Atari: Diminishing Efforts?

[akator]

Yeah, he is just like a person who starts a topic that states 2+2=4.01.

 

So the replies are also freedom of speech and factual where as his freedom of speech is non-factual.

 

Would you be less annoyed if the topic title was "Atari: Diminishing Returns?"

[atariksi]

Yeah, he is just like a person who starts a topic that states 2+2=4.01.

 

So the replies are also freedom of speech and factual where as his freedom of speech is non-factual.

 

Would you be less annoyed if the topic title was "Atari: Diminishing Returns?"

 

It's nothing to do with whether someone is annoyed or not. It's a FALSE statement. Diminishing returns is also false. What proof do you have? I know you have freedom of speech but that's not the samething as proof.

[CARTRIDGE STEALER]

Just to make it clear -- you are only talking about recorded sales figures not which machine has superior hardware. Marketing works that way. People can market crap in millions and some good stuff hardly sells.

There are no recorded sales figures for the Colecovision or the 5200. Anybody saying one sold more than the other is talking out their $#s.

 

Allan

 

I knew alot more people with a coleco than a 5200. the kids I knew with a 5200 had no one to trade thier games with. the coleco kids did.

[+cvga]

Just to make it clear -- you are only talking about recorded sales figures not which machine has superior hardware. Marketing works that way. People can market crap in millions and some good stuff hardly sells.

There are no recorded sales figures for the Colecovision or the 5200. Anybody saying one sold more than the other is talking out their $#s.

 

Allan

 

I knew alot more people with a coleco than a 5200. the kids I knew with a 5200 had no one to trade thier games with. the coleco kids did.

 

I would have guessed that the Colecovision outsold the 5200 also. There are ways to add validity to our assumptions. Currently on eBay there are 14 Atari 5200 systems for sale (I searched Atari +5200 and looked at the number reported as systems) compared to 36 Colecovisions (search of Colecovision and using the number reported by eBay as systems). You can disagree with the search, timing, find systems listed that aren't counted as a system, etc but I would think if we update this over time, we'll be able to at least agree if one system outsold the other.

[kool kitty89]

Ah, the 7800. I was onboard for this video console version of the Titanic. What games were initially released? Why, THE SAME GAMES AS FOR THE 5200 AND 2600, for the most part, or games that should have come out for the 5200- like Xevious and Galaga. No wonder 5200 owners felt burned. And hey, let's release it AFTER the NES had a deathgrip on the market that not even Sega could overcome at that point. Add to that the cheap efforts (at least the 5200 had colorful and nicely-done labels and booklets), and the lack of released genres that were obviously popular (where was the Boss/Level/Side-Scrollers? The RPGs?), and the 7800 was the perfect example of how not to do it. I had hoped, and hoped...then finally wised up and went back to the CV. No wonder I've gone through so much trouble to get my 5200 up and running with homemade controllers, even.

 

First realize that Atari after 1984 was under Tramiel and Atari Corp. was completely different from the old Atari Inc.

 

In any case, the 7800 was most definitely not launched after the NES owned the market (same for the Master System), it was launched only a couple months after Nintendo had made their full launch in mid 1986 (not the limited 1985 test markets). N had not yet owned the market, they had a head start, but they were just begining. The 7800 was killed by lack of advertizing and software sopport. (Sega's marketing strategy in the US was also weak in this period, this all changed in 1990/91 of course)

 

In spite of this the 7800 seems to have sold rather well, from Curt's recent sales doccuments it apears to be over 3.7 million units sold in the US through 1990. (87 and 88 seeming to be the strongest years, selling over 1M units each) I don't know what the 5200's figures are so we can't compare them, it seemes to have outsold the Intelevision at least. (possibly outsold the Master System in the US market as well, but I haven't seen figures for that either)

[atariksi]

Just to make it clear -- you are only talking about recorded sales figures not which machine has superior hardware. Marketing works that way. People can market crap in millions and some good stuff hardly sells.

There are no recorded sales figures for the Colecovision or the 5200. Anybody saying one sold more than the other is talking out their $#s.

 

Allan

 

I knew alot more people with a coleco than a 5200. the kids I knew with a 5200 had no one to trade thier games with. the coleco kids did.

