Harmony Cart Interference

[RevEng]

I hear what you're saying, but you'd have to pry my Longhorn video-modded 2600 from my cold dead hands. The RF unit in my 2600 was dying, and LE saved my 2600. I'm also going to order one of his 7800 mods soon too. A standard composite/s-video connector is just less of a hassle, and the stereo sound in the 2600 mod is sweet.

 

I know there's the school of thought that some games use the RF blur to their advantage (like the tires in Enduro) but I think if it was practical for Atari to release composite connectors with the VCS they would have done so.

 

Maybe LE can add an optional "blur" circuit to his mods, so the user can decide if they don't want perfect clarity! :D

[+Philsan]

Monk, I disagree with you.

Before buying an Amiga with RGB output in 1987, I used computers and consoles connected to TV with RF cables.

Now, VCS apart, I connect old computers with composite or s-video cables and I would never return to RF cables image quality.

Moreover, composite/s-video image quality is good but still analogic, different from emulator's digital perfect one.

In the future I think I will mod one of my VCSs.

But I agree with you that, for people like us, it's a bit expensive to send our consoles overseas.

 

Returning in topic, when I will receive it, I will test the shielded RF cable I have bought in Ebay.

If image's quality is perfect, I am persuaded with a similar cable you'll solve your problems.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Philsan

[Monk]

Monk, I disagree with you.

 

Go ahead, Philsan - it is your right. But you can't disagree about what MY opinion and viewpoint of this is. And when you understand this much, you understand there's nothing to disagree on - I wasn't talking universally, I was only talking about my OWN viewpoint and opinions. Thus, disagreement is not even possible here.

 

Before buying an Amiga with RGB output in 1987,

 

Now hold on. I wasn't talking about sophisticated computers with operating systems and small text that you have to be able to read.

 

But still, even Amiga games look so much better in a real TV than any VGA monitor. I remember once making this cool blue-effect when I was drawing a mountain background in Deluxe Paint III for my small animation. I thought I made trees that looked really cool, mystical and realistic.

 

Then I saw the same picture with my friend's Amiga 2000 with a RGB monitor - I was shocked! My picture looked crummy and the pixels were clear - and that clarity destroyed the whole effect!

 

In any case, televisions are BRIGHT, monitors are DIM.. bright pixel graphics always looks better anyway. For gameplaying, bright and colorful pixels of a bigscreen television always beat some silly VGA monitor with it's overly clear pictures. If you are going to have this kind of pixels, you might as well use an emulator already.

 

You know, when you emulate things, everything looks the same - it's those same, awfully clear pixels all the time - it just feels and seems so surreal, not realistic at all. When you look at an Atari 800 game or an Atari 2600 game, A Commodore 16 game or even an Amiga game without any kind of PAL emulation - it just looks WRONG.

 

With the real machine and a television, preferrably with RF cable, the picture is just perfect for all these systems (well, I can't say for Atari 800, I haven't seen it yet on a tv, but I always look at it's graphics in an emulator and feel like something important is missing from the graphics).

 

I of course meant only for ME, everyone can surely make up their own mind and have the freedom to have their own opinions. I was only trying to express the lack of need for any video-mod for my Atari 2600jr, don't try to push that on me ok? Thanks.

 

- Monk

[Monk]

I hear what you're saying, but you'd have to pry my Longhorn video-modded 2600 from my cold dead hands.

 

To do what? I am not gonna have to pry anything from your cold, dead hands.

 

Relax, man - I wasn't attacking YOUR need for video-modding, just defending MY lack of such need.

 

But in that same token, I feel sad how modern people, even when doing 'retro stuff', are somehow mesmerized by the technological advancements, and immediately want to marry the modern with the old, and they don't see anything wrong with this - so they do it until there's not much left from the authentic, old machine, but lots of new, modern junk has been applied all over the place.. and then they say 'ah, this is just like the old days'..

