Remake - Alternate Reality: The City & The Dungeon

[acrin1]

Hi,

 

I've put together some webpages for my Alternate Reality remake project. These provide some idea of the stage I've reached and there are some screenshots (mainly of The City which is what I've worked on in recent months). I've decided to hold back a demo for a bit longer to allow me to add a few more features. Thanks to the great efforts of other AR fans at opening up the mechanics and data from the original AR I've been able to use the real encounter data, graphics and combat mechanics where previously I was just having to make up my own. The project is based on the original Atari 8bit versions of the games.

 

I've also set up a forum for news announcements, general AR remake discussion, suggestions and report bugs.

 

The project webpages are at:

 

http://www.crpgdev.com/

 

and the forum is at:

 

http://arproject.50.forumer.com/

 

Thanks

[Rybags]

Cool.

 

What would be even better is if you can make it in such a way to allow the missing expansions to be developed and added.

[José Pereira]

Hello.

 

Congratulations to your project.

I agree with Rybags. We don't know what would be Arena, Palace,... but if you put an Engine (me again, and my engines) everyone could create their own Alternate Reality. It was a big challenge.

If you want, you can visit "lastninja.lemon64.com" and see the engine someone (Soa) create to this game.

Your project is based on A8 version. Some hipotetic way of put this in real A8 (with emulator)?

 

 

Off topic now, but I take this oportunity to say:

"A game originally designed to A8 and you see all the beauty of it!..."

Why Acrin1 don't use C64 version. Too obviously.

 

José Pereira.

[Velcro_SP]

Nice, a remake of AR using the original graphics or graphics in that style. The programming language you're using, SFML, would seem to indicate that Windows and Linux (and Mac) versions are possible. It is important to support more than just Windows IMO. I hope you are really successful with it, and get something downloadable available soon.

 

I often thought it would be neat and retro and prob. not very hard to paste the 8bit AR graphics into a Doom or Quake mod, with a map like the 8bit version.

[MEtalGuy66]

Yeah.. What would rock is if you updated the original 8-bit game to work with the VideoboardXE and take advantage of its extended graphics capabilities, and remake all the music to optionally use stereo pokeys...

[acrin1]

Hello.

 

Congratulations to your project.

I agree with Rybags. We don't know what would be Arena, Palace,... but if you put an Engine (me again, and my engines) everyone could create their own Alternate Reality. It was a big challenge.

If you want, you can visit "lastninja.lemon64.com" and see the engine someone (Soa) create to this game.

Your project is based on A8 version. Some hipotetic way of put this in real A8 (with emulator)?

 

I'm concentraing on the City and Dungeon content just now but I'm planning additions that could be made. My intention would be that eventually you could edit the existing data and add in new content (e.g filling in the Arena and Palace areas of the City and Dungeon maps). This is some way off just now though.

 

Much as I like the idea of new content going back into a real Atari (or via an emulator) it's out of the scope of what I'm wanting to do. What I'd prefer to see is someone enhance the original Atari versions - but I see that as a separate project. I was really looking forward to Wrathchild's cartridge port.

[acrin1]

Nice, a remake of AR using the original graphics or graphics in that style. The programming language you're using, SFML, would seem to indicate that Windows and Linux (and Mac) versions are possible. It is important to support more than just Windows IMO. I hope you are really successful with it, and get something downloadable available soon.

 

I often thought it would be neat and retro and prob. not very hard to paste the 8bit AR graphics into a Doom or Quake mod, with a map like the 8bit version.

 

I'll look at the Linux and Mac versions once the main version is more advanced. Though I'm using Visual Studio I believe most of the code is generic C++/SFML/OpenGL so shouldn't be hard to port.

[acrin1]

Yeah.. What would rock is if you updated the original 8-bit game to work with the VideoboardXE and take advantage of its extended graphics capabilities, and remake all the music to optionally use stereo pokeys...

I think that would be great but I'll leave that one to someone who is an 8-bit coding / assembler expert.

