What N64 could Jaguar have handled?

[kool kitty89]

With triangles or quads for the polygons?

 

 

I haven't read a lot about what projects you guys have in the works (not that all such projects have even been discussed publicly), so excuse my ingnorance on the topic.

Edited August 19, 2009 by kool kitty89

[sd32]

Gorf, comparing framerate in youtube videos can be tricky, still, I think PZ is probably smoother. There are other levels in RS with more height (the first level -on tatoine- for example -though this level in particular would seem ideal for voxel rendering on the Jag with the very limited number of buildings and envronment fich with dunes, canyons, and mountains)

 

Another thing to note on RS is that it will look significantly diferent with the RAM expansion PAK (doubling horizontal and vertical resolution and increasing draw distance -not sure on the effect on framerate though), supposedly the draw distance is even longer than the PC version when the Expansion Pak is used.

 

 

I tought that the expansion pak was being used on that youtube clip. The guy who posted it says in the description:

"Factor 5 really pushed the N64 hard with creative coding, use of the RAM expansion pack, and a nice high-res mode (as seen here)."

[sd32]

I really like the smoothe look of voxel environments though, particularly on the Jag compared to polygon ones like in Cybermorph or Checkered Flag (BM looked a bit better, but nowhere near as good as PZ's voxels).

It seems to me that to best take advantage of the Jag graphically, you'd want to use a number of different renering techniques together, each used where most advantageous. (voxel landscape, polygonal buildings like in Iron Soldier, or preferably more like IS 2, polygonal models for some enemies/objects and effects, with textures when really necessary, and use of 2D parts of the environment, objects, or effects where appropriate -like trees, weapon fire, explosions, maybe some smaller buildings as well)

 

Its entirely possible that people may discover that someone has already been thinking upon those lines.

 

 

By all means Atari Owl, keep talking, go on... WE WANNA KNOW MORE!

[Atari_Owl]

With triangles or quads for the polygons?

 

Yes - its entirely possible that is the case too.

 

EDIT: Actually guys i feel like i should explain why i'm being so oblique in my references. Believe it or not the intention has not been to tease.

 

Essentially there's barely any game there - its really just an engine, or more precisely two engines (or 2.5 depending on how you look at it). The gameplay and content is still being designed.

Furthermore, life's difficulties over the last few years mean that almost nothing was done in 2007/8 so progress has been far slower than i would have liked.

 

Finally i've been wary of talking about something which is in no way imminent for fear of getting people's expectations up and engender impatience for timescales i could not hope to meet. Carl advised not to announce projects until they're nearly ready and i realise this is very good advice, advice i should try harder to follow. In fact were it not for the publicity which is likely to arise from the JFUK this year (which will hopefully not be the last - though i know they are becoming more difficult to arrange) i'd probably still have been keeping quiet.

 

So essentially - its not ready for any kind of release, its no where near ready - so please bear that in mind.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Atari_Owl

[Gorf]

Another thing to note on RS is that it will look significantly diferent with the RAM expansion PAK (doubling horizontal and vertical resolution and increasing draw distance -not sure on the effect on framerate though), supposedly the draw distance is even longer than the PC version when the Expansion Pak is used.

 

NOw we are talking addons? Ok give me one more J-RISC and two more megs of ram. Bet RS wont be very impressive at all.

 

Let keep this to the hardware that came out of the box.

 

Gorf, comparing framerate in youtube videos can be tricky, still, I think PZ is probably smoother. There are other levels in RS with more height (the first level -on tatoine- for example -though this level in particular would seem ideal for voxel rendering on the Jag with the very limited number of buildings and envronment fich with dunes, canyons, and mountains)

 

Another thing to note on RS is that it will look significantly diferent with the RAM expansion PAK (doubling horizontal and vertical resolution and increasing draw distance -not sure on the effect on framerate though), supposedly the draw distance is even longer than the PC version when the Expansion Pak is used.

 

 

I tought that the expansion pak was being used on that youtube clip. The guy who posted it says in the description:

"Factor 5 really pushed the N64 hard with creative coding, use of the RAM expansion pack, and a nice high-res mode (as seen here)."

 

 

If that's the case, then the N64 is not half the machine I thought it was. IF that is RS WITH the expansion pack than

I'll take PZ anyday....andy time....anywhere.

[Needles Kane]

Where do you guys get those Jag colored glasses?

[kool kitty89]

If that's the case, then the N64 is not half the machine I thought it was. IF that is RS WITH the expansion pack than

I'll take PZ anyday....andy time....anywhere.

