The official "ColecoVision 2" thread

[tomjscott]

One more try.. have you been to this site? I know its Adam centric but it seems to have some good material.

http://www.theadamre.../index.htm#prog

 

Hmmm. The EOS Programming docs seem to have some promising material in there. I'll have to dig deeper and see if it all makes sense. Thanks.

[JamesD]

One more try.. have you been to this site? I know its Adam centric but it seems to have some good material.

http://www.theadamre.../index.htm#prog

I'm not sure if that's the site I downloaded everything from but it looks like some of the same docs anyway.

There were some holes in the Adam technical info that I had to fill in by disassembling the ROM.

I didn't spend as much time on the Colecovision related docs other than the stuff for creating a cart image.

[tomjscott]

I'm not sure if that's the site I downloaded everything from but it looks like some of the same docs anyway.

There were some holes in the Adam technical info that I had to fill in by disassembling the ROM.

I didn't spend as much time on the Colecovision related docs other than the stuff for creating a cart image.

 

I haven't spent much time on the EOS Programming information yet, but, while it does seem to have some good core info in there, it's still a pittance compared to what I really crave. Something like what I had for the Commodore 64 when I was programming for that back in the day would be more what I would want. The Commodore 64 Programmer's Reference Guide is what I'm referring to. Or what is available for the Jaguar in the Jaguar Dev Kit. Now that's some serious documentation with examples and sample code.

 

At the moment, I've been turning my attention to Jaguar programming, but I may come back to the CV if I can make some sense of this new information and it gives me what I was looking for. It's really a shame that the true gurus of the CV like Eduardo and Luc don't provide good docs and some development tools for making games. They obviously have the best grasp on this console.

Edited March 20, 2013 by tomjscott

[Pixelboy]

At the moment, I've been turning my attention to Jaguar programming, but I may come back to the CV if I can make some sense of this new information and it gives me what I was looking for. It's really a shame that the true gurus of the CV like Eduardo and Luc don't provide good docs and some development tools for making games. They obviously have the best grasp on this console.

 

I hate to break this to you, but I'm no CV programming guru by any stretch of the imagination. The only software I've ever written for the CV was a game of Sudoku in C language with no sound. I do know some stuff about graphics on the CV, and I understand many principles about how the machine works, but it's mostly theoretical knowledge at this point. I'll have to dig much deeper into the technical side of things while I develop BasicVision in the coming years.

[Pixelboy]

I haven't spent much time on the EOS Programming information yet, but, while it does seem to have some good core info in there, it's still a pittance compared to what I really crave. Something like what I had for the Commodore 64 when I was programming for that back in the day would be more what I would want. The Commodore 64 Programmer's Reference Guide is what I'm referring to. Or what is available for the Jaguar in the Jaguar Dev Kit. Now that's some serious documentation with examples and sample code.

 

You're never going to find docs like that for the ColecoVision. Heck, you'll probably have a hard time finding such docs for the Adam. The C64 is a home computer, and it was extremely popular back in the day, so it would make sense that some people would feed its popularity by writing good documentation for the masses of C64 owners. The CV was strictly a gaming console, and only companies specialized in cartridge game development (Activision, Imagic, etc.) had the technical docs which were probably very dry and could only be understood by professional programmers. Some could also hack the machine to death to create their own internal tech docs.

 

Seriously, why would Coleco release a tech book on ColecoVision programming?

[+Gemintronic]

Where is this much fabled Coleco Pascal? Why hasn't it been leaked?

http://www.labinf.po...1786/coleco.htm

 

My thinking is that if anything would be worth disassembling for technical information it'd be that.

[tomjscott]

You're never going to find docs like that for the ColecoVision. Heck, you'll probably have a hard time finding such docs for the Adam. The C64 is a home computer, and it was extremely popular back in the day, so it would make sense that some people would feed its popularity by writing good documentation for the masses of C64 owners. The CV was strictly a gaming console, and only companies specialized in cartridge game development (Activision, Imagic, etc.) had the technical docs which were probably very dry and could only be understood by professional programmers. Some could also hack the machine to death to create their own internal tech docs.

 

Seriously, why would Coleco release a tech book on ColecoVision programming?

I was expecting that the information would somehow be available in the homebrew community, not from Coleco. But you may be wrong about never seeing such documentation. If I can ever get to the level of understanding I wish to attain on the CV then I would produce such documentation.

[JamesD]

...

The CV was strictly a gaming console, and only companies specialized in cartridge game development (Activision, Imagic, etc.) had the technical docs which were probably very dry and could only be understood by professional programmers. Some could also hack the machine to death to create their own internal tech docs.

...

The Adam docs I read are dry and some of the info was from a high level theory standpoint. I think they were made from the design docs and nobody went back and filled in details.

A far cry from the technical stuff I've read for other machines. But I will say it was adequate to figure things out.

[NIAD]

Hmmm. The EOS Programming docs seem to have some promising material in there. I'll have to dig deeper and see if it all makes sense. Thanks.

"The ADAM Resource" website is a great source for all things CV & ADAM and Mark did a great job resurrecting that long neglected website after we (Mark, Joe B. and myself) decided to organize and make available all the digital files in our collections that we had amassed over the years concerning these system. The large archive that I posted on a file sharer has been removed seeing as I have completely revamped/reorganized everything concerning the ColecoVision and am working on the ADAM stuff now. Hopefully in the coming months I will have everything ready to my liking and make this huge updated archive available... just never enough time in the day. Thankfully a lot of it is still available on Mark's and Joe's websites... which links are provided in the footer of my posts.