 

I would have guessed that the Colecovision outsold the 5200 also. There are ways to add validity to our assumptions. Currently on eBay there are 14 Atari 5200 systems for sale (I searched Atari +5200 and looked at the number reported as systems) compared to 36 Colecovisions (search of Colecovision and using the number reported by eBay as systems). You can disagree with the search, timing, find systems listed that aren't counted as a system, etc but I would think if we update this over time, we'll be able to at least agree if one system outsold the other.

 

Current ebay searches can't be used as evidence for what happened to sales of CV vs. 5200 in 1980s unless there's a huge discrepancy. Many people may prefer to keep their 5200s and may be putting their CV on Ebay to get rid of it (after realizing it's inferior to CV). Now if 5200 stuff was like 10 items per day and CV was 1000+, perhaps you can say it was more widespread.

[+thegoldenband]

FWIW, I found a hint of sales figures for the 5200 in a Washington Post article from 1984 ("Atari Introduces Game In Attempt for Survival", May 22, 1984), which talks about the introduction of the 7800 (!). The final line of the article is:

 

"The company has stopped producing its 5200 SuperSystem games player, more than 1 million of which were sold."

 

One might argue semantics, but to me, that sentence implicitly means "more than 1 million, but less than 2 million", since a company would naturally use a larger number if they could truthfully do so.

Edited July 24, 2009 by thegoldenband

[+thegoldenband]

Some more info. Here's an AP report from April 20, 1983 ("Video Game Maker Says 1st-Quarter Profit More Than Tripled") about Coleco:

 

Arnold C. Greenberg, Coleco's president and chief executive, said more than 500,000 ColecoVision players were shipped during the first quarter, nearly equaling the number shipped in all of 1982.

 

And a New York Times article from August 1, 1983 ("Coleco Strong In Marketing"):

 

Since its introduction last fall, Colecovision has sold about 1.4 million units, according to the Video Marketing Game Letter, an industry newsletter. Of that total, about 900,000 were sold this year, compared with 800,000 units by Atari and 300,000 by Mattel.

 

And another AP report, this one from April 17, 1984 (no title given):

 

"First quarter sales of ColecoVision were substantial, although much less that those for the year ago quarter," Greenberg said in a prepared statement. He said the company has sold 2 million ColecoVision games since its introduction in 1982.

 

The language is imprecise, but from context I'm sure "games" means "consoles" here.

[shadow460]

Hah! I caught this topic right after one of my controllers broke again...

 

I had to fight the system to get it to display, and now I have to fight the controllers to make them work. I really wanna like the system, but I just can't.

 

Anyway, I think each system that I have (I do not own a Jag) has better capabilities than the last. That's a no brainer. But, comparing the increase in system potential from generation to generation, I feel that Atari is the company that increased the most each time a new system came out. Even for the 5200, I think the theoretical leap over the 2600 in capability was great--it just wasn't well implemented, and as was stated the 2600 was selling too well to drop.

[atariksi]

Hah! I caught this topic right after one of my controllers broke again...

 

I had to fight the system to get it to display, and now I have to fight the controllers to make them work. I really wanna like the system, but I just can't.

 

Anyway, I think each system that I have (I do not own a Jag) has better capabilities than the last. That's a no brainer. But, comparing the increase in system potential from generation to generation, I feel that Atari is the company that increased the most each time a new system came out. Even for the 5200, I think the theoretical leap over the 2600 in capability was great--it just wasn't well implemented, and as was stated the 2600 was selling too well to drop.

 

I guess you are referring to joysticks that weren't "well implemented" because system is well implemented. If it was backward compatible with 2600, it would have helped in sales.

[phuzaxeman]

.... and as was stated the 2600 was selling too well to drop.

and thats the thing the 5200 could have done to do very well. be completely 2600 backward compatable. look at history with the past systems of the songy ps1 and ps2. 7800 was already too late.

[+thegoldenband]

and thats the thing the 5200 could have done to do very well. be completely 2600 backward compatable.

Yes indeed. I remember the disappointment on learning that the 5200 couldn't play 2600 games, and that no adapter was forthcoming. I think I may have even gone so far as to call Atari to ask about it!

