Jump to content
IGNORED

A Discussion of this forum's policies


doctorclu

Recommended Posts

If a community wants to be treated just like every other community then statements like that shouldn't apply.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion as long as they aren't calling any specific person names by using words like "I think".

 

Why are people already starting to make very subtle jabs at others though?

 

I studied psychology and sociology but I think in my personal opinion from what I am observing here and now the words/phrases "adult", "ego", "history", "temper", "respect", "blame", "childish", "attitude", and "self control" have a lot to do with things.

 

I'm seriously am not pointing specific fingers at people in all honesty, but in the years I have been on AA have seen a lot of negativity overall. That's really kept me from getting into the system on the boards here. I know I am not the only one that has been put off by all the arguing and it's probably been people that could really make good contributions that are choosing to stay away for that reason. And it's not even just on this site alone which is really sad because to me it should be a basic enjoyment of video games in general that bring us together not tear us apart.

 

I don't think Things will change for the better unless someone somewhere takes the initiative to take a step in a positive direction to change the "status quo" and not waits for someone else to do it and I do see some people starting to do that which gives me hope for the future in regards to this system.

 

But I've changed my thoughts about that. I think that emulation is frowned upon because of the possibility of more people liking the system. Spoiling the elitism many Jag fans have.

 

What a load of crap. Its amazing the amount of people who claim to have knowledge of the Jaguar community and how it works but really have no clue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But I've changed my thoughts about that. I think that emulation is frowned upon because of the possibility of more people liking the system. Spoiling the elitism many Jag fans have.

 

What a load of crap. Its amazing the amount of people who claim to have knowledge of the Jaguar community and how it works but really have no clue.

Well then, can you explain why the Jaguar community by and large has a disdain for emulation while other communities couldn't care less or even embrace emulation? As far as how the Jaguar community works, from what I've seen in my years here at AA, it doesn't!

 

I think that's an imperative of the human mind. As a species we try to rationalize the behaviour of others, be it individuals or communities, according to the patterns they exhibit. Unfortunately it is impossible to enter in to the mind of others and discover their thought process, either individual or collective, therefore those rationalizations will sometimes be closer to the truth, sometimes farther but never exactly it.

Having said that, the evidence so far provided by the jaguar community, point towards a thought process that is dissimilar to any other retro console collective. I am not aware of any research being done on such subcultures but if I were a sociologist I'd find it fascinating. Especially the teletourgical rites that need to be performed to enter the community.

 

You are correct in assuming that I'm trying to find a rationalization to why many Jaguar fans hate emulation. There really isn't any reason for it. I can see the point of current developers who don't want their work copied. But really, unless someone decides to re-release many of the old games, the only people making profit from the Jaguar are ebay sellers. It's almost like many of these old developers just want to put their Jaguar games far behind them. Yes, I do own a Jaguar and a few games. But to me it's just another system in my collection. I've never found anything worth masturbating over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm reviewing the message traffic for today (just got back from work, and all the traps I had to run afterwards). Quite a day.

 

Trying to take in all that was said, I'll quote probably the best new blood and quote we got today:

 

Yay, my two cents...as worthless as two cents is in this economy, bear with me.

 

Part of my understanding towards the archival of the roms/bins/isos of Jaguar titles on AtariAge is more akin towards bandwidth, and storage space. I have a Jaguar rom on my computer that is 4 mbs in size. Interestingly, my 2600 rom folder is only 3.26mbs and has 542 roms in it. See where I am going here? 1 vs 542. That is a helluva ratio there. Now, imagine AtariAge housed all of the Jaguar titles ever released. Each title ranges from 2 mbs to 4mbs per cart, and then with the CD games, anywere from 10 to 700 mbs. Then top that off with every Jaguar fan, or those curious, started downloading them. Within a matter of only a day or so, AtariAge.com would display a message of exceeded bandwidth. I see no ads running on the main site, let alone the forum. NO ONE signs up and pays for membership. I am guessing a majority of what pays for the site, bandwidth and storage space comes out of Albert's pockets, along with any donations and such. Sounds like a good reason to skip the archiving.

 

About emulation in general. I love my Jaguar, however, I dare not say it is the best out there. It had the potential, but it went no where. All flash, but no funk. The Jaguar Fanboys need to lay off and allow the emulation scene flourish. It needs to. I have a lot of games in emulation, but I also collect the real world systems and games. For me, it is about being able to play them both in emulation with perfection, and to enjoy the real system in my hands with its quirks. Emulation serves a purpose. The real collectors don't brag about their emulated games and systems, they brag about the real systems and games they have. Emulation only serves the purpose of enjoying something that is hard to get, until they can actually get it.

