My feelings to all here

[José Pereira]

I only have ideas. But it's just because I like A8.

I always see people around express their ideas. And it's what I am trying to do.

When I say a name of a game, it's because I would like to see it on A8.

I don't want people do the things in the way I say.

When someone says it does no work on my way, I simply, start again. Spend hours of thinking, seeing screens, playing,...

Then, I send another post with my new ideas. All my ideas are only to have the best as possible on A8. I probably have some ilness

about almost all the A8 games on the past. Like they say in Atlantis Games Group: "We're here to change that".

I tried in the past, but no way. I didn't have any help about codding. I think it's to late to learn.

 

What I don't understand, it's why you don't like others opinions, probably, it's not this, but it's what I feel many times.

Another thing, it's that I also have the feeling that when you start to read my posts, you probably don't understand, or not read all.

 

I don't want that people do what I want. I don't think coders are silly ones, or don't know what they are doing. But, as like all in life, we are not alone. I only start trying to help PeteD about A8 things.

I have to admit that I probably said some things here today, that are not true, probably PeteD wants to do his best. But so am I.

I was very angry when TMR see TMR's post and start to read the programmer's post. I feel like stupid one around here and you all like dictators.

 

It's why I answer in that way to TMR. I have to give him an an apologize.

 

As, to PeteD, it's probably different ways of seeing things. I started to send here many post, because I want to be usefull to the A8 community. PeteD probably think it's better only to put things when they are 100% done and probably his right. An apologize To Pete too.

 

 

I only want one thing from you: Give me a chance, it's impossible that all I said here don't work. Some can work. Can I continue to give my ideas (O.K. without so many screens...)? But don't kill my A8 ideas. It's a way I feel I am ATARI ALIVE.

 

Good night.

José Pereira.

[Fres]

I like your suggestions, José. I'm not a coder -- at least not the kind you require, but I think it's fun to imagine what might have been, or what could be. Obviously, however, things are not always as easy as they seem. Keep dreaming, tho. Again, I like it!

 

It still amazes me how there are those who would seek to alienate the few of us who remain loyal to this hobby. To those, I say, "Lighten up, Francis." ...

 

 

-Fres

[TMR]

I only have ideas. But it's just because I like A8.

I always see people around express their ideas. And it's what I am trying to do.

 

The problem is more presentation than anything; ideas aren't an issue, but in the Ikari Warriors thread in particular it simply came across as "here's the map, i reckon this is possible now who is going to take over and write it?". The answer is always going to be "nobody" in those situations, anyone who can code usually has their own agenda and, since we can pick and choose projects, those that interest us are pretty much the things we come up with to work on. Pete wants to do Exploding Fist for example, i've had a Spectrum to C64 conversion of Chronos on my "to do" list for well over a decade now, XXL wanted Jet Set Willy on the A8, Heaven's got his long-term project and the VIC 20 ports...

 

Thing is, even if you'd gone ahead and converted the entire map into something actually viable for a game (and it would've been problematic, assuming that's a block of NES graphics, the hardware has 256 characters to a "font" and the A8 only 128) with a utility like CharPad there's still no guarantee it'd actually be of use to a programmer since they might say something like "i needed half of those characters for the software sprites". With any 8-bit the programmer has to plan the thing first, then the graphics person/designer works around the limitations they're given, that applies to everything from the VCS to the C64DTV.

 

I was very angry when TMR see TMR's post and start to read the programmer's post. I feel like stupid one around here and you all like dictators.

 

i pointed to that link because it's a very good read and well worth considering for anybody before they pitch ideas, that's why it's pinned up and highlighted in the homebrew sub-forum, because the need was felt to be there.

 

And learning to code might seem daunting at the start but it's nowhere near as complex as you're thinking, especially with all the kick-arse cross developent tools around these days like MADS, G2F, RMT, CharPad or (as PeteD and other including myself sometimes do) the option of growing your own job-specific Windows-based utilities.

[Wrathchild]

Evening José,

I only have ideas. But it's just because I like A8.

I always see people around express their ideas. And it's what I am trying to do.

When I say a name of a game, it's because I would like to see it on A8.

I think the majority here have no problems with the above.