 

People don't seem to realize that mixing the old with the new, they create disharmony and destroy the spirit that otherwise would be there.. using the old machine in the authentic way. Even though the Harmony Cart is kind of essential for practical reasons (no one can really easily keep track of and switch hundreds and hundreds of clumsy cartridges), I even feel the effect there. There is slightly less feeling playing Cosmic Ark from Harmony Cart than there is with playing it from the original cart.

 

So with Atari 2600 and many others, this kind of thing is very necessary. But then there are computers with floppy disk drives and such, which can perfectly nicely load the games from the disks.. but this is not good enough for many people, they connect their old computers to new PC's and use all kinds of weird crap in order to get things loaded FAST, as they don't have time to WAIT anymore.. they always have to rush everywhere, even to nostalgy!

 

In any case - I am not really against you guys using video mods, I am just trying to mainly just explain how I don't really NEED any video mods, and in fact such expensive mod would make the picture WORSE (in my eyes). I like authenticity as much as I can possibly get it. Why fix it if it isn't broken, etc.. video mods for me are not necessary.

 

But I am perhaps also trying to show you a viewpoint or a perspective, which many of you might not have seen otherwise; that there is another way of looking at things except the mainstream (within the retro realm) consensus of what is 'necessary' and what is 'a must', etc..

 

Maybe LE can add an optional "blur" circuit to his mods, so the user can decide if they don't want perfect clarity!

 

Yeah. So instead of just using the simplest and most authentic way of simply having the actual, original connection system and thus getting the great, perfect picture - you would have me heavily MODIFY the original technology (in effect, raping it and mutilating it), creating disharmony (no pun intended) and all just for the greed of the modern human - everything has to be soooo polished and sooo materialistically shiny and new and HD-PLASMA-LCD! CRT is obsolete and.. why do people like you even use real Atari's? Emulation would solve all your problems much more easily - and THEN, as if this all wasn't bad enough, you'd have me then ARTIFICIALLY create even MORE modern stuff to try to EMULATE the old picture quality!

 

This suggestion sadly shows exactly how most modern people think, no matter how 'retro' people they are or how much they 'love' their old computers and systems - if they CAN rape and mutilate an old machine to make it more 'efficient' or more 'modern picture quality' or whatever, they will. Instantly. Without hesitation.

 

To me this is a bit shocking.. you are actually mocking people for wanting to use their system with AUTHENTICITY instead of the mainstream way of just trying to optimize everything until there's nothing worthwhile, original hardware left!

 

As I said previously, people like you might just as well use emulators, because after all this kind of heavy mutilation, what's the point?

 

(I know you put some smileys after your suggestion but that doesn't make it less stupid, no offense)

 

- Monk

[Longhorn Engineer]

Monk there is no mutilation in a video mod. All its doing is taking the same signals and making them into a different format which modern TVs can display. I for one really enjoy not having to look at blurry objects and snow on my screen.

[Underball]

To me this is a bit shocking.. you are actually mocking people for wanting to use their system with AUTHENTICITY instead of the mainstream way of just trying to optimize everything until there's nothing worthwhile, original hardware left!

 

As I said previously, people like you might just as well use emulators, because after all this kind of heavy mutilation, what's the point?

 

(I know you put some smileys after your suggestion but that doesn't make it less stupid, no offense)

 

- Monk

 

Well, when the vast majority of users demand video mods because the "AUTHENTICITY" you brag about maintaining looks like complete, absolute, utter shitballs - it really shouldn't shock you.

 

If Authentic terrible garbage is supposed to be valuable to you, well then you can have all my soiled toilet paper. I assure you it's authentic (no one else in the world can produce MY particular shit) and just like the original Atari 2600 RF video circuit - it stinks to high heaven.

 

Just because something is authentic doesn't make it necessarily any good, either.

[zagon]

shameless plug... Video mod?

 

 

Granted PAL is still in the works.

 

I'll order a PAL mod as soon as they are available!

 

From my point of view there's only downsides to RF-connctions:

1) The video quality is worse than composite-video or s-video.

2) The TV needs to be tuned the correct channel.

3) A TV only has one RF-input. If you have several RF-devices you have to swap the RF-cables.