 

I recall reading somewhere that a lot of hardcore collectors fear emulation in regards to a drop in value. Just because the rom image is out there does not mean your precious Trevor McFur is going to drop in value. I guarantee a market for it will always flourish. Demand will always be there. The games and cartridges are no longer being manufactured. Overtime, that cartridge in the collection will deteriorate, and they will wish that the emulation scene did flourish.

 

As a moderator/administrator of a Social Network, I understand Albert's headache. You want conversations to run freely and evolve. You want debates to spark interest. At the same time, you need to keep control over what happens. Going back to a post that someone stated, someone sold their BACKUPS of Jag games on eBay. Now, I understand that AtariAge does NOT want to be the scapegoat for it, but at the same time, the moron will pay for his idiocy. This type of action is unfortunately a by-product of all industries dealing with various Media. VHS, CD-R/RW, DVD-R/RW, MP3, etc. It happens. However, if the honest reason to make the back ups is for personal use, it should not be shunned.

 

I do it myself with movies, music, etc. When I can.

 

In regards to why the other consoles are here, versus the Jaguar...back to the initial point of space, but also the developers. Many of the developers for the Jaguar are still around. And some still hold the copyright to the titles they produced. Now, that can be argued in regards to the other systems on this site. Activision is still around, and flourishing. They put out compilations from time to time. They also absorbed Imagic, and took over the copyrights to there titles. Atari is obviously still kicking, and I am sure they hold copyrights to their original games. Midway owns many of the copyrights to their classics. Etc...etc...etc. However, due to the age of the consoles, I am sure Albert has some form of authorization, or at least an understanding, for what he is doing. Many of these classic games are on aging, and corroding materials. They will not be around for ever. For all I know, He may even have EVERY SINGLE game available on this site in physical form.....

 

A long quote I know, but a worthwhile one. Hits on some points I liked being brought out.

 

1) Jaguar rom size. True, larger than the other retro Atari consoles. I checked my folder of Jaguar roms, BJL loads, etc, came to 240 megs of space. So that gives you an idea of what a good library of Jaguar games would run in space here. Naturally not all of that would go into a library if one were ever created.

 

2) There has been talk about negativity towards emulation. It's true only in the aspect that talking about rom images is frowned on. Emulation would get more "virtual Jaguars" in the hands of people with (at the moment) very high speed PC's and Mac's. Being able to freely talk about where to get some of the more common roms to try out on that setup would give them more to try out on the virtual setup.

 

3) The value of games that are available as roms and as the real thing... a good point. I can play Chase the Chuck Wagon, Air Raid, and Quadrun on my Cuttle Cart 2. Did this stop those games from fetching a hefty price for collectors? No. Maybe the economy might have lowered those prices a bit, but emulation did not dent those collector's prices for the real thing. If anything, available images and emulation made people want the real thing even more.

 

4) Mentions above about people making personal backups for their own personal use. Yes, an idiot made backups of his personal library and sold the originals. I say idiot because those originals are worth having. At the same time too, it is nice to be able to preserve those backups and use copies when you want to play the game extensively.

 

5) Media that is wearing out and talking about copyrights. This is where I can personally relate:

 

Roughly 1994, my friend and I are playing "Return of Heracles" on the Atari 800 for months and months, and finally, the diskette just WEARS out. You could see daylight through worn rings on the diskette, THAT worn out.

Bear in mind, I would not be a regular on the internet for a few years to come. As far as we knew, Atari was dead dead.. we were the last Atari users on Earth.. dead. But we loved this game.

So I called Electronic Arts. I was willing to PAY for another copy. "Sir, we don't, nor have we ever sold Atari games". I was patient with the person, asked if I could speak to someone in their customer support, even archive support. I was willing to PAY for another copy. They basically laughed at me and said no one there would have the time to look into a old copy of Atari games, if they ever made such a game. Now days I would ask for a written statement, or ticket number of the conversation for future reference. I've tried asking other companies about Atari-aged games even as new as Jaguar titles, and I've months talking to lawyers trying to see where copyrights stood on some items that I wanted to get permission to use in some form or fashion. They would look for a bit, and then tell me they couldn't find anything (I knew they had the rights to it) and gave me a link to a website to look up copyright patients which also revealed nothing.

