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What chance of a 'Tomb Raider'type game on the Jaggie


carmel_andrews

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Atari Owl has a really good renderer already :) ,his demo is excellent. At the moment I've got a wireframe geometry wars style game that needs my attention , which doesn't actually require anything in terms of texturing - and I've managed to completely ignore it over the last month or two due to work related programming.

 

As far as Atari Owl's renderer, I think he's worked too hard and too long for anyone to expect him to give it away.

I especially find it rather tasteless for those of you offering it to the public.

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Perspective correct t-mapping is - shall we say, problematic at speed on the Jag - certain compromises need to be made - unfortunately

 

I still think a great idea would be someone who has experience with making renderers(maybe someone like CrazyAce) and others willing to learn(perhaps SubQMod) putting their heads together and working on a renderer for the community where everyone willing could perhaps have some input in. I think only in cooperation can you achieve the best possible speeds, such as Gorfs and yours eventual cooperation towards refining the main ram techniques. Just a thought.

 

Main code took me two days to figure out. Quite a huge difference from that and writing a usable renderer.

SubQMod from what I understand has much more pressing matters to attend to , much more important to anything

Jaguar related.

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Perspective correct t-mapping is - shall we say, problematic at speed on the Jag - certain compromises need to be made - unfortunately

 

I still think a great idea would be someone who has experience with making renderers(maybe someone like CrazyAce) and others willing to learn(perhaps SubQMod) putting their heads together and working on a renderer for the community where everyone willing could perhaps have some input in. I think only in cooperation can you achieve the best possible speeds, such as Gorfs and yours eventual cooperation towards refining the main ram techniques. Just a thought.

 

Main code took me two days to figure out. Quite a huge difference from that and writing a usable renderer.

SubQMod from what I understand has much more pressing matters to attend to , much more important to anything

Jaguar related.

 

There's nothing more important than this. He must drop whatever he is doing, whatever it is, and begin on this right now. lol

 

Of course I mean AFTER oh nevermind.

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Atari Owl has a really good renderer already :) ,his demo is excellent. At the moment I've got a wireframe geometry wars style game that needs my attention , which doesn't actually require anything in terms of texturing - and I've managed to completely ignore it over the last month or two due to work related programming.

 

As far as Atari Owl's renderer, I think he's worked too hard and too long for anyone to expect him to give it away.

I especially find it rather tasteless for those of you offering it to the public.

 

I'm not offering it to the public - so please don't imply that I am.

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OK just to make the position absolutely clear

Our renderer is NOT open, its no more available than the Battlesphere one, possibly even less so.

 

It's not like anyone would make use of it anyway. Lets face it..we have tons of sources to Jag games and so far the

ONLY thing we have seen is a DOOM hack that wont get released anyway. I for one am completelyin agreement with you.

That and as far as I am concerned no one has any right to it just because the fans say so. You've worked way too

hard on this project and you should do as you see fit with it.

 

I'm also very busy on our own projects and i'm NOT in a position to collaborate on anything at the moment either.

 

Here, here!( or is that Hear, Hear!) :P

Edited by Gorf
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Atari Owl has a really good renderer already :) ,his demo is excellent. At the moment I've got a wireframe geometry wars style game that needs my attention , which doesn't actually require anything in terms of texturing - and I've managed to completely ignore it over the last month or two due to work related programming.

 

As far as Atari Owl's renderer, I think he's worked too hard and too long for anyone to expect him to give it away.

I especially find it rather tasteless for those of you offering it to the public.

 

I'm not offering it to the public - so please don't imply that I am.

I did not...you did..or at least that is how that statement came across.

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OK!

So..

I'm excited enough to at least give it a go for a Lara model, I'll start tonight!

 

I don't even have a Jag! Ha! :)

 

Well hold up a minute. Ask someone working on a 3d engine like JagMod or AO if they would be interested looking into plugging it into their engine for laughs and giggles when you are done. And if so ask them in what format they would want the 3d model in or how to go about making it compatible with what they need.