[acrin1]

That's the first demo based on the Atari 8bit version available for download at:

 

www.crpgdev.com

 

There's a lot to add still but you can move between the City and first level of the Dungeon maps.

 

Comments welcome.

[Rybags]

Cool. Looks just like the original.

 

But... I went for a stroll down an avenue, and just had a succession of encounters and could barely move before having another one.

[eegad]

This is amazingly cool. Demo looks like a good start on it!

 

The first question that comes to mind is : do you plan on allowing players to import their old city / dungeon characters? would LOVE to bring my old character from 20+ years ago into this new version (with additional features like the jobs).

 

Best of luck with this!

[acrin1]

Cool. Looks just like the original.

 

But... I went for a stroll down an avenue, and just had a succession of encounters and could barely move before having another one.

 

I'm not using the proper encounter tables just now but I didn't think encounters were that frequent from my own testing.

 

In the current demo you can leave an encounter immediately by pressing 0 without penalty. There are no encounters at all in the Dungeon level in the demo so you could try that. Next demo will have proper encounter tables and encounter frequency.

 

Thanks.

[acrin1]

The first question that comes to mind is : do you plan on allowing players to import their old city / dungeon characters? would LOVE to bring my old character from 20+ years ago into this new version (with additional features like the jobs).

I hadn't thought of this but I really like the idea. I'll add it to the "suggestions" topic on the AR Project forum.

[Rybags]

Would you be able to do a version where you have more turn angles available?

 

It would be interesting to play, given that (supposedly) the original game engine had the ability to do more than just the 90 degree turns we ended up with.

[NRV]

Would you be able to do a version where you have more turn angles available?

 

It would be interesting to play, given that (supposedly) the original game engine had the ability to do more than just the 90 degree turns we ended up with.

 

remember that with that change, probably, you are going to complicate the collision checks and also how to determinate over what tile is really the player (you now can touch 4 tiles at a time)..

 

hmmm.. so maybe we can hack the original to do "smooth" rotations and strafe?

[acrin1]

Would you be able to do a version where you have more turn angles available?

 

It would be interesting to play, given that (supposedly) the original game engine had the ability to do more than just the 90 degree turns we ended up with.

 

remember that with that change, probably, you are going to complicate the collision checks and also how to determinate over what tile is really the player (you now can touch 4 tiles at a time)..

Funny you should mention this I was thinking it about it just the other day... At the moment I'd class my code as pseudo 3D. There is no real collision detection as such. I just update a value to represent how far across a map cell you are and check what's in the next cell when the edge of the current cell is reached.

[latino.ad7]

Hi,

 

It's incredible to see an effort like this one. I was always wondering why a gem like AR was never resurrected. It's been 25 years!!! Yea, it's origianlly dated 1984!

 

Anyway good luck with your efforts!

 

A couple of comments:

1. A nice, impressive demo. Definiately a good start. I also had tons of encounters in the City, while Dungeon was without the encounters (good to explore and see). I think bar in the Dungeon is not mapped correctly.

2. My initial impression was... why insist on presenting it using the... old... ancient really 8-bit graphics and sounds? Someone here mentioned Doom or Quake mod, which seems to be an (almost) open source and popular to use by fans. In other words, why not resurrect AR using today's gaming standards (engine, graphics etc.)

 

There were a lot of plans for AR back in the old days. Such a project might incoporate these plans, which never saw daylight. So:

3. Multiplayer. I think I remember reading that the owner of the Palace was eant to be an NPC first, soon to be replaced by a PC. Also the whole "big" idea about AR evolved around multiplayer, which was but a dream at that time! Now it's a popular solution.

4. Yes, only 2 parts were made, so this project might include the other parts (Palace, Arena). We might onyl guess what would they be like, yet the vision might be based on the "best guess" and dedicated to what that old game might have been.

5. I'd say go further than that and implement some modifications/improvements to the old gui/mechanics. The current game seems like almost like a "copy" of the old AR.

 

Well, it's easy to suggest and come up with ideas. Difficult to code them and work on the game. What you do is really impressive.