(You could use one or more RF-switchboxes but that reduces the video quality even further)

4) A RF-connection is more sensitive to interference

[+SpiceWare]

Relax, man - I wasn't attacking YOUR need for video-modding, just defending MY lack of such need.

didn't you start this entire thread because of the crappy picture you were getting via RF? That sure seems to imply a need to me

[RevEng]

I hear what you're saying, but you'd have to pry my Longhorn video-modded 2600 from my cold dead hands.

 

To do what? I am not gonna have to pry anything from your cold, dead hands.

Wow, I think something was lost in the translation here, Monk.

 

Generally the "from my cold dead hands" expression means that you love something so much you'd never give it up willingly. It's a playful idiom, often used between people of agreeing viewpoints, even though that obviously wasn't the case here.

 

For the record, I didn't literally think that you were trying to take my mod away!

 

Another idiom - when I said "I hear where you're coming from" - I was acknowledging your perspective as valid. Its just not the one I would pick.

 

(I know you put some smileys after your suggestion but that doesn't make it less stupid, no offense)

My comment was not meant to be a mocking comment.

 

Some people play CDs through retro tube amps to mellow the sound.

 

This would be analogous, and some people might choose this middle ground between convenience and "authenticity".

 

In all earnestness, I hope you continue to enjoy your original-RF Atari, Monk. I really wasn't trying to covert you. I was just sharing my thoughts on the matter, "stupid" as they were.

[+thegoldenband]

AV mods don't get rid of NTSC artifacting, do they? I think that's the main thing I miss when playing via emulation; for instance, in Utopia for Intellivision I like the edge artifacts on terrain, which add a lot of depth and complexity to the graphics that wouldn't otherwise be there. And of course some systems depend on it for color in hi-res modes (I'm looking at you, Tandy CoCo).

 

So as long as that's still intact after a mod, then "authenticity" is intact. It's got nothing to do with issues like CRT vs. LCD (I vastly prefer CRT) or anything of the sort -- it's really just a question of transmitting a signal from one place to another in the most faithful way possible. To use an analogy from the world of music, it's not like tube amp vs. solid state, or analog vs. digital, but more like a balanced vs. unbalanced audio connection (see here for more on that). The former has a better signal to noise ratio, and because of that, it's MORE truthful to the original, not less so.

 

It's strange to say that an AV mod is an example of "how most modern people think" and of materialism. In the old days, everyone could and did tinker with everything, because electronics were simple enough that most people could figure things out with enough effort. To see the Atari as some perfect object that needs to be kept in its pristine, unadulterated state is actually a very modern ideal!

Edited January 22, 2010 by thegoldenband

[RevEng]

AV mods don't get rid of NTSC artifacting, do they? I think that's the main thing I miss when playing via emulation; for instance, in Utopia for Intellivision I like the edge artifacts on terrain, which add a lot of depth and complexity to the graphics that wouldn't otherwise be there. And of course some systems depend on it for color in hi-res modes (I'm looking at you, Tandy CoCo).

As I understand it, the "details that aren't there" effect is due to slower-chroma-than-luma in the NTSC/PAL video standards. Its present in video mods displaying through composite output.

 

It is greatly reduced/eliminated through mods displaying with s-video outputs.

 

Not sure about the hi-res color artifacting. Never had a high enough res modded system.

[+Philsan]

Monk, you haven't read well my post.

I have talked about Amiga only to say that previously I only had RF connections, not to make a comparison with VCS.

As I have written, I agree with you that emulator's video quality is different from original hardware and inaccettable for many of us.

I also agree with you it is way better to connect all consoles (apart new generation's ones) to CRT TVs.

What I and previous users are trying to say is that composite/s-video quality is authentic analog quality without RF interferences.

For example, Atari 800 (1979) or C64 (1982) not only have RF video output but also standard composite and s-video outputs.

You would never say that those computers video output is authentic from RF port and non-authentic from video port!

Atari VCS internal original video signal is not RF, it is RF after being modulated to the format that most 1970/80s televisions expected.

But if you prefer RF quality, no problem, it's your taste and obviously I respect it.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Philsan

[+Philsan]

I received the shielded coaxial RF cable and as promised I tested it with my 2600 jr.

