Carts vs Disc, what do you think?

[MaximRecoil]

For the time being, Blu-Ray is the cheapest media for 50 GB of storage, unless you get something like a 1 TB hard drive for $75, but that's overkill for a single game at this point in time, even though the price per GB is cheaper than a Blu-Ray disc. Flash memory is still quite expensive, on the order of $150 for a 64 GB thumb drive.

 

However, I don't think games need to be that big. DVD-5 capacity (4.7 GB) is still a lot, and that's about $10 worth of flash memory. Yes it is far more than the mere pennies that a DVD costs, but for the load times, lack of moving parts, and the just plain cool factor of cartridges, it would be worth it IMO.

 

Just think what could be done with a new console that was specialized for 2D games along with 4 GB cartridges. The hardware for the console would be cheap; all you'd need would be something like a Motorola 68000 CPU or similar combined with capable graphics and audio chipsets. Something like this would be a true successor to the consoles of the "16-bit" era; which was the last era that I cared about (3D games can go pound sand). Some amazing 2D games could be produced for such a system.

[MagitekAngel]

For the time being, Blu-Ray is the cheapest media for 50 GB of storage, unless you get something like a 1 TB hard drive for $75, but that's overkill for a single game at this point in time, even though the price per GB is cheaper than a Blu-Ray disc. Flash memory is still quite expensive, on the order of $150 for a 64 GB thumb drive.

 

However, I don't think games need to be that big. DVD-5 capacity (4.7 GB) is still a lot, and that's about $10 worth of flash memory. Yes it is far more than the mere pennies that a DVD costs, but for the load times, lack of moving parts, and the just plain cool factor of cartridges, it would be worth it IMO.

 

Just think what could be done with a new console that was specialized for 2D games along with 4 GB cartridges. The hardware for the console would be cheap; all you'd need would be something like a Motorola 68000 CPU or similar combined with capable graphics and audio chipsets. Something like this would be a true successor to the consoles of the "16-bit" era; which was the last era that I cared about (3D games can go pound sand). Some amazing 2D games could be produced for such a system.

 

I bet there'd be quite a market for a console like this. If it could be sold for under, say, 50 dollars, everyone would have one; families that can't afford a PS3, collectors, classic purists... hell I'd buy one. If the media were rewritable and purchasable in stores, homebrew could become the mainstream. A 16 bit console could revolutionize the entire industry.

[Frizo]

Carts. You dont need the case for carts, just dust protecters for certain games. (NES, Snes)

You can leave a cart on the floor for a good 12 years, and it still works like new. Disks, get all scratched up, and guess what? You have to buy another disk! Isnt that fun?!

[Mord]

If you could change the way games are now made,would you go back to carts,or stay with CD disc? I for one,would go back to carts.I don't like paying $59.00 for say,a new xbox game,and then get a scratch that makes the game junk.(my halo 3)It just slipped out of my hand.Now Will not play!For one thing,you could always depend on a cart.I have found Atari games,well over 30 years old,that played like new.You did,have to clean the carts,that did not have the old dust covers.Now,I know that the CD'S do hold more infomation,but at what cost?I just don't think,games should be on a CD disc.Atari carts,just seemed to be so well built.(until they went to the open air carts)I thought that cd's were suopse to be real cheap to make,Well they sure are not cheap to buy.Does anyone know,what it cost Atari back in the day to make a cart?If so,what would it cost today?What do you guy think?

 

I find carts better for consoles period. More durable than discs while at the same time functioning as a daughter board for the console where you can plug in extra ram and hardware to boost particular game performances in the later period of the console's life. However going back to carts wouldn't be practical at this point. What would you really prefer? Paying $59 for a game that can potentially get scratched or 109+ for any particular game due to the added costs of making, assembling, storing, and transporting cartridges compared to pressing a disc that they'll definitely pass on to the consumer.

[tremoloman2006]

When CDs came out for the PS1 I would have said I prefered them since they never wore out as cartridges in theory can as the contacts do cause friction and wear. The NES was the worst cart system I can remember as we always had to clean the contacts, blow on them, wiggle them just the right way, etc. to make them work.

 

Since owning a PS2, PCs, and other devices with media that scratches easily then becomes junk I'd have to now reverse my initial thought and say carts are the way to go.

 

Although making backups of PS1/PS2 discs is a piece of cake thanks to modchips.

[smartkitten26]

Definetly Cart, A disc strait from the manafactor will not work as good as a 20 year old cart!! Amazing, isn't it?

 

 

[roland p]

I like the speed of carts on my Atari 600xl. Probably every thing you see on the screen comes, without intervention of RAM, from the cart? If todays architecture would work the same way (without loading stuff to RAM first), what kind of system would we get? The N64 might be a cart system, but still has 4MB of memory, probably because it is faster than ROM. Well, carts will beat discs in speed, especially in access time.