Edited August 7, 2009 by latino.ad7

[Albert]

Wow, I have to say this is truly fantastic! Alternate Reality on the 8-bit is one of my all-time favorite games. It was a remarkable feat for the time and even today is still a unique experience that really hasn't been duplicated as far as I'm aware. I'd love to see a Mac version, but I'd be happy to run the Windows version in virtual machine (Fusion). I'll play around with the demo this weekend.

 

..Al

[Rybags]

I think it's a good idea to remain within the original spirit/feel of the game.

 

A Doom or Quake customised to reflect the AR maps wouldn't be AR, simple as that.

 

About all I'd do is spruce the graphical look up a little, make the interface easier, and maybe provide the option for more rotation angles.

[gambler172]

Great....................

greetings Walter

[acrin1]

Hi,

 

It's incredible to see an effort like this one. I was always wondering why a gem like AR was never resurrected. It's been 25 years!!! Yea, it's origianlly dated 1984!

 

Anyway good luck with your efforts!

 

A couple of comments:

1. A nice, impressive demo. Definiately a good start. I also had tons of encounters in the City, while Dungeon was without the encounters (good to explore and see). I think bar in the Dungeon is not mapped correctly.

2. My initial impression was... why insist on presenting it using the... old... ancient really 8-bit graphics and sounds? Someone here mentioned Doom or Quake mod, which seems to be an (almost) open source and popular to use by fans. In other words, why not resurrect AR using today's gaming standards (engine, graphics etc.)

 

There were a lot of plans for AR back in the old days. Such a project might incoporate these plans, which never saw daylight. So:

3. Multiplayer. I think I remember reading that the owner of the Palace was eant to be an NPC first, soon to be replaced by a PC. Also the whole "big" idea about AR evolved around multiplayer, which was but a dream at that time! Now it's a popular solution.

4. Yes, only 2 parts were made, so this project might include the other parts (Palace, Arena). We might onyl guess what would they be like, yet the vision might be based on the "best guess" and dedicated to what that old game might have been.

5. I'd say go further than that and implement some modifications/improvements to the old gui/mechanics. The current game seems like almost like a "copy" of the old AR.

 

Well, it's easy to suggest and come up with ideas. Difficult to code them and work on the game. What you do is really impressive.

 

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

 

There's aren't currently any encounters on the Dungeon level and the only special location that has an image attached is the Damon & Pythias at the beginning. I'll add these Dungeon features for the next demo.

 

I plan to add better graphics , engine and interface over time but want to concentrate on putting all the main features of the game in first. What I've been working on just recently is making it easier to define alternative textures and backgrounds so you can have multiple media options (E.g classic, enhanced etc). I might offer a choice of media in the next demo as an example of how this can be done.

 

One problem I have though is that I've not found anyone in the past who is interested in updating the graphics. The wall textures I think I could manage but I'd struggle to redraw the encounter graphics. Other people have asked about me using proper 3D models for the characters but this would again require someone to build decent 3D models and would require me to write a lot of code that I would probably find difficult - my programming isn't up to putting together a modern 3D engine.

 

My main priority though is to at least match the original games. My time is limited so I have to be quite choosy about what to add just now. Once the main coding is all in place I'll really start looking at more significant changes (available as options).

[Rybags]

A classic and enhanced version system sounds good.

 

I'm sure if you were to rip the original encounter character graphics and put the word out here for rework for an enhanced version, you'd get plenty of takers to do some new ones.

[latino.ad7]

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

 

There's aren't currently any encounters on the Dungeon level and the only special location that has an image attached is the Damon & Pythias at the beginning. I'll add these Dungeon features for the next demo.

 

I plan to add better graphics , engine and interface over time but want to concentrate on putting all the main features of the game in first. What I've been working on just recently is making it easier to define alternative textures and backgrounds so you can have multiple media options (E.g classic, enhanced etc). I might offer a choice of media in the next demo as an example of how this can be done.