 

Based on my researches, it seems to me that the 5200 vs. CV sales issue is more or less settled, and that the CV outsold the 5200 by roughly 2:1. To my mind, that's neither a huge margin (landslide) nor a trivial one. Of course, it also reflects the fact that the CV was available for a longer period of time. (The 5200 was discontinued in May 1984, and the CV lasted until roughly October 1985.)

[kool kitty89]

So going by the quote/figures on here the Colocovision and 5200 sold substancially less than the 7800 (>3.7 million by Curt Vendel's recentle posted sales charts) diespite its limited library, late release, and limited marketing/advertizements. (granted it was around a lot longer, from '86-92, not counting the limited '84 release, granted sales after '89 tapered off sharply, with less than 100,000 sold in 1990 '87/88 being by far the strongest years, though '89 wasn't too bad, and '86 was relatively small, but it was only on the market for less than 1/2 of that year)

[phuzaxeman]

and thats the thing the 5200 could have done to do very well. be completely 2600 backward compatable.

Yes indeed. I remember the disappointment on learning that the 5200 couldn't play 2600 games, and that no adapter was forthcoming. I think I may have even gone so far as to call Atari to ask about it!

 

Based on my researches, it seems to me that the 5200 vs. CV sales issue is more or less settled, and that the CV outsold the 5200 by roughly 2:1. To my mind, that's neither a huge margin (landslide) nor a trivial one. Of course, it also reflects the fact that the CV was available for a longer period of time. (The 5200 was discontinued in May 1984, and the CV lasted until roughly October 1985.)

i've read numerous articles that the 5200 outsold colecovision at the time atari stopped the 5200 production.

[+thegoldenband]

Well, that may be. As they say on Wikipedia, "citation needed": can you point us to a verifiable source?

 

I've found very little in the way of sales figures for the 5200, compared to the CV which seems reasonably well-documented. The "over 1 million" figure for the 5200's total sales seems to come directly from the company, but so does the "2 million" figure for the CV.

 

OTOH, the CV was definitely selling fewer units in the first quarter of 1984, right before the 5200 was discontinued, than it had been in the first quarter of 1983.

 

I have some vintage gaming magazines from the period as well, and I'll check to see if any of them have info.

Edited July 30, 2009 by thegoldenband

[+Allan]

Well, that may be. As they say on Wikipedia, "citation needed": can you point us to a verifiable source?

 

I've found very little in the way of sales figures for the 5200, compared to the CV which seems reasonably well-documented. The "over 1 million" figure for the 5200's total sales seems to come directly from the company, but so does the "2 million" figure for the CV.

 

OTOH, the CV was definitely selling fewer units in the first quarter of 1984, right before the 5200 was discontinued, than it had been in the first quarter of 1983.

 

I have some vintage gaming magazines from the period as well, and I'll check to see if any of them have info.

Until documents like what Curt posted from Atari about the 7800 and 2600, consider the matter unanswered. Although there are those news articles, we won't know for sure until both Coleco and Atari sales figures are found from both companies.

 

Allan

[CV Gus]

It's strange that people cannot accept the idea that the CV outsold the 5200. Nobody seems to have a problem with the NES having outsold the 7800, after all.

 

There were a number of reasons why the 5200 lost out- although, unlike the poor 7800, it was NOT a massacre:

 

1) The 2600. In any field, it's hard to follow up something that was a huge hit. It also took resources, time, and effort away from the 5200. It is interesting to wonder how the 5200 would've done if the CV had never been; would the 2600 have still badly hurt it?

 

2) The crummy controllers. To this day, bleah.

 

3) The 5200 had a "been there, done that" feel. Especially since the pack-in game, Super Breakout, was really no better than the 2600 version, which was actually better because of the paddles. And the 5200 Space Invaders was inferior to the 2600.

 

4) First impressions. Overall, the initial batch of CV games were better-looking and more unique than the 5200's. This too gave the CV an important head start.

[jetset]

It's strange that people cannot accept the idea that the CV outsold the 5200. Nobody seems to have a problem with the NES having outsold the 7800, after all.

