Harmony Cart Interference

[+Philsan]

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Harmony cart, more than other normal carts, needs a very good RF cable.

 

After having tested 2600 jr. with VCRs or aerial bigger cables assuggested by Monk (results: no Harmony cart interferences but poor image quality), I have tested the console with another standard RF thin cable.

But, instead of my spare RF cables, this time I have used the brand new RF cable bundled with my new 2600 jr. console.

No interferences with PAL60 and PAL50 firmwares!

 

So, users with interference problems must only buy a new cable (2600 jr.) or buy a new cable and open the console (VCS or 2600).

 

The new question is: where to buy very good quality RF cables?

[Monk]

Actually, I don't know what the problem is. It clearly isn't the cable. That is pretty obvious by now.

No, it clearly IS the cable or the plugs of the cable.

 

RF cables are a bit sensitive. The plugs have to be mounted correctly and also the plugs have to fit well into the device, else the shielding will not work well. Also I have seen devices and plugs with the center signal pins shortened to the other grounding connector, which will have the same bad results.

 

Hmm, you may be right. The coaxial cable solution worked quite nicely with the NTSC Atari - there's still interference but it's in a tolerable level, so if I just get a NTSC television, everything should be perfect then.

 

I have kinda given up on the PAL Atari anyway, as it doesn't even support paddles - but for now I must use it because it's the only Atari I have that outputs color and sound with my televisions..

 

Philsan is asking a good question- WHERE to get good RF cables? It should be RF/RCA-cable - meanig, RF-cable with shielding AND RCA-plugs!

 

That might be a tad difficult thing to find in the modern world.. but I guess this is making a lot of sense now. If I just had a great quality well shielded and grounded RF/RCA-cable, then things would work just perfectly. I guess the Coaxial with the plugs isn't a perfect solution, perhaps there is some 'leakage' or something as maybe they can never be tightly enough fitted for the grounding to be as perfect as with the hand.

 

Thanks for all your patience btw, and sorry for my stupidity.. it's an inborn quality.

 

- Monk

[Monk]

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Harmony cart, more than other normal carts, needs a very good RF cable.

 

 

So, users with interference problems must only buy a new cable (2600 jr.) or buy a new cable and open the console (VCS or 2600).

 

The new question is: where to buy very good quality RF cables?

 

Yes, another question comes to mind; are there users which have a Harmony Cart and also Atari 2600 VCS/Darth Vader, that do NOT have any interference? (in which case we can probably conclude that the NTSC-Ataris have better inbuilt cable systems, or the american television standard makes a big difference here, and I mean the standard for the physical cable connections and such)

 

I would like to see some videos from other people .. For example, the menu is still garbled and gives that horrid dentist drill noise even with the coaxial cable.. I'd like to know if it's the Atari's fault - the NTSC version gives more clear menu, but I can't say about the noise (it does give a weird sound but I think that's just because the sound doesn't work with my television with NTSC signal)

 

Do many people have absolutely clear menus, with RF connections?

 

- Monk

[Monk]

But, instead of my spare RF cables, this time I have used the brand new RF cable bundled with my new 2600 jr. console.

No interferences with PAL60 and PAL50 firmwares!

 

Just how 'new' this Atari 2600jr is? Did you try with the older cables, if it still gives interference? (I am thinking, perhaps the new Atari doesn't give interference anyway)

 

Did you try the new, good RF cable with the other Ataris as well? Same result?

 

I can never get it COMPLETELY away, so I must still not have the proper cable.. can you show a picture of that cable and it's plugs, perhaps some information of it so I could try to hunt a duplicate of it somehow ..

 

Thanks.

 

- Monk

[+Philsan]

Monk, with new 2600 jr. I mean a brand new, never used, 2600 jr. Obviously it was manufactured many years ago.

In the past days I have tested it with not new RF cables and I always had interference problems.

With the new RF cable I don't have interferences and menu screen is clear, without background interferences.

 

I have not tested the good cable with my 4-switch and Darth Vader consoles.

I have to open them.

At least in Darth Vader's console, the cable is connected to mainboard with the same 2600 jr. plug, so it's an easy task.

 

I have found many RF cables on ebay but I want to be sure to buy cables without interferences with Harmony cart.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I have found many RF cables on ebay but I want to be sure to buy cables without interferences with Harmony cart.

I can't give you a direct advice, but generally thicker cables (better shielding) and meant for transporting analog (not digital) TV signals (shielding specialized on transported frequencies) should work best. I think those are called "Aerial" cables.

 

You should be able a build a complete connection by yourself. Buy a good cable (not a cheap one like 2m for less than 5€) and the required plugs separately. Putting them together is no rocket science.

 

E.g. something like this:

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 390144440823

Or more expensive:

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 360200712066

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 270456548147

 

No guarantees!