 

Hmm, I thought there would have been more of a difference too, at least from what I've heard/read on the topic. The draw distance doesn't look subtancually different from what I remember seeing on a stock N64. The resolution is probably the biggest change, but that's hard to notice on a youtube video. (same goes for framerate, I bet PZ runs smoother than that video depicts as well)

 

Again though, I'd expect that the framerate would be lower in some areas when using the "expansion pak" high res mode. (It's definitely true for pod racer, it's a trade off, some levels are more playable in high res, some better in low res) Granted pod racer isn't a Factor 5 game, and the draw distance apears identical regardless, just having 4x the number of pixels on screen. (it looks much blurier in low res mode) And note that most Lucas Arts games offered a high res mode with the "expansion PAK" not just Factor 5's.

 

I prefer the PC versions of both though (talk about higher resolution, detail is higher on racer too), too bad there are some compatibility problems with my new computer... (RS runs OK, but the XP patch for Racer won't run in vista 32 for some reason)

 

Also remember that RS was one of Factor 5's earlier works with their custom microcode for the N64, Battle for Naboo was a significant improvement (particularly in draw distance), and Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine was specifically developed to be superior to the PC version and supported 640x480 resolution standard, no exp PAK necessary.

Edited August 19, 2009 by kool kitty89

[Tempest]

Where do you guys get those Jag colored glasses?

Same place they get the kool-aid...

 

Tempest

[Gorf]

Where do you guys get those Jag colored glasses?

 

 

As a coder and a gamer I have no need for any particualr colored glasses to see that for a machine

that is almost 4 years later and 3 times the clock speed and on top of that, the need for the expansion

unit to even get that and even more so the microcode rewritten and optimized, I have to say Im hardly

impressed. The almost always flat polygon scape is boring in comparison to the voxel scape. The frame

rate is low for a machine 3 times the speed and the colors are not nearly as bright.

 

The Jaguar, which is one of the worst designs in console history is still enough of a machine to put a serious

hurt on the N64 in this respect. Also keep in mind taht PZ is an older, unfinished and unoptimized game and

is probably still overusing the 68k.

[Zerosquare]

They're supposed to be in the box your Jaguar came in. If you're missing them, then you didn't get a complete system.

[Video]

<!--quoteo(post=1817674:date=Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:57 PM:name=Video)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Video @ Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1817674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is, it's a 2D engine, I think much of SM64 could be done with a voxel engine, but there are several places that couldn't be done...Pluss, a voxel engine would have a similar limitation on draw distance as any 2D game, like Atari carts.

I think it would offer a closer match to SM64 than a raycast engine would, but it would be difficult and clumsy at best....hell, nintendo dumbed donw SM64 to fit on the DS, and it still looked and felt largely like the same game, so I don't see why not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

 

Huh? A voxel engine is no less 3D than a poly engine is. In that respect there is no TRUE 3D visuals. There is no real depth

in a 2D monitor. The only thing that makes either 3D( and both are certainly capable) is the math used along with them.

You look at the various sample code out there( and there are plenty) and you will usually see a qsort for the z plane.

If not they are recent samples and rely on the hardware z-buffers.

 

 

OMG there is no way this is going to work right/ (WTF happend to atariage damnit?)

 

Uh..yeah, That's nice to have all the computer speccy shit, but to be honest, Yes, a voxel engine is a 2D engine, it is no more 3D than a raycast (doom) engine (and lord knows how many times people have jumped on my ass for calling that a 3D engine) IMO, if it looks 3D, and plays 3D, it's 3D, yeah the compu7ter is processing in 2D, but if what you see is 3D, what's the difference?

 

Now maybe we're talking about two different things, but down below is what I'm calling a voxel engine, and yeah, as far as the computer is concerned, it's 2D, not 3D (viewed from above, it would be no different than Mariokart, or Doom, and it has it's own strengths and weaknesses in comparison... but that doesn't change it into something it isn't)

 

This is from Quad Desert Fury for GBA BTW, and IMO, it really is a beautiful engine (pay no attention to how shitty a screen cap looks, it's much MUCH better in motion)

[kool kitty89]

Gorf, by those standard that'd make the PC version even less impressive (given the requirements, the minimal system requirements obviously not meeting really smoothe gameplay either, 166 Mhz Pentium with 32 MB of RAM and directX 6, with glide or direct 3D card with at least 4 MB video RAM), other than resoultion and some of the audio, the PC version isn't really better, the draw distance isn't amazing either, though decent. (I prefer it for the bonus features, and mappable controlls)

 

As for color, there's the N64's notorious 4kB texture cache limitation (that really seems skimpy given how much newer it was, with the Playstation having a 2kB texture cache), that and the 15-bit on-screen palette. (I beleive it used a 32,768 color palette, selected from entries in the 24-bit master palette, not positive on this limitation though) Compared to the Jag, which often used 16-bit color in its better games, and could use the full 24-bit palette on screen as well.