I don't want people do the things in the way I say... All my ideas are only to have the best as possible on A8.

That, for me, is quite a contradiction - if coders aren't permitted to do it your way how then will it satisfy you?

What I don't understand, it's why you don't like others opinions, probably, it's not this, but it's what I feel many times.

Part of the deal here is respecting the opinions of others who take the effort to respond to you. If you are not a coder then accept it when a coder points out where something is not (easily) do-able, stop taking it personally. If that coder is wrong then another coder will step in and say so... and so the threads continue. Don't let us put you off such that you just give up and create new fanciful threads - Carmel satisfies our needs there - in our own way we are pushing you to learn and grow in your approaches to the problems you find.

Another thing, it's that I also have the feeling that when you start to read my posts, you probably don't understand, or not read all.

Don't be so naive, most can read through/behind the lost-in-translation bits.

What I don't understand, it's why you don't like others opinions

Are you asking this question of yourself too?

... I feel like stupid one around here and you all like dictators.

I think I may have mentioned before, I feel that your lashings discourage others from assisting.

I only want one thing from you: Give me a chance, it's impossible that all I said here don't work. Some can work. Can I continue to give my ideas (O.K. without so many screens...)? But don't kill my A8 ideas. It's a way I feel I am ATARI ALIVE.

Go for it, but rather than seeing it as 'killing you ideas', try to see it more as 'shutting off of a path'... find yourself another path, you may reach points where you need to decide that the maze cannot be solved - don't fight this too hard - transport yourself to another. If you scan the history of some of the projects on these boards you'll find that most of us have our own mazes that we re-attempt every now and again

 

Take care,

Mark

[+skr]

I tried in the past, but no way. I didn't have any help about codding. I think it's to late to learn.

 

Nope. It´s never too late for anything. I never made it to program something for the A8. But I want to. So I just started learning Assembler.

Perhaps I will never write a simple program or demo. Perhaps I might write a great game within a year. I don´t know.

 

What I know is: When I don´t try to do it, I surely won´t do it.

[Allas]

I tried in the past, but no way. I didn't have any help about codding. I think it's to late to learn.

 

Nope. It´s never too late for anything. I never made it to program something for the A8. But I want to. So I just started learning Assembler.

Perhaps I will never write a simple program or demo. Perhaps I might write a great game within a year. I don´t know.

 

What I know is: When I don´t try to do it, I surely won´t do it.

 

 

Jose, maybe you need to join on a project on developing stage. For example the Gridrunner topic from Heaven. It's a good exercise to try to understand what the people discuss about a real project on developing. Maybe you can add some ideas. Before I programmed my own Atari games, i usually read and collaborate on Boinxx Atari project and was very fun.

[TMR]

What I know is: When I don´t try to do it, I surely won´t do it.

 

Very true, and one of the huge advantages that anybody learning machine code today has (as opposed to those of us who have been doing it for a while) is that there's quite a few knowledgeable people around this 'ere message board who'll answer questions too.

[Barnacle boy]

What I don't understand, it's why you don't like others opinions, probably, it's not this, but it's what I feel many times.

Another thing, it's that I also have the feeling that when you start to read my posts, you probably don't understand, or not read all.

 

José, I don't want to offend you mate, but as a casual observer I've noticed that this is exactly what you do to other people's comments. In the WotEF thread, you were coming up with all sorts of ideas about how to handle the game on Atari, apparently without really checking how the game played on the c64. Even after Pete suggested that you try the c64 version in an emulator to see that the 2 players can completely overlap, you still made a lengthy post proposing an idea that is unworkable (as far as I can tell) as it still relied on the erroneous assumption that the players in the c64 version only ever overlapped each other to a max of 8 pixels across. Things like that don't encourage people to take your ideas on board.

 

And then you started up that whole Ikari Warriors thread with that map, claiming that the guys in the 7800 forum said it's from NES version, but you got that wrong too. The map is actually from the 7800 version of the game - the guy posting merely commented that it looks a lot like the Nintendo map for about the first 2/3. But either way, just having a map of a game doesn't even come close to warranting the response of: "A NEW GAME ON THE WAY? WHO WILL TAKE THIS?"