[Monk]

Monk, with new 2600 jr. I mean a brand new, never used, 2600 jr. Obviously it was manufactured many years ago.

 

Well, obviously. I only meant that is this something you recently purchased, just in case that you might not have tested the other cables with it and perhaps the Atari itself would be the cause, but you already told me how it is, so never mind.

 

In the past days I have tested it with not new RF cables and I always had interference problems.

With the new RF cable I don't have interferences and menu screen is clear, without background interferences.

 

Could you take some photos of the cable, or do you know the brand or name or whatever - I mean, I am very interested in that cable for obvious reasons.. I would like to know all there is to know about it.

 

My Coaxial cable is very nice with the NTSC Atari, but even that has to be 'adjusted' to correct position.. still, that makes the interference appear small enough not to bother that much, so I can live with that if only I can get a NTSC television.. (which might be kind of difficult too, I mean - how can I test if a TV is 'true NTSC' or just 'Pal60 but says it's NTSC' in a store? By bringing the NTSC Atari with me and asking the sales people to let me plug it in? heh.. it's gonna be a problem)

 

I have not tested the good cable with my 4-switch and Darth Vader consoles.

I have to open them.

At least in Darth Vader's console, the cable is connected to mainboard with the same 2600 jr. plug, so it's an easy task.

 

I have found many RF cables on ebay but I want to be sure to buy cables without interferences with Harmony cart.

 

Oh, of course not - I thought for some reason that you also had an older Atari 2600jr somewhere, that you tested RF cables with.

 

Are you saying that if you open the Darth Vader model, you can just unplug the cable and change it??

 

Yeah, the best cable would be SHIELDED RCA-plug RF cable.. an 'ordinary' RF cable isn't good enough because of the plug. But I don't even know if such cables exist.. so I'll probably settle with the coaxial thing, just hoping to get the NTSC television next month.. gonna be a long wait, heh..

 

- Monk

[Monk]

You should be able a build a complete connection by yourself. Buy a good cable (not a cheap one like 2m for less than 5€) and the required plugs separately. Putting them together is no rocket science.

 

I have an idea; would it be perhaps a nice or neat idea for some handyman here (I could NEVER do something like that - never, ever, ever) to manufacture such cables and sell them here? Like as a special solution to the Harmony Cart interference - that same handyman could then test the cables before he sells them, and thus we would know for sure, that the cable is 100% interference free with Harmony Cart!

 

I mean, Atariage did have some kind of 'shop' or 'store', didn't it? I don't really know much about Atariage yet, as I am still such a newbie, but perhaps someone could think about it and then perhaps explain if it'd be possible or not. I know I would preorder or purchase such cable (provided that I could use paypal to pay) immediately..

 

Too bad the interference is so rare though - perhaps it wouldn't be a good business, because so many people here seem to either have some coaxial solution or a video mod I presume.. or perhaps the american TV connection system is so different that the interference never even becomes an issue, I don't know.

 

Oh well .. the coaxial is good enough for the NTSC Atari, so that's probably what I have to live with.

 

Thanks for all the help again!

 

- Monk

[+thegoldenband]

Question: other than the heavy shielding, what would the specs of the "ideal" RF cable look like? In particular, is there a specific impedance that the cable is supposed to have, and does that differ from the impedance of a high-quality shielded RCA audio cable? (Is it 75 ohms in both cases?)

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Question: other than the heavy shielding, what would the specs of the "ideal" RF cable look like? In particular, is there a specific impedance that the cable is supposed to have, and does that differ from the impedance of a high-quality shielded RCA audio cable? (Is it 75 ohms in both cases?)

I am not enough expert to know, but since the transported frequencies are very different (MHz vs. kHz) I suppose RCA audio cables are not an optimal solution.

[+Philsan]

Monk, the cable bundled with my 2600 jr. is like the thin one I attached in post #52.

This thin cable is similar to many other ones included with old computers and consoles.

 

I think Harmony cart needs a good RF cable.

My new cable works and perhaps new standard cables on ebay work too.

But I agree with Thomas that ideal cable is thicker and shielded.

Perhaps this one?

Ugly, VCS owners have to enlarge console's hole...

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 370258201636

[+thegoldenband]

Ugly, VCS owners have to enlarge console's hole...

Could one replace the VCS's built-in cable with a very short male-to-female cable, with the female connector protruding from the back of the case, and attach the shielded cable to that? Or is that likely to cause problems?

[+Philsan]

Today I have opened my Darth Vader to test it with the 2600 jr. good new RF cable.

No "Harmony cart interferences" (but 2600 jr. overall image quality was better).

I have plugged again the original Darth Vader RF cable and... surprise... no "Harmony cart interferences" and the same good image quality of 2600 jr.)!

 

Conclusions.