 

One problem I have though is that I've not found anyone in the past who is interested in updating the graphics. The wall textures I think I could manage but I'd struggle to redraw the encounter graphics. Other people have asked about me using proper 3D models for the characters but this would again require someone to build decent 3D models and would require me to write a lot of code that I would probably find difficult - my programming isn't up to putting together a modern 3D engine.

 

My main priority though is to at least match the original games. My time is limited so I have to be quite choosy about what to add just now. Once the main coding is all in place I'll really start looking at more significant changes (available as options).

 

That sounds reasonable. The initiative is great and I bet it takes a lot of time and efforts. A lot of respect to yuo for even thinking of such a project. I know how much time these things can take... It's easy to list things which would be great to have, but quite tedious to actually implement them. So sure... first things first.

 

My point was simply to 'dare' to make AR using some engine, which is up to today's gaming standards (or as close to as possible). Yea, making all the 3D models of the encounters is a lot of work. Unless one uses some already existing models and just applies some modifications. Although I do agree with Rybags that a good idea is to remain within the original spirit/feel of the game. So I think making any modification is fine unless you stay within that atmoshere. It's AR after all, a unique one, the one everyone loves as is.

 

However my position is that making AR using a modern platform will not make it lose it's unique atmosphere. Why would it? Philip Price made AR with the tools he had available back in 1984, right? If he was to make it today, would he choose Atari 8-bit you think? That doesn't mean we need to stick to the 25-year-old-standrads, does it? It's the concept that counts, the atmosphere, what makes AR AR...

 

Just think of it... How do you imagine, say, Granite Bank or Tail of the Dog or Flaming Dragon Tavern in today's 3D gaming environment? A sketch could be done even using Doom's engine, whatever.

 

I still don't know how you intend to merge some things from the City and Dungeon. I mean so it makes sense. It's a challenge. An undestructible character from the City is nothing special in the Dungeon etc etc... I just can't imagine a Dungeon character wielding Razor Ice in the City.

[acrin1]

However my position is that making AR using a modern platform will not make it lose it's unique atmosphere. Why would it? Philip Price made AR with the tools he had available back in 1984, right? If he was to make it today, would he choose Atari 8-bit you think? That doesn't mean we need to stick to the 25-year-old-standrads, does it? It's the concept that counts, the atmosphere, what makes AR AR...

 

Just think of it... How do you imagine, say, Granite Bank or Tail of the Dog or Flaming Dragon Tavern in today's 3D gaming environment? A sketch could be done even using Doom's engine, whatever.

I'm all for a new version and I'm committed to producing an enhanced version but it would be very difficult for me to create a bang up to date engine as I don't have the skills. I think I've posted elsewhere that I see there could possibly be two versions of this longer term - one fairly faithful version and then a enhanced version which has some engine improvements, new graphics, music, modern user interface etc. I've seen numerous AR remake projects announced (and lots of other game remakes) and a lot of these never get very far sadly so I'm keen this goes somewhere and I end up with a playable game. Anyway here is a screenshot from one of my earlier versions which I thought might interest you:

 

 

I still don't know how you intend to merge some things from the City and Dungeon. I mean so it makes sense. It's a challenge. An undestructible character from the City is nothing special in the Dungeon etc etc... I just can't imagine a Dungeon character wielding Razor Ice in the City.

I've given some thought to this and I would introduce quests which take you backwards and forwards between City and Dungeon with some areas only accessible later on. I'd be looking to populate a lot of the quieter areas of the City map (including the Arena and Palace areas) so I'd expect there to be areas that a City character can't get into or survive in initially. I don't want the player to be able to "exhaust" the City content. The original Dungeon is actually easier than the City in many ways (easy access to weapons - torches, razor ice, cheap lodgings etc) so I would expect to toughen things up there and modify the map quite a bit. I think Dungeon characters start with higher stats too. I'd also add groups of monsters to the city (as you get later in the Dungeon). Things could also change based on the calendar so there may be events and quests that occur later in the AR timeframe where new groups of monsters / new encounter tables are used. Lots of possibilities.

