar community and how it works but really have no clue.

 

I think that's an imperative of the human mind. As a species we try to rationalize the behaviour of others, be it individuals or communities, according to the patterns they exhibit. Unfortunately it is impossible to enter in to the mind of others and discover their thought process, either individual or collective, therefore those rationalizations will sometimes be closer to the truth, sometimes farther but never exactly it.

Having said that, the evidence so far provided by the jaguar community, point towards a thought process that is dissimilar to any other retro console collective. I am not aware of any research being done on such subcultures but if I were a sociologist I'd find it fascinating. Especially the teletourgical rites that need to be performed to enter the community.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Christos