Those tiny standard RF cables are very fragile so it is important to use a good one and to test it well, also opening the console and plugging and unplugging it.

Perhaps the definitive solution is to use a big shielded RF cable like the one in post #161 but to be sure someone have to do a test.

 

@ thegoldenband

I have to correct what I have previously written; Darth Vader (and I think VCS) has a big hole on the back so it is unnecessary to enlarge console's hole to use a big shielded cable.

[Monk]

Monk, the cable bundled with my 2600 jr. is like the thin one I attached in post #52.

This thin cable is similar to many other ones included with old computers and consoles.

 

How does the cable differ from the other similar-looking cables? Or does it visually look identical, but just has some difference inside?

 

I hate problems like this.. with my luck with this kind of thing I am never gonna get the correct cable. Well, the coaxial cost me already 18 EUR so I am gonna use it, come hell or high water..

 

- Monk

[Monk]

Today I have opened my Darth Vader to test it with the 2600 jr. good new RF cable.

No "Harmony cart interferences" (but 2600 jr. overall image quality was better).

I have plugged again the original Darth Vader RF cable and... surprise... no "Harmony cart interferences" and the same good image quality of 2600 jr.)!

 

How do you explain that, exactly?

 

I mean, you removed the cable that caused interference, then you tested the other cable and plugged the old cable back - and the interferences were gone? Is your new RF cable some kind of magical HEALING cable? (-8

 

I am just wondering what is different now - did you do anything else different than change the cables? Obviously something removed the interference that the original cable caused (if the same cable isn't causing it anymore!)..

 

This is one diabolical mystery, heh.. but are you saying that opening the Atari and tinkering with it could help somehow?

 

- Monk

[+Philsan]

I mean, you removed the cable that caused interference, then you tested the other cable and plugged the old cable back - and the interferences were gone? Is your new RF cable some kind of magical HEALING cable? (-8

I am just wondering what is different now - did you do anything else different than change the cables? Obviously something removed the interference that the original cable caused (if the same cable isn't causing it anymore!)..

This is one diabolical mystery, heh.. but are you saying that opening the Atari and tinkering with it could help somehow?

Exactly, I have done nothing else.

The problem is in those delicate thin RF cables bundled with consoles/computers.

All these cables are similar. I think they are not very well shielded.

Opening VCSs and Darth Vaders could surely help because the internal motherboard plug could have problems or the cable do a particular bend before coming out from the console.

[Monk]

Exactly, I have done nothing else.

The problem is in those delicate thin RF cables bundled with consoles/computers.

All these cables are similar. I think they are not very well shielded.

Opening VCSs and Darth Vaders could surely help because the internal motherboard plug could have problems or the cable do a particular bend before coming out from the console.

 

Yes, the problem is PARTIALLY those RF cables.. I mean, heh.. I finally got ALL the interference away permanently, but it wasn't by changing any cables.

 

To really explain it, perhaps a photo would be best..

 

http://www.aijaa.com/v.php?i=5601873.jpg

 

This was the ONLY time I saw the interference vanish -completely-, except for those rare times when I used my hand with the other cable (it didn't work with the coaxial)..

 

(too bad this is gonna be the permanent solution, as it is a bit crude, but I couldn't figure out how to make this work with the cover attached - I tried many different solutions but none of it worked, it gets too fragmented because the cover creates a separation)

 

Please don't kill me.. .. but I was now immensely enjoying Atari gameplaying, now that the interference is gone AND the picture quality is just BEEAAUUTIFUL! Couldn't ask for anything more!

 

- Monk

Edited January 20, 2010 by Monk

[+Philsan]

Nice setup Monk!

 

To do other image's quality tests, I have bought this cable:

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 120514133045

[Longhorn Engineer]

shameless plug... Video mod?

 

 

Granted PAL is still in the works.

[Monk]

shameless plug... Video mod?

 

 

Granted PAL is still in the works.

 

Was this directed at me?

 

Heh, I wouldn't call it a video mod, I just put some aluminium foil paper around the Harmony Cart when it was attached into the Atari without the cover..

 

The bad side is I can't use the cover at all now, because I couldn't find a way to use the aluminium foil paper in such a manner that it would've removed the interference with the cover on. I can only do it without the cover.

 

Besides, I kind of accidentally mutilated the cover a bit, so that wouldn't probably even work anymore.. heh.. well, to me the visuals of the PICTURE on the screen is more important than the visuals of the ATARI UNIT on the table.. (-8

 

But finally there's 0% interference, phew. Took a long time but finally.

 

I guess we helped each other out here - Zargon (I hope I remembered the name correctly, sorry if I misspelled it!) first insisted about the RF cables 'entanglement' or 'loops' affecting it (so I tested it with my curious results with the hand), then I explained those results to Philsan, who proceeded to test a brand new RF cable - and then opening his Darth Vader case and explaining how it removed the interference when he just changed a cable back and forth - so I thought perhpas opening MY Atari, SOMETHING could be done..