I have to say that image's quality is better with 2600 jr original thin cable than with shielded coaxial RF cable.

So I am not sure if a shielded coaxial RF cable would solve Monk's problem.

Another strange thing I have just discovered:

if I wrap with my hand Harmony cart inserted in 2600 jr I get interferences;

if I wrap with my hand Harmony cart inserted in VCS nothing changes.

[+grafixbmp]

Not sure if this will mean much to anyone out there, but out of all the new types of televisions currently on the market including LCD, Plasma, DLP and the newer LED lit LCD, there is a new contender coming soon to market that incorporates the new picture quality, wide color spectrums, and resolution with the traditional look of CRTs that may soon fill a much needed gap in modern television sets. Laser Phosphor Display or LPDs are from a company called Prysm. The coolest thing is that this new tech can be made almost any size and shape so watch out Times Square.

 

http://gizmodo.com/5448167/new-laser+driven-displays-use-75-percent-less-power-than-todays-screens

[maiki]

The kind of connection depends heavily on the system I want to use speaking for myself. With Atari 2600's basic pixelated graphics I'm just happy with RF signal. it adds a lot of cool graphics features to otherwise boring simple pixelated playfield. I would even say, that a true clear RGB video is not suitable for 2600 at all, since it uncovers those ugly sharp big blocks around the screen.

 

On the other hand, on my Sega Mega Drive there's no argument for anything else than RGB. Sega's graphics are too precize and complex to be displayed through RF or composite sh*t without losing (not adding) a lot of picture information.

[R.Cade]

Sorry to necro-bump this thread, but I ran into this exact same problem recently. I have a small stack of 2600's I've been cleaning up and and composite modding (simple transistor amp with some tweaks of my own).

Anyway, I've done an (NTSC) Junior, and a vader, and they both look perfect. However, my light sixer has this exact problem with my Harmony cart (the Pitfall! interference is identical to the photos in this thread). This is a "light" sixer, but still with the internal heavy duty metal shielding and case. I thought after reassembling that giant shield it would go away, but it didn't. It's like an odd electrical interference on some games (but not all).

 

Was a solution found?

Edited January 14, 2016 by R.Cade

[R.Cade]

I figured out my problem... C208 had become detached on my board. Reattached and this interference is gone.

Perhaps some PAL consoles are missing this capacitor?

Edited January 15, 2016 by R.Cade

[Monk]

I figured out my problem... C208 had become detached on my board. Reattached and this interference is gone.

 

Perhaps some PAL consoles are missing this capacitor?

 

That's an interesting piece of information.

 

The solution I found was more crude; I simply covered the Harmony Cart in Aluminium Foil - I had to open the casing of the Atari 2600 jr for this to be possible, but it worked. If this ever happens again, I am thinking I could possibly open Harmony Cart itself, and then just use blu-tack or something to install some aluminium foil on the inside, and then put it back again.

 

 

I don't know what C208 is, or if the Atari 2600 jr has it, but if some capacitors on the motherboard seem loose or detached, that seems like an obvious and simple solution, thanks for the notification.

 

As far as Sega Genesis / Megadrive's 'precizeness' [sic] goes, well.. the word is 'precise', not 'precize', and I don't think graphics can be 'precise' or 'not precise' - only different resolutions and color depths.

 

In my opinion, anything that was created with a television / arcade monitor in mind, always looks the best in a bright CRT television (or an arcade monitor). So far, every system I have tried, has looked the best on my brightest CRT television, using the VGA2SCART-cable and as authentic (or good-looking) resolution as possible (with soft15kHz), even old DOS games and demos.

 

The exception happens when the resolution exceeds the usual 'lores', and needs something like 640x512 - but sometimes, even that looks better on the TV - for example, Sega Dreamcast's SCART-output looks much better and more pleasant to my eyes than emulated Dreamcast's output on a TFT monitor (even in a uch higher resolution).

 

The glory of CRT for the win!

 

It's not a coincidence that pretty much all emulators of 'older systems' nowadays have some sort of "TV emulation" effect implemented. Especially 'lores graphics' look just so glorious on a proper, bright, CRT television (of course of the TV is dim, it's not going to look that good).

