carmel_andrews Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I am sure that it must be possible, obviously it means that you'd have to do some CD/DVD device compatible with the jaggie due to the limited no. of jagcd devices made and in circulation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari_Owl Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) Its completely possible - and if one is prepared to accept a reduced number of textures even more so - and theres even the expanded memory capacity of the skunkboard 2 or when/if the JagCF sees the light of day that also. Theres quite a bit of room to do a game of that ilk. Besides - just how rare are JagCDs? Edited December 17, 2009 by Atari_Owl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorsten Günther Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Its completely possible - and if one is prepared to accept a reduced number of textures even more so - and theres even the expanded memory capacity of the skunkboard 2 or when/if the JagCF sees the light of day that also. Theres quite a bit of room to do a game of that ilk. Besides - just how rare are JagCDs? They are not "rare" (unless you consider items that can be found on eBay virtually anytime "rare") - just a little expensive, as they sell for 100 to 120 Euros (or the approximate equivalent in GBP or USD) there. BTW the original "Tomb Raider" textures are not that impressive in most parts anyway - I guess one could get away with several gouraud-shaded polygons and only adding textures here and there). Thorsten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari_Owl Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 BTW the original "Tomb Raider" textures are not that impressive in most parts anyway - I guess one could get away with several gouraud-shaded polygons and only adding textures here and there). Thorsten I consider you 100% right here - when i saw the TR and TRII textures (particularly the first level in TRII) i was horrified at just how poor they really are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevincal Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Tomb Raider was was originally planned to be made for the Jaguar CD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 The Jaguar could probably pull off just about anything, with reduced polygon count and textures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 BTW the original "Tomb Raider" textures are not that impressive in most parts anyway - I guess one could get away with several gouraud-shaded polygons and only adding textures here and there). Thorsten I consider you 100% right here - when i saw the TR and TRII textures (particularly the first level in TRII) i was horrified at just how poor they really are. Well after viewong that master piece of an engine you wrote for the RPG, Im quite confident TR and Quake(even 2 possibly) could be done off a CD or a very large ROM cart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kool kitty89 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) I consider you 100% right here - when i saw the TR and TRII textures (particularly the first level in TRII) i was horrified at just how poor they really are. TR II looks way way better on PC than PSX, well, unless you turned off filters, persective correction, z-buffering, and ran it in 320x240. (or if you used the 256 color software renderer though even that supported the same maximum resolution of 1440x900) The shading in 256 color mode is a bit ugly though (same for the DOS TRI -though I think that also supported a highcolor mode, at least the full fersion -the demo doesn't seem to though it does support 640x480 resolution in 256 colors) You could definitely get away with limited use of textures and nice use of G-shading. Laura's model could probably be done perfectly acceptably with no textures at all, only a few polygon "decals" here and there would likely suffice. (with shading in appropriate areas of course) In the actual game I think the pack, her eyes, and maybe parts of hair or shoes have any textures at all. (and the eyes are just black) On top of that, lots of the environment are done with sprites (2D scaled bitmap tiles, no distortion or rotation), particularly vegitation. I know it would mean a different game engine being used entirely (in the context of the historical Tomb Raider for the Jag), but there are a lot of places where voxel rendering would be preferably over polygons. Edited December 17, 2009 by kool kitty89 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari_Owl Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Fair point - my only experience is with the PSX (or Saturn) versions (i would hope the PC versions were better) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvio Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Fair point - my only experience is with the PSX (or Saturn) versions (i would hope the PC versions were better) Hello all! This is actually my first post in this message board! I would love to be part of a project like this! I could do the modeling and texture mappping; I have quite a bit of expirience building pretty good looking low poly count models, as I was part of two game projects in the early 90's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kool kitty89 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Fair point - my only experience is with the PSX (or Saturn) versions (i would hope the PC versions were better) I'm not too sure about how the DOS version of TR1 compares though, at least for average gaming PCs at the time. (if you wanted a decent framerate, you'd probably be stuck with the lower res mode, then you'd have trade-offs between texture perspective correction and color depth as well) I've only seen the demo (which only supports 320x200 and 640x480 256 colors and 3 detail levels -for perspective correction -lowest with none at all) and it chugs in DOSBox at the highest settings on my 2 GHz Turion laptop. (not sure how real hardware would compare, but generally running at ~20M cycles/s in DOSbox -but that doesn't seem to directly corespond to instructions emulated/s as I've run games far below what would be their minimum speed requirements with still decen tresults -like x-wing or Doom at 12M cycles, Wolf3D at less than 2M cycles etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari_Owl Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Perspective correct t-mapping is - shall we say, problematic at speed on the Jag - certain compromises need to be made - unfortunately Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Perspective correct t-mapping is - shall we say, problematic at speed on the Jag - certain compromises need to be made - unfortunately I still think a great idea would be someone who has experience with making renderers(maybe someone like CrazyAce) and others willing to learn(perhaps SubQMod) putting their heads together and working on a renderer for the community where everyone willing could perhaps have some input in. I think only in cooperation can you achieve the best possible speeds, such as Gorfs and yours eventual cooperation towards refining the main ram techniques. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kool kitty89 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Perspective correct t-mapping is - shall we say, problematic at speed on the Jag - certain compromises need to be made - unfortunately The original tombraider on PSX didn't use any at all, ad thus had terrible "fish eye" warping problems. (not sure if th eSaturn was better in this respect) I think TRII utilized subdivided affine mapping to address the warping to some degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari_Owl Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Hey i didn't say it wasn't possible, theres some in my demo for a start - but there are certain compromises too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvio Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 OK! So.. I'm excited enough to at least give it a go for a Lara model, I'll start tonight! I don't even have a Jag! Ha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari_Owl Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 But don't expect me to do a TR game...i loathe the TR games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) Perspective correct t-mapping is - shall we say, problematic at speed on the Jag - certain compromises need to be made - unfortunately The original tombraider on PSX didn't use any at all, ad thus had terrible "fish eye" warping problems. (not sure if th eSaturn was better in this respect) I think TRII utilized subdivided affine mapping to address the warping to some degree. Most sony games were plagued by the horrible hardwired affine texturing of the PS1. Again, the at a lower poly count and slower frame rates, the Jag Texturing was superior. Edited December 20, 2009 by Gorf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 OK! So.. I'm excited enough to at least give it a go for a Lara model, I'll start tonight! I don't even have a Jag! Ha! Well hold up a minute. Ask someone working on a 3d engine like JagMod or AO if they would be interested looking into plugging it into their engine for laughs and giggles when you are done. And if so ask them in what format they would want the 3d model in or how to go about making it compatible with what they need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 Atari Owl....Ain't nothing wrong about TR games...Perhaps you get some TR goodness for Christmas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyace Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Perspective correct t-mapping is - shall we say, problematic at speed on the Jag - certain compromises need to be made - unfortunately I still think a great idea would be someone who has experience with making renderers(maybe someone like CrazyAce) and others willing to learn(perhaps SubQMod) putting their heads together and working on a renderer for the community where everyone willing could perhaps have some input in. I think only in cooperation can you achieve the best possible speeds, such as Gorfs and yours eventual cooperation towards refining the main ram techniques. Just a thought. Atari Owl has a really good renderer already ,his demo is excellent. At the moment I've got a wireframe geometry wars style game that needs my attention , which doesn't actually require anything in terms of texturing - and I've managed to completely ignore it over the last month or two due to work related programming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorsten Günther Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 But don't expect me to do a TR game...i loathe the TR games Perhaps a Ratmania type game then? Just kidding, your current project obviously eats up all your Jag time anyway. Thorsten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari_Owl Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Heh But many thanks for the understanding Thorsten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Perspective correct t-mapping is - shall we say, problematic at speed on the Jag - certain compromises need to be made - unfortunately I still think a great idea would be someone who has experience with making renderers(maybe someone like CrazyAce) and others willing to learn(perhaps SubQMod) putting their heads together and working on a renderer for the community where everyone willing could perhaps have some input in. I think only in cooperation can you achieve the best possible speeds, such as Gorfs and yours eventual cooperation towards refining the main ram techniques. Just a thought. Atari Owl has a really good renderer already ,his demo is excellent. At the moment I've got a wireframe geometry wars style game that needs my attention , which doesn't actually require anything in terms of texturing - and I've managed to completely ignore it over the last month or two due to work related programming. Right. But that is AO's renderer. It would be nice if the community had a nice renderer that anyone could use if they wanted. I wasn't volunteering you CA, unless you wanted to be volunteered. :)I was just thinking about people who seemed to have experience making renderers who could possibly give tips/pointers on how to make one to those willing. I think SubQmod at one time wanted to be taught how to and where for's of rendering. It just occured to me a community project to create a kick ass renderer for the community in general to use would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Well hold up a minute. Ask someone working on a 3d engine like JagMod Yeah right..i've been waiting over 11 years now for him to get me a renderer. At this point you'd have better luck getting Scatologic to cough up theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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