[+selgus]

Probably every thing you see on the screen comes, without intervention of RAM, from the cart? If todays architecture would work the same way (without loading stuff to RAM first), what kind of system would we get? The N64 might be a cart system, but still has 4MB of memory, probably because it is faster than ROM. Well, carts will beat discs in speed, especially in access time.

On the N64, the ROM wasn't in your memory map, per se, so the RAM was using to DMA parts of the ROM into memory to be used. You basically streamed things off of the cartridge, just much faster than you could from a CD.

--Selgus

[Thomas Jentzsch]

What's so sucky about having 50gigs of full-hd pleasure with losless surround sound on a disc?

Having to wait a minute until it even starts?

 

And I don't have 1 million different Atari 2600 games anyway.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Thomas Jentzsch

[roland p]

Probably every thing you see on the screen comes, without intervention of RAM, from the cart? If todays architecture would work the same way (without loading stuff to RAM first), what kind of system would we get? The N64 might be a cart system, but still has 4MB of memory, probably because it is faster than ROM. Well, carts will beat discs in speed, especially in access time.

On the N64, the ROM wasn't in your memory map, per se, so the RAM was using to DMA parts of the ROM into memory to be used. You basically streamed things off of the cartridge, just much faster than you could from a CD.

--Selgus

I was thinking of you and hoped you'll give some info about it when I wrote about the N64 What do you prefer, carts or discs?

 

What's so sucky about having 50gigs of full-hd pleasure with losless surround sound on a disc?

Having to wait a minute until it even starts?

 

And I don't have 1 million different Atari 2600 games anyway.

 

The startup time depens on the way the blu-ray is authored. Some movies, start fast. The feature heavy ones take long to startup, which sucks.

[+selgus]

I was thinking of you and hoped you'll give some info about it when I wrote about the N64 What do you prefer, carts or discs?

I guess it really depends on the type of game to me. I've done both, but on my cartridge games, we had to spend a lot of time with compression or costs were just insane. With CDs, we had the space, but the transfer time/lag had to be accounted for. Cartridges were a lot more durable, but also easy to copy.

 

I'd like to see all consoles having some sort of solid state storage, and then distribution via a network, if you are asking me which I would prefer.

--Selgus

[vaderlover]

Carts definately......................but back them up on discs!!! haha

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Some movies, start fast.

Define fast. Like a cart? A CD? A DVD?

[roland p]

Some movies, start fast.

Define fast. Like a cart? A CD? A DVD?

I don't know exactly. When I watch a blu-ray, I put the blu-ray in the blu-ray player, close the curtains, turn on the projector, dim the lights, pull the projector screen down. Most of the time the movie is already playing by then . That's my definition of fast.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I don't know exactly. When I watch a blu-ray, I put the blu-ray in the blu-ray player, close the curtains, turn on the projector, dim the lights, pull the projector screen down. Most of the time the movie is already playing by then . That's my definition of fast.

You forgot making the popcorn.

[etschuetz]

I have to say I am at a cross roads here. With proper care and such, Discs will last a very long time, just as a Cart will. Both will experience some form of decay with age, as is expected with anything. It does boil down to cost and storage space. Granted, the cost of a game today is not for the medium it is on, but rather to production into the actual game, as many use real time CG that is getting very VERY close to Television and Movie quality. I would also say that digital download is a great method, as long as it is DRM free, as Lord Helmet stated. I like my ROM images for the classics as I keep them, and the emulators on an external drive and can play them on ANY computer, ANY where, ANY time.

 

Carts do have character, that is for certain, as each console has a different style of cart. Discs all look the same, no matter what "color" the disc is. However, it is easier to store Discs in comparison to Carts. Take 75 carts (nes or 5200) as an example, in comparison to 75 Playstation/Xbox discs.

 

Also, some carts do have load times. I have noticed that in the later years of the cart based systems, and hand helds, load times were happening. This is only because of the amount of date. Atari games even had some load time, but only a second or two, which is nominal, if at all noticeable. Even digital download games will experience some form of load time. However, they are just as fast, generally, as a cart based game.

Edited August 24, 2009 by etschuetz

[MagitekAngel]

On a semi-related note, it drives me up the wall when people handle discs by their... umm... what's a good word for it, face? I mean to say, when people don't hold them by the edges. And I find the majority of people I know are guilty of this. Fingerprints on the optical surface drive me absolutely insane, and on some level I'm paranoid that the oils from the skin are damaging the plastic.

[Emehr]

Another reason that has been touched upon is that carts can have other chips added to them. That's something you'll never see on a disc. If you want added functionality on a disc-based system, you have to wait for either a console add-on or the next console generation. From extra RAM chips on Atari carts to the SuperFX chip on SNES games, these things helped add to the excitement of getting the game. Good or bad, we'll never see the functional likes of a Sonic & Knuckles, Genesis Virtua Racing, or StarFox type game again.