 

Someone talked about Atari 2600's pixels looking too blocky on a monitor, so that it would look somehow wrong. I somewhat disagree, as to me, big pixels are aesthetically pleasing. People have made art out of small bricks that have become large mural-type wall 'paintings' and such, and to me, they look just fantastic. Still, a real machine on a real, bright CRT television, is always going to be the best combination in my opinion.

 

Of course modern systems that are designed to run on a high-resolution TFT monitor, might look better with that particular setup. But Sega Megadrive is certainly not one of those systems.. in my opinion, Sega Megadrive's graphics can be done true justice by a bright CRT television - I'd be glad to trade any 'precizion' [sic] to the excitement that the properly bright and TV-"blurred" graphics instill on the player/viewer/experiencer.

[Monk]

The new Harmony Cart arrived!

 

It's almost a disappointment, that there isn't any interference this time. I guess this other Atari 2600 jr. is better built.

 

Too bad my self-fixed half-paddles didn't quite work properly - gotta get a proper 'paddle', I guess. Also, sound doesn't work in that small TV anymore - this was a bit of a shock, since it always worked before, but I didn't use it, because there was no way to listen to it with headphones only (there are RCA-output cables that come out from the TV, but using them doesn't mute the TV's speakers).

 

However, with Atari 2600 jr., I don't see any other options but to use the television's volume. So I've been playing in silence, which is a shame, because of Atari's absolutely wonderful sound that I love so much.

 

In any case, it seems that either something has been done to eliminate interference between 2010 and now, or the interference-phenomenon is very 'individual Atari-specific', and might have something to do with the C208 becoming loose in the system.

 

In any case, everything seems to work (besides the Paddles and my TV's sound), and Harmony Cart is a GREAT, wonderful device, and it was shipped incredibly quickly all the way from USA to Northern Europe.

 

Thanks, Fred, this is very much appreciated!

 

It's so cool to be able to use my old collection from the handy menu and just choose games and play them - as well as watching demos. Ahh!

[Monk]

Hm, I can't edit my post.

 

Anyway, it seems I typed too soon - the interference is back! It seems that because the cable I was using was of such high quality, and the TV I was using was so tiny, that I couldn't quite make it out.

 

But with a 'normal' RF cable and a large TV, the interference is very noticeable.

 

I compared with an original 'Cosmic Ark' - even with the 'normal' RF cable, its picture is so clear and good, that I couldn't wish for more.

 

With Harmony Cart, however, the intereference is again there. Before I open up the Atari 2600 jr. and start applying some aluminium foil, I'd like to know;

 

- - Is it somehow possible to neatly open up the Harmony Cart, and re-seal it back, so I could put aluminium foil inside? I mean, surely it can -somehow- be done, but I mean, is there a handy, user-friendly way to do it?

 

I could also look into the C208-thing (I have no idea what that is though).

 

It's odd, as many Atari 2600s as I have handled, I have -never- seen one, that would be interference-free with Harmony Cart (without the aluminium foil applied). Am I really that unlucky? Do they all have loose C208s, or are PAL Atari 2600s really missing the capacitor?

 

Well, at least I know how to fix this with the aluminium foil..

 

The downside of the aluminium foil solution is that I have to keep the lid off, so it looks a bit ugly on the table. It'd be a neater solution, if I could open up the Harmony Cart and put the aluminium foil there. But I am not very handy, so I don't dare start tinkering with it unless I know it can safely be opened and closed without harm.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Monk

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Why don't you just use the high quality RF cable?

[Monk]

Why don't you just use the high quality RF cable?

 

It doesn't remove the interference.

 

I guess my explanation wasn't completely clear.

 

I mean, the combination of higher quality RF-cable with the other TV being so tiny (it's really small) made the interference less noticeable.

 

With a larger TV, the interference is very annoying, as usual.

 

If you have read this thread, you should know that the problem is not in the RF cable itself, but it's between Harmony Cart and the Atari. Even the other 'multicarts' produce this interference effect, not only Harmony Cart.