 

And as I couldn't find anything else I could've done, as a last resort I thought to try that aluminium foil that I finally got, but I didn't expect it to totally remove the interference.. (I am not sure if it would've been possible to have done this internally into the Harmony Cart though, because it doesn't affect at all if the cover is on) .. but it did!

 

So I had to figure a way to get the START and SELECT-buttons working, and the only way to do that with Atari 2600jr was to either use the cover, or take the thin strip-type of a cable off the cover and just manually using it with my fingers from thereon..

 

It's not a pretty setup but it WORKS, and that's all I care about, hehe. At least now I know always what to do if the interference problem happens. And now we can inform others, if someone new also starts having this problem.

 

Thanks for EVERYONE for their kind attitude, their friendliness, their genuine helpfulness, their information, their wise-cracks, and their general comments about all this.

 

It has all been very helpful in one way or another, and at the very least you guys have kept me interested in trying to solve the problem and helped me have hope about this.

 

I am now only wondering if it would be possible to construct some kind of device that would destroy the interference in a way that the cover could still be used. Does anyone have any ideas about this?

 

Thank you, everyone, again!

 

Sincerely,

 

- Monk

An Enthusiastic Harmony Cart User

[+Philsan]

Monk, before doing other things, I think you should test your console with a good shielded cable like the one I have just bought:

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 120514133045

[cd-w]

shameless plug... Video mod?

Granted PAL is still in the works.

Was this directed at me?

Heh, I wouldn't call it a video mod, I just put some aluminium foil paper around the Harmony Cart when it was attached into the Atari without the cover..

 

The Longhorn Engineer makes great video mods for the Atari 2600. Using one of these would probably solve your interference problems, and would give you a much clearer picture in any case. Using a properly shielded cable would probably also remove the need for the tinfoil.

 

Chris

[Monk]

Monk, before doing other things, I think you should test your console with a good shielded cable like the one I have just bought:

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 120514133045

 

Why? Everything works now, so I don't have a reason to do any more tests.

 

(It can't be the cable only, because I used the same coaxial and with the aluminium foil wrap there's no more interference - I didn't change the cable, and yet there's no interference anymore)

 

Thanks anyways for the tip .. the coaxial cable was 18 EUR, so I am not gonna purchase any more cables unless -absolutely-required- by something..

 

- Monk

[Monk]

The Longhorn Engineer makes great video mods for the Atari 2600. Using one of these would probably solve your interference problems, and would give you a much clearer picture in any case. Using a properly shielded cable would probably also remove the need for the tinfoil.

 

Yes, I know he does. I checked his site.. quite EXPENSIVE, compared to my solution..(as I can't solder, I'd have to send the Atari all the way to USA etc..) (-8

 

Besides, the picture is just perfect right now - there are no interference or picture quality problems now.

 

I don't think a good cable would remove the need for the tinfoil, it's just not logical. I mean, the interference seems to be happening in the core of the Atari (there the tinfoil is located), not in the cable (I have tried so many cables, shielded and not-so-shielded, and only a couple of times I got the interference to 'almost' nil, by using my hand with the cable)..

 

This was a truly weird and mysterious problem that defied all explanations, but now it's all over, problem is solved, and everything is just perfect (just came back from playing many great games utilizing the Harmony Cart, always had perfect picture quality)!

 

So thanks a lot anyway!

 

By the way, you are one of those Harmony Cart Creator Masters, aren't you?

 

*bows*

 

Thank you for this great portal to awesomeness!

 

Sincerely,

 

- Monk

A joyful Harmony Cart utilizer

[Monk]

The Longhorn Engineer makes Videomods

 

I am somehow against videomods anyway.. I guess I feel it's a bit 'too much', and besides, I love the RF signal and it's picture. 'too' clear picture would just be no fun!

 

I have a monitor for the C64, but I always rather use the TV anyway - the monitor picture is too 'clear', and that spoils the fun of it all. I like the pixels interacting with the oldskool television - with too much clarity this won't happen anymore.

 

As long as it's not an EXTRA interference, everything is ok.

 

The only thing about the Atari signal is that it's so weak that I can't really keep any other computers turned on at the same time if I want to see what I am playing.. it takes a lot of interference from the other systems, even a speaker/amplifier thing I have connected to the television.

 

The C64 is not as sensitive, and the C64's RF signal is VERY powerful - I didn't even have the cable connected, and the television played the music so clearly it was scary, and showed an almost clear picture.. the C16 and Atari 2600 have much weaker signals.

 

But I digress, my original point was that videomodding is a bit too much modern stuff mixed in with the original, authentic thing.. if I want clear pixels, I might as well use an emulator and a VGA monitor or whatever.

 

- Monk