 

Here is what I got out of my experience with Electronic Arts. Atari is yesterday.. it is distant past in a lot of cases. Someday, and it has happened, they might go digging back into the past looking for old copyrights and write new games for new systems with those ideas. (Activition is a good example) Depending on how tactfully things are handled, might even care that their games are being presented somewhere else. Might.

 

Naturally the time a lot of developers get REALLY mad is when money is exchanged especially over copyrighted names of games (as we saw in the case of Combat 2 years ago here on Atariage). Then on the flipside, thanks to some users here, we have games, like Gauntlet on the Atari 800, (where you fly a flying saucer around on the screen and blow stuff up) that would have been lost had it not been for the users that preserved a copy and made it available for all. The original developer was thrilled to see a copy of that remained, and ever played us on the high score club.

 

Sumamry for the above:

1) So a rom library might take a bit more space than they would want to spare here. Depends if you call less than 240 megs a lot.

2) Emulation (as a program), is not generally frowned on, but images would be good to test on emulation. And it is the images that are frowned on.

3) Images or not, collectors will always want the real thing.

4) Since collectors will always want to preserve the original, backing up for personal use should be considered more of a preservation tip than piracy.

5) A lot of the backups you see here are for preservation of the game. How the developer sees that tends to depend on the developer and the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can someone please translate? :ponder:

 

Yup, can do. It means "Go look in a mirror."

 

Understood. You should have said "point a mirror at the toilet" and it would have been a better way to describe you and your boys. Your true colors are showing through as expected Mr Mordo. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) So a rom library might take a bit more space than they would want to spare here. Depends if you call less than 240 megs a lot.

2) Emulation (as a program), is not generally frowned on, but images would be good to test on emulation. And it is the images that are frowned on.

3) Images or not, collectors will always want the real thing.

4) Since collectors will always want to preserve the original, backing up for personal use should be considered more of a preservation tip than piracy.

5) A lot of the backups you see here are for preservation of the game. How the developer sees that tends to depend on the developer and the game.

 

 

Quoting the last bit only, but only really need number 1. It isn't actually the storage space for the roms, but the actual bandwidth users use when downloading those titles. If you have 100 people downloading a 4 mb rom a day with a new 100 people each day for 30 days, that comes to a total around 10 to 11 gigabytes of bandwidth within that month. Now, tack on each of those 100 people are downloading a total of 4 roms each. That easily jumps to 40 or more gbs per month. All of this doesn't take into account for html files, php files, images, etc from the website alone. My numbers are also possibly lower than hell. Depending on the hosting plan that Albert uses, 40 gb/mo could easily cost him a severe arm and a leg.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can someone please translate? :ponder:

 

Yup, can do. It means "Go look in a mirror."

 

Understood. You should have said "point a mirror at the toilet" and it would have been a better way to describe you and your boys. Your true colors are showing through as expected Mr Mordo. :)

 

And when people can't make intelligent points and post something of value, they simply resort to insults and flaming. People, put the ego aside and look at the matter maturely. If not, it is a quick way to get a thread closed, if not completely deleted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And when people can't make intelligent points and post something of value, they simply resort to insults and flaming. People, put the ego aside and look at the matter maturely. If not, it is a quick way to get a thread closed, if not completely deleted.

 

Agreed. Ease up guys and stick to the topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can someone please translate? :ponder:

 

Yup, can do. It means "Go look in a mirror."

 

Understood. You should have said "point a mirror at the toilet" and it would have been a better way to describe you and your boys. Your true colors are showing through as expected Mr Mordo. :)

 

And when people can't make intelligent points and post something of value, they simply resort to insults and flaming. People, put the ego aside and look at the matter maturely. If not, it is a quick way to get a thread closed, if not completely deleted.

 

OK, so you are taking the "high road" then. Understood. The only reason that this site does not host Romz is due to the bandwith issue. So then, what is your stance on this site hosting Scatlogic, 3dSS, and Songbird warez then? I would really like to hear someone step up to the plate and crack that nut. If you can allow Atari roms then why shouldnt't those be fair game as well? :ponder: Thats what I thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, so you are taking the "high road" then. Understood. The only reason that this site does not host Romz is due to the bandwith issue. So then, what is your stance on this site hosting Scatlogic, 3dSS, and Songbird warez then? I would really like to hear someone step up to the plate and crack that nut. If you can allow Atari roms then why shouldnt't those be fair game as well? :ponder: Thats what I thought.

 

Boils down to currently existing companies with their current releases. If they okay it, then so be it. If they don't feel comfortable with it, maybe some form of a "Demo" rom image with limited play time, a couple levels, missing features, etc.