 

However, with the pictured aluminium foil solution, the interference can be eliminated.

 

I just tinkered and experimented with my old aluminium foil, but I guess it's too wrinkly, because I couldn't find any solution with it that would've worked. I plan to buy new aluminium foil next month, so I can continue testing, and hopefully find some kind of -elegant- solution to the problem. It'd be kind of sad to have to keep the Atari open, and not be able to use it properly (I am not even sure how to use the 'Select / Reset' buttons without the lid, it has been a long time).

 

I wish I could either 1) Open the Harmony Cart, put aluminium foil inside, and close it or 2) Know, -what- bit exactly inside the Atari is the one that reacts to Harmony Cart this way, so I could perhaps just put some aluminium foil on top of that, or something.

 

I don't really understand electronics very well, so this is always stressful and difficult for me .. I plan to somehow arrange a video-modded NTSC-Atari 2600 jr. to exist on my table some day, but that's far in the future, if it happens.

 

If it was as simple a solution as you suggest, don't you think I would just have done that, instead of writing these posts - and started a 195 post-long thread about the problem?

 

If a simple cable could've fixed it, this thread would not exist.

 

I mean, come on. Give me some credit.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Monk

[Thomas Jentzsch]

 

BTW: Have you seen this thread? There a bad power supply caused the problems. But most likely that's unrelated to the problem here.

[Monk]

After some more extensive testing, it looks like the interference is not as bad as it was previously. I can hardly notice it in many games, and in some that I can notice it in, it's not that distracting after all. Sometimes I really have to try hard to be able to see the interference (depending on the game), and in other games, it forms a different pattern, that somehow fits the game graphics nicely.

 

So I decided not to try to open up the Harmony Cart or do any aluminium folio-modifications to the Atari 2600 jr., I mean - the pixels can still be seen clearly and the games are still awesome and atmospheric, so it doesn't matter all that much. Plus, when I concentrate on the game and the atmosphere, sound and graphics, I often forget that the interference even exists at all.

 

The few games that really display the interference in an almost distracting way (Pitfall!, for example), can always be purchased as separate cartridges anyway. Atari 2600 jr. is a wonderful, magical machine, and Harmony Cart complements it perfectly!

 

Old games benefit from CRT televisions, and interference often goes together with RF signals, so it just adds to the charm in a way that a modern TFT-lifestyle cannot emulate. So what's a little interference every now and then in a few games.. just added charm, basically.

[Mr SQL]

After some more extensive testing, it looks like the interference is not as bad as it was previously. I can hardly notice it in many games, and in some that I can notice it in, it's not that distracting after all. Sometimes I really have to try hard to be able to see the interference (depending on the game), and in other games, it forms a different pattern, that somehow fits the game graphics nicely.

 

So I decided not to try to open up the Harmony Cart or do any aluminium folio-modifications to the Atari 2600 jr., I mean - the pixels can still be seen clearly and the games are still awesome and atmospheric, so it doesn't matter all that much. Plus, when I concentrate on the game and the atmosphere, sound and graphics, I often forget that the interference even exists at all.

 

The few games that really display the interference in an almost distracting way (Pitfall!, for example), can always be purchased as separate cartridges anyway. Atari 2600 jr. is a wonderful, magical machine, and Harmony Cart complements it perfectly!

 

Old games benefit from CRT televisions, and interference often goes together with RF signals, so it just adds to the charm in a way that a modern TFT-lifestyle cannot emulate. So what's a little interference every now and then in a few games.. just added charm, basically.

 

Monk,

why not get a SuperCharger too? It's a 1982 Flashcart that doesn't have a modern processor to produce interference:

 

You can play Pitfall! and all of the 4K games without any interference, and you can load them from Tape or the CD add-on for a more retro gaming experience.

 

You can also flash the Harmony cart (just rename a file) to act like a normal cart and just play a game when you plug it in; agree with your observation that the menu is not a retro gaming experience. And a round chunk of ferrite on the video cable should soak up most of the interference like a mini Faraday cage - add more of them for a better effect.