 

(note, I meant to post this last night, but there was the forum upgrade in progress)

 

 

Uh..yeah, That's nice to have all the computer speccy shit, but to be honest, Yes, a voxel engine is a 2D engine, it is no more 3D than a raycast (doom) engine (and lord knows how many times people have jumped on my ass for calling that a 3D engine) IMO, if it looks 3D, and plays 3D, it's 3D, yeah the compu7ter is processing in 2D, but if what you see is 3D, what's the difference?

 

Now maybe we're talking about two different things, but down below is what I'm calling a voxel engine, and yeah, as far as the computer is concerned, it's 2D, not 3D (viewed from above, it would be no different than Mariokart, or Doom, and it has it's own strengths and weaknesses in comparison... but that doesn't change it into something it isn't)

 

This is from Quad Desert Fury for GBA BTW, and IMO, it really is a beautiful engine (pay no attention to how shitty a screen cap looks, it's much MUCH better in motion)

 

Well, from my understanding, Doom isn't considdered a "true" 3D game, because of its restricted perspective/view, not rendering methods, even the sprites. (granted the 2 are related) Though the restricted view in the Doom engine, is also related to the Affine texture mapping used, as there is no perspective correction. (as seen in many PS1 games, there's the "fish eye" texture warping that occurs with affine mapping, like in Tomb Raider)

Hence why Duke Nukem 3D can be considdered a "full" 3D game. (mouse look)

Hell, I'm pretty sure the PSX port of doom uses Polygons anyway (hardware polygon rendering and t-mapping being faster than software raycasting), but that still doesn't make it a 3D game environment. (likewise I wouldn't considder Resident Evil to be 3D)

 

Now, with voxel rendering this isn't the case, a true 3D perspective can be used, and while it's not particularly common, there are at least some more recent games using it, though still fairly old. (like Outcast)

 

 

 

In you're previous post, you mentioned draw distance limitations related to 2D rendering, like in Atari Karts, I'm not really sure what you mean, any kind of 3D environment is going to have some kind of draw distance limitation, but I don't think there's anything particularly related to Voxels, or ray casting for that matter, opposed to polygons...

Edited August 20, 2009 by kool kitty89

[etschuetz]

One thing you really need to keep in mind is that the N64 was a stripped down SGI computer. In other words, a system that was supposed to have been a polygon cruncher. Thanks to Nintendo's blindness and restricting the system in various ways, it wasn't as powerful as it could have been. In order to shoehorn a N64 game into the Jaguar would have been a feat of awesome stature. First gen games may have been capable of being pushed into a Jaguar with a few changes to the code, such as taking at anti-aliasing, and z-buffering. The other issue is RAM size. On board RAM for the Jaguar was only 2 mb's, and up to 6 on the Cartridge. Also, the N64 uses RAMBUS, which pushed information through the system at a MUCH higher rate than what the Jaguar was ever seeing.

 

I still believe that the Jaguar would have been a killer system if they would have really gone and pushed 2D games, or 2D games with 3D elements (such as backgrounds or special lighting effects). Looking at the newer generation 3D games during the Jags lifetime were not all that impressive. 2D games, however, were gorgeous...Ray Man anyone?

[Gorf]

Now maybe we're talking about two different things, but down below is what I'm calling a voxel engine, and yeah, as far as the computer is concerned, it's 2D, not 3D (viewed from above, it would be no different than Mariokart, or Doom, and it has it's own strengths and weaknesses in comparison... but that doesn't change it into something it isn't)

 

And viewed from above a poly landscape looks no different....see BattleMorph on Jaguar with Top down view engaged.

 

Oh a litle fact:

 

As far as the computer is concerned it's 3D not 2D......the monitor is the 2D representation of the 3D math and logic

generated by the computer. The image is 2D drawn to look 3D by adding mathmatical perspecitve.

 

And a polygon engine is no more 3D than either of the two, and all are drawn into a two dimesional view port.