 

I don't mean to nitpick, but I get the impression that you get all excited and barely read other people's posts, and then get depressed and maybe even annoyed when people don't fall over themselves in a rush to adopt your ideas. So what I'm trying to say is, maybe you should slow down a bit (smoke a cigar!), and read more carefully the responses people do give to your suggestions, because you might find they're telling you something useful.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Barnacle boy

[PeteD]

José,

 

I think we can all tell how enthusiastic you are about the A8 and you obviously really want to contribute. I don't know if this is generosity or if you just have to somehow get your name displayed in an A8 game. Either way I think by now you may have found out you're going about it the wrong way.

 

The best thing to do would be to check the programming threads (either if they pop up here or in the actual programming section of the forum) and ask if you can help in some way. Tell people what your skills are, can you actually draw A8 graphics from scratch or only edit existing stuff? That way instead of doing something that nobody can use (and causing all this argument that's been going on) you'll have something to work on that is to the specifications of the people doing the coding. I've already said a few times I'd be happy to include your work in the next Fist "follow up" game I want to do. All it needs is a background drawn with G2F. If you have the skills, please use them

 

As for learning to program, if you have a logical brain then it's farily easy. There aren't a lot of instructions, get data from memory, put data to memory, add/subtract (increment and decrement), some logical functions (AND, OR etc) and some logical tests (is this value 0, or equal to a value you test it with, or negative etc). As TMR said, there are a lot of people around to help, not just here but you have the whole internet to draw information from and all the programming tools you could need to make life easier than it used to be.

 

Really, don't give up, just find out how you can contribute instead of trying to force your ideas on people. Even if this isn't your intention it is how your posts come across to most people.

 

Pete

[Avram]

Atariarchives.org is a great website with plenty of books to start teaching yourself assembly language.

 

Atari Roots might be a good place to begin.

 

Atari Graphics & Arcade Game design is another good reference.

[oky2000]

José I don't have a problem with your posts however as some others have said getting someone else to code your ideas is an uphill struggle as the people who can code them have their own ideas to work through.

 

I know this from experience in the past, after asking for a year to get some 68k coder to do something useful with my Nemesis/Gradius graphics wasn't going anywhere so I am doing it myself in my spare time. You can't blame people for having their own ideas of what they want to code.

 

Then again the good feeling from shoehorning a Konami arcade machine into an A500 with no real difference or compromises (so far that is) is just unbeatable, time is the trade-off but at least I now know what to do with all the graphics I did as a teenager on my ST and then Amiga (some Neochrome screenshot mockups even got published in a C+VG magazine too). Also the more you start to try and code these ideas the better your ideas get when you have an appreciation of what is realistically possible or just very difficult as opposed to impossible.

 

Recreating the level 1 Gradius music tracks alone was a learning experience all by its self

[Heaven/TQA]

reminds me the discussions we had with emkay at the beginning when MCS and later G2F appeared... but as I am respecting emkay and everybody else (you, too... ) you are free to kick ideas around...

 

and sometimes even if 1 of 10 suggestions work then it might worthy all the pain... (ok... might not be efficient thou)

 

I remember saying TMR some valid point lightyears ago... when talking about gfx on ancient computers (c64,a8,bbc, ...) most of the games are written around the limitations of a machine... and that makes it hard when taking one machine, like f.e. Fist on 64, and transfer that to another machine.

 

A8 & C64 are not so similar like they look at the first glance....

 

A8 scene is lacking on coders, gfx guys and msx...

 

My limited resources are mainly in the gfx area... to be honest...

[Heaven/TQA]

I tried in the past, but no way. I didn't have any help about codding. I think it's to late to learn.

 

Nope. It´s never too late for anything. I never made it to program something for the A8. But I want to. So I just started learning Assembler.

Perhaps I will never write a simple program or demo. Perhaps I might write a great game within a year. I don´t know.

 

What I know is: When I don´t try to do it, I surely won´t do it.

 

 

Jose, maybe you need to join on a project on developing stage. For example the Gridrunner topic from Heaven. It's a good exercise to try to understand what the people discuss about a real project on developing. Maybe you can add some ideas. Before I programmed my own Atari games, i usually read and collaborate on Boinxx Atari project and was very fun.

 

 

Boinxx???? Jesus... btw... I have still all sources and assets and tools...