Well, A model is a model, I can format it anyway anybody wants it after it's done, provided there are tools, of course, but mainly I just want to see how low of a poly count I can make a model of Lara and still look like Lara, you know? If worst come to worse I can redo the model in a specific app for the jag, which would be much easier having done it already in an app which I know by heart (3d studio)

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Well, A model is a model, I can format it anyway anybody wants it after it's done, provided there are tools, of course, but mainly I just want to see how low of a poly count I can make a model of Lara and still look like Lara, you know? If worst come to worse I can redo the model in a specific app for the jag, which would be much easier having done it already in an app which I know by heart (3d studio)

 

You must forgive JagChris. He's a bit thick skulled at times. He knows Jagmod is essentially useless anymore

yet he somehow still holds hope. Who knows, maybe Jagmod will make me look stupid and actually come up with

a renderer before Christ's second comming. Then again....Im not holding my breath and neither should you.

 

 

Also I am quite capable of doing 3D models on my own so the likely hood of me personnaly needing

outside help is unlikely.

Edited by Gorf
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Well, A model is a model, I can format it anyway anybody wants it after it's done, provided there are tools, of course, but mainly I just want to see how low of a poly count I can make a model of Lara and still look like Lara, you know? If worst come to worse I can redo the model in a specific app for the jag, which would be much easier having done it already in an app which I know by heart (3d studio)

 

You must forgive JagChris. He's a bit thick skulled at times. He knows Jagmod is essentially useless anymore

yet he somehow still holds hope. Who knows, maybe Jagmod will make me look stupid and actually come up with

a renderer before Christ's second comming. Then again....Im not holding my breath and neither should you.

 

 

Also I am quite capable of doing 3D models on my own so the likely hood of me personnaly needing

outside help is unlikely.

WOW! Sorry to offer my help, sheesh...

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Personally I think this thread is kind of insulting to any developer with the least bit of self-esteem, but okay.

Even thinking it would merely take some developers to stick their heads together and end up with a "kick ass" renderer is such an insult to the hard work Atariowl put into his. Let's face it, even with complete and documented source codes out there, nothing would happen with it.

Look at all the code out there, nothing ever happened with that. Why? Because pushing the Jag is hard. Developing proper games is hard too, and time consuming. There are only very few people in the Jag scene with the patience, motivation or skill to develop a game on their own, let alone push the hardware to its limits at the same time.

 

However I was more suprised that people actually ask for Tomb Raider.

Why is everybody always so eager to get games ported, that they bash on the system it came out for, but would love to play on the Jag?

 

I mean, just think about it. It's games that make a system worthwhile.

If you like Playstation games, why not get a Playstation?

And if you have one already, well, what's the point in wishing for an (illegal) port of something that already exists?

It will never happen, because the rights for Tomb Raider cost more than anybody in the community could afford or would be willing to waste for reserving the rights. Even if the money was there, the rights would probably not even be available to port the game.

And last but most importantly why even bother?

 

If you want Playstation games, go get a playstation. You can find it dirt cheap everywhere.

 

Being a die-hard adventure fan, and even liking action-adventures very much, I got bored with Tomb Raider very soon, after it first came out.

It just isn't a very fun game, if you look at it carefully. It was a proof of concept and it was used to showcase the hardware like most games are today and it was the first game to hype a female main character that much, to even interest the average joe in the game.

However who would have cared for the game if the main character was male? Look at Indiana Jones and the Tower of Babel.

Similar game mechanics and better gameplay actually, much more variety in level design too and better puzzles.

Yet, hardly anybody even knows the game.

 

Personally I enjoyed both TR1 and 2, especially two was a lot more interesting, but still suffering similar problems.

But after finishing it once, I never cared to play those games again. I got so bored with later Tomb Raider parts, they I never even bothered to finish them. To me there never was enough inovation and too much trying to speak to the mainstream audience to keep me interested.

However, those of you who really love the game, are welcome to keep loving it. :)

 

What I really wanted to point out is, why not create something new and unique?

If somebody has the skill to create a 3D action adventure or rpg game, why waste it like this?

And if somebody lacks the skill, even the thought of porting something is ridiculous anyway.

 

About models, I don't think the problem really is getting models or creating them for that matter.

The problem is everything else, as it's not there. ;)

Edited by Starcat
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Personally I think this thread is kind of insulting to any developer with the least bit of self-esteem, but okay.

Even thinking it would merely take some developers to stick their heads together and end up with a "kick ass" renderer is such an insult to the hard work Atariowl put into his. Let's face it, even with complete and documented source codes out there, nothing would happen with it.

 

Exactly! I've learned one thing about the Jag community. Lots of people like to talk the talk but seem to

have two broken legs when it comes to walking the walk. Also, most are fans who are great at back seat

driving but put little up to contribute to the cause they so heartily champion. If they wasted even half

the amount of time actually looking for someone talented and willing to help us where we really need it,

I think we'd probably have these things we need by now....to JagChris's credit, he does indeed talk to

others outside the community trying to find someone willing to write a usable compiler for the J-RISC's.