 

There were a number of reasons why the 5200 lost out- although, unlike the poor 7800, it was NOT a massacre:

 

1) The 2600. In any field, it's hard to follow up something that was a huge hit. It also took resources, time, and effort away from the 5200. It is interesting to wonder how the 5200 would've done if the CV had never been; would the 2600 have still badly hurt it?

 

2) The crummy controllers. To this day, bleah.

 

3) The 5200 had a "been there, done that" feel. Especially since the pack-in game, Super Breakout, was really no better than the 2600 version, which was actually better because of the paddles. And the 5200 Space Invaders was inferior to the 2600.

 

4) First impressions. Overall, the initial batch of CV games were better-looking and more unique than the 5200's. This too gave the CV an important head start.

 

Agreed for the most part, except for the controllers, and the "been there done that" part. Yes Super Breakout absolutely. But many of the CV games were conversions of 2nd rate knock-offs. Ladybug? Mouse Trap? I liked them better when they were called Pac-Man. Carnival? I'd prefer shooting down Space Invaders. Slither? Give me the real thing....Centipede. And, the "been there done that" thing is about as lame today as the controller issue. That was the whole appeal of BOTH systems was having arcade games at home and seeing how close they were to the arcade. Everyone saying how "ugh, Missile Command was OLD when the 5200 came out." "Pac-Man? even older." So the F!!! what? THAT's what people wanted. To this day when some homebrewer comes up with a new game or a hack it's a new arcade conversion. Look at the PacMan collection for the CV! How excited is everyone for that? Pretty excited I'd say.

Still there's no doubt the CV outsold the 5200. That's not the measure of how good something is. Wanna compare how many units Britney Spears' debut album sold compared to Jimi Hendrix?

But yes, 100% Super Breakout was a bad choice. Had Atari packed in PacMan, Defender, Centipede, hell even Space Invaders...the 5200 would have fared much better. Or imagine Atari somehow had the rights to release the Donkey Kong from the A8 line as a pack in.

As far as better looking...maybe. I don't know what the CV launch titles were. I would put Defender up against any of them. Centipede as well.

What were the CV launch titles anyway?

[atarian63]

and thats the thing the 5200 could have done to do very well. be completely 2600 backward compatable.

Yes indeed. I remember the disappointment on learning that the 5200 couldn't play 2600 games, and that no adapter was forthcoming. I think I may have even gone so far as to call Atari to ask about it!

 

Based on my researches, it seems to me that the 5200 vs. CV sales issue is more or less settled, and that the CV outsold the 5200 by roughly 2:1. To my mind, that's neither a huge margin (landslide) nor a trivial one. Of course, it also reflects the fact that the CV was available for a longer period of time. (The 5200 was discontinued in May 1984, and the CV lasted until roughly October 1985.)

i've read numerous articles that the 5200 outsold colecovision at the time atari stopped the 5200 production.

Same here. Hardly saw many Cv's back in the day.

[SoundGammon]

Back in '82 when the CV & 5200 were side by side on the shelves at a local department store, I constantly saw customers looking at the 2 systems. You'd hear: "Hey Dad, this one has DONKEY KONG!". No system comparison, no price checking. Now be honest, which GAME would want to play, DONKEY KONG or SUPER BREAKOUT? Had Atari tied in a hot ARCADE game at the time that was unavailable on the 2600, how do you think it would have done? Atari got too BIG headed and thought that whatever we slap the name ATARI to will sell! And for fun, what game do you think Atari should have put in to make it sell?

[atarian63]

Back in '82 when the CV & 5200 were side by side on the shelves at a local department store, I constantly saw customers looking at the 2 systems. You'd hear: "Hey Dad, this one has DONKEY KONG!". No system comparison, no price checking. Now be honest, which GAME would want to play, DONKEY KONG or SUPER BREAKOUT? Had Atari tied in a hot ARCADE game at the time that was unavailable on the 2600, how do you think it would have done? Atari got too BIG headed and thought that whatever we slap the name ATARI to will sell! And for fun, what game do you think Atari should have put in to make it sell?

yes, I do remember some of that, however when people played the cv with that crappy controller disc, they weren't so enthused. Ms. Pac would have been nice or a version of Gyruss. Never got the attraction to DK. It was very hard and not very rewarding.