The math has everything to do with it. Yeah Doom was a ray caster but you can bet there was plenty of 3D math

(tables in DOOM's case, which make it much less a cycle hog) going on in the game. To dismiss the techincal

understanding of these things is silly.

 

A polygon engine to simulate 3D perception uses back face and z-buffer culling. So does a voxel engine, but instead

it simply either cuts off part of the voxel height or does not draw them at all. Also, in simulating a true 3space

that voxel's place in the z-plane has absolute significance not just to the game logic but to the the renderer even

as much. A raycaster has to cull surfaces as well and the z-plane again is absolutely significant.

 

Polygons are the most direct way to express 3D on a 2D monitor but they are hardly more 3D than any of the other

methods. One could certainly argue how one looks against the other but that is another issue altogether.

That screen shot is nice and it is indeed a 3D math engine trying to portray that on a 2D screen.

[kool kitty89]

I think the premise was equivelent games in terms of theme and gameplay, not necessarily trying to replicate the method of rendering and exact detail as the game was in the N64. Hence bringing things like voxel rendering up.

 

I don't think the 6 MB cart limit is really a had number, there's always bank switching. (though due to costs of ROM in general this wasn't likely to happen, hance why most Jag games were well, well below 6 MB in size)

 

Although, I think 2D games like Yoshi Story or the Rampage games shouldn't have been tough. (though audio is a seperate issue as well) And simple polygon usage in games like Space invasers. (particularly as a lot of that wouldn't look much different with just gouraud shading)

[Gorf]

One thing you really need to keep in mind is that the N64 was a stripped down SGI computer.

 

LOL! yeah...VERY stripped down.....in everyway imaginable. Like a Porsce being stripped

down to go cart.

 

In other words, a system that was supposed to have been a polygon cruncher. Thanks to Nintendo's blindness and restricting the system in various ways, it wasn't as powerful as it could have been. In order to shoehorn a N64 game into the Jaguar would have been a feat of awesome stature. First gen games may have been capable of being pushed into a Jaguar with a few changes to the code, such as taking at anti-aliasing, and z-buffering. The other issue is RAM size. On board RAM for the Jaguar was only 2 mb's, and up to 6 on the Cartridge. Also, the N64 uses RAMBUS, which pushed information through the system at a MUCH higher rate than what the Jaguar was ever seeing.

 

But it was choking it everywhere else. for a system at 3 times the clock wth SGI parts it was pretty sad in poly count.

I think it maxed out at 150k polies....no game logic or anything else so taht number is much lower when you add those in.

 

Also keep in mind this is a machine that had dedicated 3D specific hardware. The Jaguar was an all-around machine a few years

ealier tech to boot. It can T map cleaner and clearer than both the PSX and the N64 just not nearly as many facets and very

low polycounts. The other two pushed polies because the hardware was hardwired, or to put it better, these systems 'majored'

in 3D rendering. The blitter in the Jaguar would be considered the jack of all trades and a master of little(pixel manipulation

being it's strongest point and by far superior over the other two systems.)

 

I still believe that the Jaguar would have been a killer system if they would have really gone and pushed 2D games, or 2D games with 3D elements (such as backgrounds or special lighting effects). Looking at the newer generation 3D games during the Jags lifetime were not all that impressive. 2D games, however, were gorgeous...Ray Man anyone?

 

All that would have needed to be done is take all these simple ports as they did, but use 24 bit color graphics and photo real

art, instead of the same low color crap from the original ST/Amiga/Genny systems(or where ever else they ported these from.)

While releasing these games, they could have been tweaking the 3D engines and have come up with much better applications, running

at much faster frame rates and much more impressive graphical looks. What the heck....byt that time if you needed a little boost

in processing power, through a GPU core only on the cart and let it do all the AI and game logic.....why not? Nintendo and others

have.

[segasaturn]

Super 64 Mario!!!!

[sd32]

Super 64 Mario!!!!

 

Am i the only one who feels that the giant house level on Club Drive could work for a 3d patformer like Super Mario 64?. You just substitute the car with a humanoid character add some enemies and presto! There is quiet a bit of exploring to do in that level, you can climb up the cofee table, go trough the mouses hole in the wall, go to the bedrooms, etc. And i think i have read from Gorf that the Club Drive engine could have been gouraud shadded instead of flat shadded without the Jag struggling much. That level always reminds me of the first level on Toy Story 2 for PS1 and N64, only well, untextured, hehe.