Edited by etschuetz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, so you are taking the "high road" then. Understood. The only reason that this site does not host Romz is due to the bandwith issue. So then, what is your stance on this site hosting Scatlogic, 3dSS, and Songbird warez then? I would really like to hear someone step up to the plate and crack that nut. If you can allow Atari roms then why shouldnt't those be fair game as well? :ponder: Thats what I thought.

 

Boils down to currently existing companies with their current releases. If they okay it, then so be it. If they don't feel comfortable with it, maybe some form of a "Demo" rom image with limited play time, a couple levels, missing features, etc.

 

Want to point out that there are probably a slew of possible legal issues to downloading the roms here. I understand the historical concept to the site, and appreciate it. But downloading freely and keeping the roms on your computer raises some issues. Granted, issues I don't worry about. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, so you are taking the "high road" then. Understood. The only reason that this site does not host Romz is due to the bandwith issue. So then, what is your stance on this site hosting Scatlogic, 3dSS, and Songbird warez then? I would really like to hear someone step up to the plate and crack that nut. If you can allow Atari roms then why shouldnt't those be fair game as well? :ponder: Thats what I thought.

 

Good question and thanks for asking. Following the example of the other Atari hardware threads, if the author of those current games (in which the developers are still amoung us all the time) released the game themselves on the forums here, we would believe we could freely distribute that rom, or in a fashion that they say it can be distributed.

 

Take Surrounded by 3dSS. Released publically at Christmas two years ago, this is an example of a game you can freely enjoy and distribute. There are strict rules on how it needs to be stored and loaded, but otherwise freely available.

 

We have seen free games released here by the Reboot team, Removers, Orion, Matthias, and other current developers as well, just like we see on the other Atari hardware forums.

 

Simply put, if the developer releases the romz :) themselves, those are free to be enjoyed. If not, we wait till those current developers release those roms. Again, simply common courtesy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Boils down to currently existing companies with their current releases. If they okay it, then so be it. If they don't feel comfortable with it, maybe some form of a "Demo" rom image with limited play time, a couple levels, missing features, etc.

 

I think the concept of crippleware is awesome. And shareware. For a lot of the cases where the Jaguar has a $80 game, or higher, I always thought it would be awesome to have a demo that let you play the first level to get you hooked.

 

I know there have been many Macintosh and Newton games that I played till I absolutely wanted more of the game. A lot of shareware titles bought. I know that could work on the Jaguar as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is my point. "IF" You get consent from the developer, it is a non-issue. Otherwise I personally have a strong problem w/ it. :cool:

 

Glad you agree. That common courtesy is what we see on the other Atari hardware boards, and what we'd like to see here as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Boils down to currently existing companies with their current releases. If they okay it, then so be it. If they don't feel comfortable with it, maybe some form of a "Demo" rom image with limited play time, a couple levels, missing features, etc.

 

I think the concept of crippleware is awesome. And shareware. For a lot of the cases where the Jaguar has a $80 game, or higher, I always thought it would be awesome to have a demo that let you play the first level to get you hooked.

 

I know there have been many Macintosh and Newton games that I played till I absolutely wanted more of the game. A lot of shareware titles bought. I know that could work on the Jaguar as well.

 

 

I personally remember picking up the shareware versions of Wolf3d, Doom, Rise of the Triad and quite a few others on PC back in the day for about $5 and later made the purchase. I hear you my friend, this is the beauty of the skunk (hopefully). :cool:

Edited by dantheratman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is my point. "IF" You get consent from the developer, it is a non-issue. Otherwise I personally have a strong problem w/ it. :cool:

 

Glad you agree. That common courtesy is what we see on the other Atari hardware boards, and what we'd like to see here as well.

 

 

I also cannot express strongly enough, the "IF" factor. :cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well then, can you explain why the Jaguar community by and large has a disdain for emulation while other communities couldn't care less or even embrace emulation? As far as how the Jaguar community works, from what I've seen in my years here at AA, it doesn't!

 

So if a system does not have an emulator so you can downlaod ROMs and upload them it's not viable?

And because of this it does not deserve community status and everyone involved are elitists?

That's got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

 

The fact is, even I wanted to do an emulator for the Jaguar for development to eliminate a Jag on my

PC desk. However, the Jaguar is so screwed up hardware wise its almost impossible to cover every bug.

It certainly can be done but it's no easy task. Lucky for all of you that do want to see a working emulator,

there is someone working on it that knows the Jaguar very well. I'll let that person reveal their self if

they wish to be known.