 

Look at all the code out there, nothing ever happened with that. Why? Because pushing the Jag is hard.

Developing proper games is hard too, and time consuming. There are only very few people in the Jag

scene with the patience, motivation or skill to develop a game on their own, let alone push the

hardware to its limits at the same time.

 

I lack render writing skills and have no problem admitting that. If I were capable

you'd have seen at least ten finished releases by now.

 

However I was more suprised that people actually ask for Tomb Raider.

Why is everybody always so eager to get games ported, that they bash

on the system it came out for, but would love to play on the Jag?

 

Reminds me of an Alanis Morissette song. :ponder:

 

I mean, just think about it. It's games that make a system worthwhile.

If you like Playstation games, why not get a Playstation?

And if you have one already, well, what's the point in wishing for an

(illegal) port of something that already exists?

 

Bragging rights and really nothing else. No real logical reason. Hey im the first one to want to

push the Jag to it's limits but a game like TR would be the last one I'd pick to try. Remember,

the term fan is short for 'fanatic'. Keep in mind these are people who jumped for joy at the

release of Frog Feast. fun game but hardly pushing the Jaguar to it's limits. Hey We started

out with an old classic (Gorf) but we then wanted to move on to games that game really make

use of the power the Jag is capable of.

 

It will never happen, because the rights for Tomb Raider cost more than anybody in the community could

afford or would be willing to waste for reserving the rights. Even if the money was there, the rights

would probably not even be available to port the game.

 

Fans don't consider these things. They are more interested in being able to say their favorite system

has another release....even if it's utter crap. Like I said, fanaticism.

 

What I really wanted to point out is, why not create something new and unique?

If somebody has the skill to create a 3D action adventure or rpg game, why waste it like this?

And if somebody lacks the skill, even the thought of porting something is ridiculous anyway.

 

I'll tell you what...if I had no conscience, I could make a lot of money releasing garbage

for the Jaguar. Too bad for me I actually take pride in what I release. :roll:

 

About models, I don't think the problem really is getting models or creating them for that matter.

The problem is everything else, as it's not there. ;)

 

Actually in my case, the problem is no one listens when you try to tell them this.

Folks like Marvio, (God bless him), would do better to understand that model makers

are a dime a dozen and anyone with a decent 3D program can create them...Shit if

I can do it, anyone can. What we really need and always needed is a good main RAM

GPU code compiler and a very high efficiency polygon renderer. Models are the least

of my worries.

 

If I had such tools, as I have said, you'd all be playing some rather fun 3D classic

updates. Most of the game logic and AI are there already...However, I don't want them

running less than 60 FPS and on the Jaguar I do not believe they need to with the

right renderer.

 

Hey fans, it's not like we dont appreciate your enthusiasm but the last thing we need

are more things we dont need.

 

Great points Lars. No suprise that you only see such insight coming from another developer.

 

:)

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Personally I think this thread is kind of insulting to any developer with the least bit of self-esteem, but okay.

Even thinking it would merely take some developers to stick their heads together and end up with a "kick ass" renderer is such an insult to the hard work Atariowl put into his. Let's face it, even with complete and documented source codes out there, nothing would happen with it.

 

 

lol Merry Christmas Lars. How am I insulting Atari Owl? I mean no insult to AO whatsoever. I think kick ass would mean any community renderer more powerful than the stock Atari 3d one.

 

 

SubQ at one point expressed interest in learning to make a renderer. He is a man with skill and motivation in programming the Jag, as evidenced by his new and developing toolchain for the system you are most likely using. Later on if he got the itch again and someone were to begin to show him those things I believe things would indeed begin to happen. Just my thought.

 

Merry Christmas everyone!

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However I was more suprised that people actually ask for Tomb Raider.

Why is everybody always so eager to get games ported, that they bash on the system it came out for, but would love to play on the Jag?

 

I mean, just think about it. It's games that make a system worthwhile.

If you like Playstation games, why not get a Playstation?

 

 

I think its because we love the Jaguar, I think we love the era in which it was born and lived. We wish it had been more of a success. Seeing these images of mainstream succesful games of that era running on the Jag probably partly fulfills that wish we have that the Jag had 'made it' in the world and had those popular games on it. We'd like to see what that may have been like. That is what it seems to be for me. I cant really speak for anybody else. :)

Edited by JagChris
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I'm trying to figure you guys out, really, I am.