So yeah, i think the Jag can do something "similar" to Super Mario 64 and after looking at the San Francisco level also in Club Drive, i think the Jag can also do GTA3, heheh .

[etschuetz]

One thing you really need to keep in mind is that the N64 was a stripped down SGI computer.

 

LOL! yeah...VERY stripped down.....in everyway imaginable. Like a Porsce being stripped

down to go cart.

 

In other words, a system that was supposed to have been a polygon cruncher. Thanks to Nintendo's blindness and restricting the system in various ways, it wasn't as powerful as it could have been. In order to shoehorn a N64 game into the Jaguar would have been a feat of awesome stature. First gen games may have been capable of being pushed into a Jaguar with a few changes to the code, such as taking at anti-aliasing, and z-buffering. The other issue is RAM size. On board RAM for the Jaguar was only 2 mb's, and up to 6 on the Cartridge. Also, the N64 uses RAMBUS, which pushed information through the system at a MUCH higher rate than what the Jaguar was ever seeing.

 

But it was choking it everywhere else. for a system at 3 times the clock wth SGI parts it was pretty sad in poly count.

I think it maxed out at 150k polies....no game logic or anything else so taht number is much lower when you add those in.

 

Also keep in mind this is a machine that had dedicated 3D specific hardware. The Jaguar was an all-around machine a few years

ealier tech to boot. It can T map cleaner and clearer than both the PSX and the N64 just not nearly as many facets and very

low polycounts. The other two pushed polies because the hardware was hardwired, or to put it better, these systems 'majored'

in 3D rendering. The blitter in the Jaguar would be considered the jack of all trades and a master of little(pixel manipulation

being it's strongest point and by far superior over the other two systems.)

 

I still believe that the Jaguar would have been a killer system if they would have really gone and pushed 2D games, or 2D games with 3D elements (such as backgrounds or special lighting effects). Looking at the newer generation 3D games during the Jags lifetime were not all that impressive. 2D games, however, were gorgeous...Ray Man anyone?

 

All that would have needed to be done is take all these simple ports as they did, but use 24 bit color graphics and photo real

art, instead of the same low color crap from the original ST/Amiga/Genny systems(or where ever else they ported these from.)

While releasing these games, they could have been tweaking the 3D engines and have come up with much better applications, running

at much faster frame rates and much more impressive graphical looks. What the heck....byt that time if you needed a little boost

in processing power, through a GPU core only on the cart and let it do all the AI and game logic.....why not? Nintendo and others

have.

 

You are a much better man than I when it comes to utilizing the hardware than I ever will. I won't deny that. I just really feel that the Jag, as is, would never be able to handle the games that started this thread. I played the WCW/NWO games, and the engine evolved into the WWF No Mercy game, and that was a really good looking game on the N64. Given time, and effort, along with patience from Atari, the Jag would have had some gorgeous games.

 

In reference to the onboard GPU inside a cart... I agree. Look what the Super FX did for the SNES? It really pushed the system beyond its limits. Something like that in the Jaguar game cart, coupled with the Jag Hardware, and maybe we would have seen games looking like PSX/early N64 titles.

[walter_J64bit]

But I all ready have Mortal Kombat.

[Mr Morden]

In reference to the onboard GPU inside a cart... I agree. Look what the Super FX did for the SNES? It really pushed the system beyond its limits. Something like that in the Jaguar game cart, coupled with the Jag Hardware, and maybe we would have seen games looking like PSX/early N64 titles.

 

Except the bus to the cart port is 16bit, so unless they gave that extra JRISC it's own pool of local RAM that would be utterly pointless.

[Crazyace]

The Cartridges on the Jaguar were 32 bits - ( they could also be 16 or even 8 bit though )

[Mr Morden]

The Cartridges on the Jaguar were 32 bits - ( they could also be 16 or even 8 bit though )

 

Yes they can be. But the databus to them is 16bits wide.

[Atari_Owl]

There are 32 data lines on the Cartridge Slot

[oky2000]

Not to threadpiss but to 'handle' a game it must look identical and play at the same speed IMO.

 

So making Starfox 64/Lylat Wars cut down to look like the unreleased SuperFX2 Starfox2 from the SNES isn't really an option.

 

Resident Evil is definitely do-able. It's a very simple 3D engine for the most part overlaid on pre-rendered backdrops.

 

Personally I didn't like the N64, the Saturn and PS1 were superior machines once you take away the Silicon Graphics hype.