 

Fact is, I helped write MAME and the Midway Astrocade based hardware emulation. I also wrote a stand

alone Astrocade Arcade/Home system emulator that I never converted to WIN(hope to put it on the Jag

too someday.) Emulators have their place but not as a pirating tool.

 

The fact is, I have never once wore out a cart slot on any console I have ever owned. I've been playing for

almost 32 years now. Even the most horrid slot like in the NES only needed cleaning( a bit too often actually.)

 

I for one also have no problem with folks using an emulator to run games THEY OWN or have been AUTHORIZED

by the owners the right to do so. It's when you have the vultures slobbering over the release of the latest dumps

that really annoys me.

 

I don't think that stance is either elitist or unreasonable.

Edited by Gorf
Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, so you are taking the "high road" then. Understood. The only reason that this site does not host Romz is due to the bandwith issue. So then, what is your stance on this site hosting Scatlogic, 3dSS, and Songbird warez then? I would really like to hear someone step up to the plate and crack that nut. If you can allow Atari roms then why shouldnt't those be fair game as well? :ponder: Thats what I thought.

 

Good question and thanks for asking. Following the example of the other Atari hardware threads, if the author of those current games (in which the developers are still amoung us all the time) released the game themselves on the forums here, we would believe we could freely distribute that rom, or in a fashion that they say it can be distributed.

 

Take Surrounded by 3dSS. Released publically at Christmas two years ago, this is an example of a game you can freely enjoy and distribute. There are strict rules on how it needs to be stored and loaded, but otherwise freely available.

 

We have seen free games released here by the Reboot team, Removers, Orion, Matthias, and other current developers as well, just like we see on the other Atari hardware forums.

 

Simply put, if the developer releases the romz :) themselves, those are free to be enjoyed. If not, we wait till those current developers release those roms. Again, simply common courtesy.

so what developers have released Jaguar ROMs??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='doctorclu' post='1783528' date='Tue

maybe a list would be good to have, so everybody knows.

 

You're the avid Jaguar collector who knows the ins and outs of the Jaguar world. What games have you seen released publically on the internet?

 

Aside from Buddy Buddies' experience, I think a good starting list is the one made on Jaguar Sector 2 (the wiki section) that shows all the loadable roms and bjl images that will work on the Skunkboard. Will supply that link when I find that page again. :)

Edited by doctorclu
Link to comment
Share on other sites

so what developers have released Jaguar ROMs??

 

I said "romz" to be cute. There have been games released, alright? CD, rom image, BJL programs, they are all various media.

maybe a list would be good to have, so everybody knows.

 

You're the avid Jaguar collector who knows the ins and outs of the Jaguar world. What games have you seen released publically on the internet?

Id have though that you would have compiled a list since you are hell-bent on changing the AA policies and rules. As far as i know, i cant think of a single commercial Jaguar ROM where the author has released it publically with his permission and consent. Can you name any?Maybe there are a few that i forgot?. As far as other types like homebrew demos,bjl programs,im sure there is a nice list that could be compiled. :)

Edited by BuddyBuddies
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as i know, i cant think of a single commercial Jaguar ROM where the author has released it publically with his permission and consent. Can you name any?

Well, Jeff Minter not only gave his grace to running copies of Tempest 2000 and Defender 2000 on emulation, for a while at least he hosted links to them along with the T2K emulator.

 

Now, I'm not sure that they were 'his' to actually give away...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Id have though that you would have compiled a list since you are hell-bent on changing the AA policies and rules. As far as i know, i cant think of a single commercial Jaguar ROM where the author has released it publically with his permission and consent. Can you name any?Maybe there are a few that i forgot?. As far as other types like homebrew demos,bjl programs,im sure there is a nice list that could be compiled. :)

 

Oh my apologies, I thought you were actually offering your extensive Jaguar expertise in making a resource for this topic, but you were just wanted to take a pot shot at Doctor Clu. Ok... gotcha. :)

 

Hmmm... let's see, (flips through cards), we've covered that Jaguar roms probably won't be featured here due to bandwidth.. check...

 

... already covered that we have a good idea who the current developers are, which programs are generally known to be free release and which ones aren't.. check.

 

And we've covered that we would like to open this forum up to the same freedoms and approach to the platforms that the other systems get. A lot generally agree this is a reasonable request.

 

So now we wait for Al to get his irons taken care of while a few rehash old pot shots at things we've already covered.

 

Or you can stand by reasonably, like we are, and wait to see what Al decides from the last eight pages of this conversation.

Edited by doctorclu
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...