[frenchman]

They are not real coders, real coders are like David Crane, breaking new ground where others (like Jay Miner) say 'I didn't know you can do that on the VCS'. Coders don't go around saying...Yes I can do that on the supposedly superior C64 but it cannot be done on the A8 without trying.

Edited August 2, 2009 by frenchman

[emkay]

reminds me the discussions we had with emkay at the beginning when MCS and later G2F appeared... but as I am respecting emkay and everybody else (you, too... ) you are free to kick ideas around...

 

There is qute a difference. I was creating some stuff back in those days in my spare time, so I know what I am talking/writing about.

José has nice ideas and many of them seem to be possible though.

But....

 

A8 scene is lacking on coders, gfx guys and msx...

 

The A8 is lacking in coders in prior. Having better tools for development, will grant better results when people do GFX & Music...

[TMR]

They are not real coders, real coders are like David Crane, breaking new ground where others (like Jay Miner) say 'I didn't know you can do that on the VCS'.

 

This analogy falls over on one very obvious point; in the discussions here when Person A says "this game is easy to do on the C64 but hard on the Atari 8-bit" or whatever, there's no Person B taking David Crane's role and actually proving them wrong, including yourself.

 

Coders don't go around saying...Yes I can do that on the supposedly superior C64 but it cannot be done on the A8 without trying.

 

Yes they do, because coders know what they're talking about; Heaven said that the machines were different and that's very true, if the code is generic then it's not a problem but taking something format specific from C64 to Atari is difficult because of those differences just as moving something the other way will be Hell, taking code from the Commodore Plus/4 to the C64 is a bugger and they're based around a similar design!

[frenchman]

They are not real coders, real coders are like David Crane, breaking new ground where others (like Jay Miner) say 'I didn't know you can do that on the VCS'.

 

This analogy falls over on one very obvious point; in the discussions here when Person A says "this game is easy to do on the C64 but hard on the Atari 8-bit" or whatever, there's no Person B taking David Crane's role and actually proving them wrong, including yourself.

 

 

Perhaps Person A should take David Crane's role then, or otherwise how does he know...."this game is easy to do on the C64 but hard on the Atari 8-bit". He must do it first to come to this conclusion, otherwise he's just assuming.

Edited August 2, 2009 by frenchman

[PeteD]

They are not real coders, real coders are like David Crane, breaking new ground where others (like Jay Miner) say 'I didn't know you can do that on the VCS'.

 

This analogy falls over on one very obvious point; in the discussions here when Person A says "this game is easy to do on the C64 but hard on the Atari 8-bit" or whatever, there's no Person B taking David Crane's role and actually proving them wrong, including yourself.

 

 

Perhaps Person A should take David Crane's role then, or otherwise how does he know...."this game is easy to do on the C64 but hard on the Atari 8-bit". He must do it first to come to this conclusion, otherwise he's just assuming.

 

 

Assumptions are relatively easy to make when they're educated ones though. We know the specs of both machines, we know the c64 has more/better hardware sprites, better colour selection over a screen area. We know the A8 has a faster cpu, a wider palette to chose from. So you look at what you've got to do and come to an educated conclusion. If it's more cpu intensive the A8 wins, if it's more sprite/moving objects/colours per character block then the C64 does. It doesn't mean one is impossible on the other, just that either the results would be disappointing or disappointing and 10x the amount of work.

 

I don't have to write a software sprite routine for A8 that attempts to display 32 multicolour 24x21 sprites over a multicolour background (something the C64 can do easily) to know it's going to be a pain to write and take too long to run.

 

 

Pete

[Heaven/TQA]

aehm.... I don't have to kill a man to know that this is bad and has consequences... that is what I call experience...

 

f.e. I have touched many 6502 based machines... and while writing games and stuff on A8 I experienced how difficult it is to replicate things on A8 while on other machines it is a piece of cake... f.e. GTIA modes...difficult on c64... (Koronis Rift f.e.), raster fx? difficult on c64 (see Ballblazer, Dimension X)... but f.e. why is then Trailblazer f.e. on C64 in higher resolution than the A8 part? etc etc etc... removing borders? simple on A8, tricky on c64...