[latino.ad7]

I'm all for a new version and I'm committed to producing an enhanced version but it would be very difficult for me to create a bang up to date engine as I don't have the skills. I think I've posted elsewhere that I see there could possibly be two versions of this longer term - one fairly faithful version and then a enhanced version which has some engine improvements, new graphics, music, modern user interface etc. I've seen numerous AR remake projects announced (and lots of other game remakes) and a lot of these never get very far sadly so I'm keen this goes somewhere and I end up with a playable game. Anyway here is a screenshot from one of my earlier versions which I thought might interest you:

Wow... a great screenshot! It surely illustrates how many possibilities there are around AR original concept. I also had a couple of sketches of my own. I never really got further than sketches.

 

Yes, I think I saw this post of yours about two versions of the game. Sounds good.

 

I still have this modern gaming environment in mind, thou. A lot of gaming products could be named, which are out there on the market really... To me, they set some standards, so you know... usually people tsk at anything that's even a little worse than what has already been introduced / sold on the market. A drawback is that it's tough to keep the pace. Sometimes some games under development are already outdated. But still...

 

Yes, I hear you about many fan projects, most of them abandoned. I hate it about fan projects actually. So many of them never see daylight. I see this as a serious 'trap' for fan projects. People get excited, great exceptional ideas flying around, but then... well... Just to name one, I've been involved in a big fan project and it's been more than 8 years. And just recenetly when everybody lost hope, it finally got released, at least the first part of... 15 scenarios, which were originally planned. And the author announced that no more will be re;leased. Big plans. Then reality kicks in. Sad, but... well, reallity.

 

Heh, not even fan projects. Look at AR itself. Big plans, 7 scenarios planned. And only 2 of them actually produced and in quite a rush and in an erratic manner (different people making the City and the Dungeon etc...)

 

Anyway, I've been mulling the idea to offer help in your project. I don't really enjoy fan projects, which are never finalized and -you said it yourself- there are gazillions of them out there. I mean it would be nice to help in something that will actually be released. Think about it. I like your reasonable appreach. Let's not get too ambitious. Maybe we can talk over an email or pm.

 

I've given some thought to this and I would introduce quests which take you backwards and forwards between City and Dungeon with some areas only accessible later on. I'd be looking to populate a lot of the quieter areas of the City map (including the Arena and Palace areas) so I'd expect there to be areas that a City character can't get into or survive in initially. I don't want the player to be able to "exhaust" the City content. The original Dungeon is actually easier than the City in many ways (easy access to weapons - torches, razor ice, cheap lodgings etc) so I would expect to toughen things up there and modify the map quite a bit. I think Dungeon characters start with higher stats too. I'd also add groups of monsters to the city (as you get later in the Dungeon). Things could also change based on the calendar so there may be events and quests that occur later in the AR timeframe where new groups of monsters / new encounter tables are used. Lots of possibilities.

Interesting. So you actually do plan to make a lot of changes, see? This is tough really, because the City was such a peculiar game. Unfinished obviously, yet so so so great. Sometimes attempts to 'improve' the game might spoil its original concept. I don't know... I remember I enjoyed that the City was such an open game. I played it even though my char was lvl 11 with virtually everything. So why did I play it? I have no idea how the City will look if you introduce quests. Otoh, The Dungeon was fun, too, just in a different way. Yet if I were to choose only one of them, I'd go for the City. Don't ask me why.

 

Again, I like your approach. Indeed you seem to have it thought out, which is good.

 

Yea, I agree with your idea to toughen things up for the Dungeon.

 

My other thought is what such an AR ressurected project has that today's fantasy games don't have. We love AR and it's a sort of a 'nostalgy' from tha past. Yet other people might not share this 'nostalgy'. I guess it would be a disappointment to have AR just the same or very similar to one of today's games on the market. Yet those 'market' games resemble one another and developers tend to improve these games over time. So some of the features / ideas are great and insightful and interesting. A question arises if AR project should 'borrow' any of such ideas. That would be a significant modification. Well, not easy to answer.

 

Apologies for my messy thoughts...

Edited August 12, 2009 by latino.ad7