[phuzaxeman]

Well, that may be. As they say on Wikipedia, "citation needed": can you point us to a verifiable source?

 

I've found very little in the way of sales figures for the 5200, compared to the CV which seems reasonably well-documented. The "over 1 million" figure for the 5200's total sales seems to come directly from the company, but so does the "2 million" figure for the CV.

 

OTOH, the CV was definitely selling fewer units in the first quarter of 1984, right before the 5200 was discontinued, than it had been in the first quarter of 1983.

 

I have some vintage gaming magazines from the period as well, and I'll check to see if any of them have info.

 

here's the link written by george reese. reese has worked with curt vendel and is a atari historian/fanatic.

 

http://www.atari7800.com/xest/history_5200.htm

 

"...Summer of 1982 saw the official release of the Atari 5200. Despite its modest performance on the store shelves, the 5200 was outselling its rival, the Colecovision, by the time they stopped production."

 

a great article btw...

Edited July 31, 2009 by phuzaxeman

[phuzaxeman]

It's strange that people cannot accept the idea that the CV outsold the 5200. Nobody seems to have a problem with the NES having outsold the 7800, after all.

 

There were a number of reasons why the 5200 lost out- although, unlike the poor 7800, it was NOT a massacre:

 

1) The 2600. In any field, it's hard to follow up something that was a huge hit. It also took resources, time, and effort away from the 5200. It is interesting to wonder how the 5200 would've done if the CV had never been; would the 2600 have still badly hurt it?

 

2) The crummy controllers. To this day, bleah.

 

3) The 5200 had a "been there, done that" feel. Especially since the pack-in game, Super Breakout, was really no better than the 2600 version, which was actually better because of the paddles. And the 5200 Space Invaders was inferior to the 2600.

 

4) First impressions. Overall, the initial batch of CV games were better-looking and more unique than the 5200's. This too gave the CV an important head start.

both were great systems but my coleco friends were drooling over space dungeon and real sports baseball back in the day....as far as the been there done that, nothing could be farther from the truth. if you grew up with a 5200 (not buying one later), the 5200 was amazing. the ports were incredible (jungle hunt, pac man, robotron, centipede). space invaders yeah.....super breakout was still a great game in my book. you look at the body of games on the 5200 and it was amazing during that time. i got my coleco in the late 80's as well.....but dang those coleco controllers cause blisters. my fav is still cosmic avenger.

[+Allan]

It's strange that people cannot accept the idea that the CV outsold the 5200.

 

Please don't put words in my mouth. I don't really care which one sold better. There both great systems that have a lot of great games for. I own both of them. While I like the 5200 better I love the Colecovision as well. Is it perfect? No. But it does have a lot of great games.

 

What bothers my is when people try to say things like they are facts when they either are not or that there is just no proof. Why can't people just say 'we don't know' and get over it. When some solid proof materializes, then you can say one system sold better than the other.

 

Allan

[kool kitty89]

Back in '82 when the CV & 5200 were side by side on the shelves at a local department store, I constantly saw customers looking at the 2 systems. You'd hear: "Hey Dad, this one has DONKEY KONG!". No system comparison, no price checking. Now be honest, which GAME would want to play, DONKEY KONG or SUPER BREAKOUT? Had Atari tied in a hot ARCADE game at the time that was unavailable on the 2600, how do you think it would have done? Atari got too BIG headed and thought that whatever we slap the name ATARI to will sell! And for fun, what game do you think Atari should have put in to make it sell?

yes, I do remember some of that, however when people played the cv with that crappy controller disc, they weren't so enthused. Ms. Pac would have been nice or a version of Gyruss. Never got the attraction to DK. It was very hard and not very rewarding.

 

Just having the 5200 version of Pac Man would have been nice as it's awesome compated to the half assed 2600 version. (iirc they did end up switching to Pac Man eventually, but it should have been the game from the start) Of course, it's double sided as Pac man is one of the wors games to shocase the 5200 controller. (could the keypad be used instead of the stick, like frogger)

 

And the Coleco controller didn't have the crappy disc, that was the Intellivision, the CV had the short stalk, knobby, joystick, which worked well as a thumbstick. (except that one's hand tended to cover the buttons, similar problem with using the 5200 stick as a thumbstick)