[etschuetz]

Another reason that has been touched upon is that carts can have other chips added to them. That's something you'll never see on a disc. If you want added functionality on a disc-based system, you have to wait for either a console add-on or the next console generation. From extra RAM chips on Atari carts to the SuperFX chip on SNES games, these things helped add to the excitement of getting the game. Good or bad, we'll never see the functional likes of a Sonic & Knuckles, Genesis Virtua Racing, or StarFox type game again.

 

That is also true with Digital Download...sure you can get "expansion packs", but the added feature support from adding chips to the cart without adding higher costs to the overall console was nice. I wouldn't mind seeing gaming consoles go the way of the PC in some ways, such as upgradeable graphics. The only real issue I see with this, though, is incompatibility with older games released for said console...and possible warranty issues.

[Tursi]

Digital downloads are even worse than discs.... what's next... we pay money and 'THINK' about the games we just paid for?

 

Hehe.. I think BLAZEMONGER already covered that one. (If anyone remembers that..)

 

Carts are my choice too.

[jeremysart]

Agreed I hate the idea of Digital Download, I want to hold the game I just paid for, I want to be able to bring it to a friends house in its case.

 

However, as for carts vs. cd's, well, CD's are becoming as doomed as computer digital data packs (cassette tapes), and a new form, more similar to a cartridge is inevitable. And as technology evolves, prices for these new toys will drop, as all things have (remember when flash drives first came out? Now you see em' in bubble gum machines).

 

Check out this article, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=data-in-the-fast-lanes

There is continuously new research on innovative ways to store massive amounts of data at lower costs.

[ovalbugmann]

Nice article in Scientific American, Jeremy. Yes, instead of the flat 2D layouts of current data storage methods for data as well as processors, using "3D" layouts in these two foundational aspects of computers offer more data storage and more processing power. Read the comments too, there is some interesting info.

 

From Scientific American:

 

Building forests of vertical racetracks on a silicon substrate would yield three-dimensional memory chips with data storage densities surpassing those of hard disk drives

 

This is what we are going to need if we are to go back to all of our preferred medium in game code storage: cartridges.

 

Here is another article I thought was nice, concerning not three dimensional data storage layouts, but 3D CPU layouts for super processing power! - the perfect companion to your article:

 

http://megagames.com/news/html/hardware/3dtransistorspromise50ghzprocessors.shtml

 

From the article I have linked, here^. It's the same premise:

 

By using a 3D structure that arranges components vertically, Unisantis believes that they can reach clockspeeds ranging between 20GHZ to 50 GHz. Current technology lays transistors in a 2D horizontal plane

Edited August 25, 2009 by ovalbugmann

[goldvrx]

With all the newer systems using CD or DVD, whats the life expectency of the consoles laser. When I buy a 2600 or other cart based system from a flea market you have a pretty good chance that it will work. After 30+ years how will the newer systems hold up? My son bought 3 Dreamcasts before he got one that worked correctly.

[ovalbugmann]

With all the newer systems using CD or DVD, whats the life expectency of the consoles laser. When I buy a 2600 or other cart based system from a flea market you have a pretty good chance that it will work. After 30+ years how will the newer systems hold up? My son bought 3 Dreamcasts before he got one that worked correctly.

 

Well, I suppose you could replace the Laser Transport in modern optical based systems, if there are replacement spares available that is. As far as the Dreamcast I have heard there is or was (probably still is) a real shortage is sourcing the DC's propietory GD-ROM disk laser pickup, since the format was discontinued by Sega a few years ago.

 

I have fixed several Jaguar CD Players by replacing the worn out Philips Cd transports in them.

 

I don't know how long the laser system in the new consoles are supposed to last - especially as all the new consoles are like media centers now playing discs of everything from multi-disc HD games, DVDs, AudioCDs, Blue Ray movies, HD movies, Mp3 cd discs, data discs of all sorts, WindowsMediaPlayer discs, etc.

 

One would have to search out your systems'laser pickup data sheet, to find out about the part, for the likes of a 360, or PS3.

 

I know the data sheet for the Jaguar CD Players' laser transport says, it's rated for 20,000 hours of use(MTBF). (Mean-(average) Time Before Failure)

 

[etschuetz]

With all the newer systems using CD or DVD, whats the life expectency of the consoles laser. When I buy a 2600 or other cart based system from a flea market you have a pretty good chance that it will work. After 30+ years how will the newer systems hold up? My son bought 3 Dreamcasts before he got one that worked correctly.

 

I have two Dreamcast systems. One I bought 8 years ago, and still play on it regularly. The other is just about as old, and was given to me...works perfectly fine.