 

What else do you do with a dead console? You try to make it do things it wasn't intended to do! That's why people make NIC's for Apple II's, and why I can actually "surf the web" with my IIGS :) There's no real point in doing it, although in the NIC instance it's nice to have a way to connect the AII to my PC to transfer files; We do it because it's fun to see these older computers pushed to their absolute limits...

 

specifically on the Tomb raider thing... I happen to like the games, but that's besides the point. We didn't have to call it Tomb raider, you now? If you just call it something different, don't copy the stories + models exactly you'd have no problem with licensing..

 

Also, why is this thread such a slap n the face for any developer? Are there still active developers for the Jag? Are there commercial games available for it? Please do correct me if I'm wrong... It's great that somebody put so much time on a renderer for the Jag, but why isn't that available to the comunity? Again, can one still profit from it?

 

Example:

 

Just yesterday I was playing "Donkey Kong" and "Gate crasher" on my CoCo3, they were both programmed by the same guy, he was able to replicate the arcade version of Donkey Kong on the CoCo! Is there a point to that? Not really any other then to see if it could be done, it's a brilliant piece of code, seeing that the CoCo3 is infinitely inferior to the arcade machine; Gate crasher is a doom style game, again, what the real point in that? No other then to see if the CoCo could handle a doom 3d style renderer, he distributed both his engine and games for free, because who the heck would buy it?

 

I don't know guys, guess I'm just used to a sense of comunity when it comes to vintage computers...

We do it because we love it, kinda thing, you know?

 

Gorf:

 

I know modelers are a dime a dozen, good animators (specially in the constraints of a game for a limited system) not so much, but that's a whole other story, but in the spirit of helping out, which seems to be one of your pet peeves about the Jag comunity, I was offerng what I know how to do, I could also make the Sound track and SFX's for games, have done both in the past.

Edited by marvio
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I know modelers are a dime a dozen, good animators (specially in the constraints of a game for a limited system) not so much, but that's a whole other story, but in the spirit of helping out, which seems to be one of your pet peeves about the Jag comunity, I was offerng what I know how to do, I could also make the Sound track and SFX's for games, have done both in the past.

 

I dont think you understand what I said at all actually. I have no problem with folk helping out.

I have a problem with folk trying to help out in areas where we dont need any such help. Now if

you were to tell me you'd write me a kick balls renderer, I'd be more than glad to take it.

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Don't take it personally, Marvio. Among vintage videogame and computing communities, the Jaguar's is among the most unusual in terms of community, helping each other out, and generally being reasonable. It seems the Jaguar was cursed both in its commercial life and now in its after life.

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Don't take it personally, Marvio. Among vintage videogame and computing communities, the Jaguar's is among the most unusual in terms of community, helping each other out, and generally being reasonable. It seems the Jaguar was cursed both in its commercial life and now in its after life.

 

I think you dont know the foggiest of what you are talking about. I suppose releasing the main code rules was a detriment huh?

I supposed making lessons for those novices was a mean thing to do now was'nt it? I think the problem is people like yourself

want everything and contribute nothing while bashing those that actually do. When is the last time you gave anything to the jag

community bsides attacking those that do?....that's what I thought.

 

funny how you show up only for the purpose of bitching and moaning(out of place at that)

 

Perhaps more walk and less talk? BTW...this is off topic too.

Edited by Gorf
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Look, I don't want to get into a pointless argument again with you Gorf. You're a naturally confrontational person and I can only assume you must not realize how you come across most of the time. I just hate to see someone get turned off to the Jaguar community just because they don't feel welcome there. My point stands that the Jaguar community is among the least friendly and accommodating to new and old fans alike, though I do appreciate recent steps that have been taken, yours included. However, this topic seems like old times all over again, so the more things change the more things stay the same I guess.

 

It's true, not everyone can contribute software or hardware, but some of us contribute in other ways. It doesn't make our contribution any more or less worthwhile than someone elses. My particular contribution happens to be books and films, where I have, do and will continue to mention the Jaguar and its software in a historical context. I realize your particular talent is not in those areas, Gorf, but I won't hold that against you. I hope to see more of what you can contribute to the Jaguar community in your own area of expertise. I'm certainly a fan of your Jaguar Gorf CD, which sits proudly on a shelf with the rest of my Jaguar stuff.

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