 

ask Tebe why he can not do Bomb Jack on a plain 64k machine without a ram-cart? he will tell you why...

 

There not many "generic" games which can be done on both machines easily... Leaderboard, Sentinel, Formular one Granprix, Stunt Car Racer, Elite, etc...

[emkay]

but f.e. why is then Trailblazer f.e. on C64 in higher resolution than the A8 part? etc etc etc... removing borders? simple on A8, tricky on c64...

 

Just because everyone is thinking that PMg has something to do with Hardwaresprites.

Look how simple this effect is done. What would a coder stop from using the PMg for the "road" and to create a hires ball?

 

ask Tebe why he can not do Bomb Jack on a plain 64k machine without a ram-cart? he will tell you why...

 

Because the Atari takes real benefit by using RAM extensions.

 

There not many "generic" games which can be done on both machines easily... Leaderboard, Sentinel, Formular one Granprix, Stunt Car Racer, Elite, etc...

 

They made Rescue on Fractalus on the C64, accepting that it will be slower.

Many "Games" on the Atari don't exist, that -somehow- don't also exist on the C64, when looking at the speed Castle Master or Driller. The Atari version could be faster and more colourful.... and... as my converted Driller tune shows, it is even possible to have a fair rendering of that tune aswell.

 

Despite of anything. What C64 made them to create more games - if even worse - was their money making purpose.

[TMR]

They are not real coders, real coders are like David Crane, breaking new ground where others (like Jay Miner) say 'I didn't know you can do that on the VCS'.

 

This analogy falls over on one very obvious point; in the discussions here when Person A says "this game is easy to do on the C64 but hard on the Atari 8-bit" or whatever, there's no Person B taking David Crane's role and actually proving them wrong, including yourself.

 

 

Perhaps Person A should take David Crane's role then, or otherwise how does he know....

 

As Heaven and PeteD have said, there is experience and knowledge; as a random example, anyone who has written software sprite routines for 6502-based machines knows what a resource hog they can be (pre-rolled data for the sprites and masks take significant chunks of RAM, the read/stash/mask/add/write or even read/eor/write cycle is processor intensive and the fastest solutions, such as unrolling the code and "compiling" the sprite, eat through memory like a starved Pacman), so anything on the C64 that gets eight sprites on a scanline is going to be difficult to replicate on the Atari 8-bit.

[Tezz]

Sprites are a greater strength on the 64 without a doubt. A combination of player multiplexing and soft sprites is the only option on the A8 and that's much less flexible and difficult to work with than freely usable multicoloued hardware sprites. In terms of soft sprite use on the A8, to the degree that we want to see the A8 pushed with new games, pre-rolled is often a necessity with the rest of the heavy requirements.

[TMR]

ask Tebe why he can not do Bomb Jack on a plain 64k machine without a ram-cart? he will tell you why...

 

Because the Atari takes real benefit by using RAM extensions.

 

No, he can't get it into a stock 64K machine without extra RAM because it simply wouldn't fit. That's in no way an insult to Tebe or the A8, just a simple fact that he wanted a game with lots of content and that required the solution he settled on.

 

The C64 can take advantage of RAM expansions too (in fact, you'd be surprised at what is possible with a DMA that can chunk data around at a byte per cycle), it's just that programmers tend to shy away from expanded configurations because not everybody has them (remember that as programmers we're used to a single configuration of machine that didn't change over the lifespan of the machine) and ironically i'm one of the few who has written a C64 demo that requires a RAM expansion... =-)

[TMR]

Damn it... i've just realised that this is turning into another C64/A8 "discussion"... for the record, i'm not wanting that and was making points in defence of the coders that frenchman was maligning earlier in the thread. Just because people don't have an overly optimistic and unrealistic "can do" attitude, doesn't mean they're not talented coders or more than capable of deciding what is or isn't possible without actually wasting time trying to do things that are either incredibly hard or absolutely impossible.

 

Y'know, i've been talking about starting a platform-agnostic forum for the "A8 vs C64" and so forth discussions for years, maybe it really is time...

[Heaven/TQA]

that's why a "to all non--programmers idea peddlers" is necessary... ok... more on 2600 usefull than on A8 as it is a more restricted machine but good to read, anyway...