 

There was a series of programming manuals released by Mel Ostler of Roadrunner Publications in the late 80's that you would probably find very interesting, but we need to find someone that still has the original manuals and would either scan them or send them to me so I can scan them in order to be shared with everyone. Well, not only these sizeable manuals, but a lot of other stuff that needs to be preserved once and for all.

 

I blame myself for selling my original collection as I had it all and then some, CV & ADAM related items, and all this would have been preserved in digital form already.

Edited March 21, 2013 by NIAD

[+opcode]

It's really a shame that the true gurus of the CV like Eduardo and Luc don't provide good docs and some development tools for making games. They obviously have the best grasp on this console.

 

My tools: dasm, WordPad, PaintShopPro 4.12. Yes, I like to brush bits.

My docs: MSX Data Pack (in Japanese), Zilog Z80 User Manual, TMS9918 and SN76489 data sheets.

[Edit]: Almost forgot, "Aprofundando-se no MSX" (in Portuguese). That is how I learned all the ins and outs of the TMS9918 back in the 80s.

Edited March 21, 2013 by opcode

[tomjscott]

My tools: dasm, WordPad, PaintShopPro 4.12.

My docs: MSX Data Pack (in Japanese), Zilog Z80 User Manual, TMS9918 and SN76489 data sheets.

[Edit]: Almost forgot, "Aprofundando-se no MSX" (in Portuguese). That is how I learned all the ins and outs of the TMS9918 back in the 80s.

I have the Zilog Z80 User Manual, but I had no idea that there were comprehensive datasheets for the video and sound chips. Thanks for the tip. Finally, some real documentation. I suppose I should have thought about that myself, but didn't.

[HDTV1080P]

Seriously, it would play both CV, SGM and exclusive CV2 games. But we need to be realistic and consider that there is so much that a single or small group of developers/publisher can do. So that is why I thought the idea of supplying it with some programming language would be interesting, as it would open the doors for more games, even if simpler games.

 

So the ColecoVision II is going to be a more powerful videogame system when compared to the dedicated Adam computer with the OpCode Supergame module plugged in? I did not realize that there was going to be exclusive games for the ColecoVision II that only play on the ColecoVision II. If the exclusive ColecoVision II games are really good that will increase the demand for people to own a ColecoVision II.

 

There will be a little bit of confusion for those consumers that do not own a ColecoVision II. I am sure Opcode and possible other people making games will clearly label the videogames.

 

Possible label examples for the 3 different videogame systems:

1. “Adam, ColecoVision 1, and ColecoVision 2 compatible videogame”.
    
   
2. “This game requires the Opcode Supergame module or ColecoVision II videogame system”.
    
   
3. “This game requires the ColecoVision II videogame system.”
   

Edited March 21, 2013 by HDTV1080P

[+opcode]

At this point what I am saying is, the CV2 will be slightly more capable that the CV+SGM. The V9958 alone is representative of that.

If there will be exclusive CV2 games released, that is another story. My main goal with the hardware is to produce a machine that is 99% compatible with all the CV and SGM software.

One thing that I had in mind, and that was extensively discussed, is that one developer could create a CV game that use some of the CV2 functions as an option, in case a CV2 is used to run the game. For example, as custom color palette. Or smooth hardware scroll.

Since we are few, we would need to spread ourselves too thin trying to support "3 different platforms", so I see the added features on the CV2 more as a bonus that could be used optionally than a new platform. Nanochess is doing something similar with the SGM, he is creating games that run on the plain vanilla CV but has improved music if used with the SGM.

Again, if we get exclusive CV2 games, great. I just don't want to work with that goal in mind at this point.

[Nateo]

Thanks for clarifying that, opcode... I was a little concerned that I'd be buying the SGM now just to have it be obsolete in two years.

 

And I just realized how weird it is that I said that about what is more or less 30-year old hardware.

[jblenkle]

Improvements aside, one of the biggest aspects of the CV2 will be that it replaces the 30-year-old-hardware-doesn't-last-forever ColecoVision with brand new state of the art hardware that hopefully will last another 30 years.

[ColecoDan]

Improvements aside, one of the biggest aspects of the CV2 will be that it replaces the 30-year-old-hardware-doesn't-last-forever ColecoVision with brand new state of the art hardware that hopefully will last another 30 years.

 

Correct, I think the real thing would be sure everyone wants the new product but the real choice will come when your colecovision breaks, are you going to bother to spend a lot of money fixing it or getting a new one and fixing it if yours is broken beyond repair, or are you going to just buy the new CVII so that everything is modern and should not be breaking down on you.

 

Unfortunately if this product comes out it could mean the end of fixing colecovisions and they will slowly grow extinct.

[jblenkle]

Unfortunately if this product comes out it could mean the end of fixing colecovisions and they will slowly grow extinct.

 

Not necessarily...I won't give up my original CV just because I get a CV2. I'm sure most collectors of the machine will feel the same way. It will be nice, however, not to have to depend on 30-year-old hardware which may eventually become unrepairable. Not everyone may opt to buy a CV2, as well, although like the SGM, I'm sure they will sell quickly.

[+opcode]

Improvements aside, one of the biggest aspects of the CV2 will be that it replaces the 30-year-old-hardware-doesn't-last-forever ColecoVision with brand new state of the art hardware that hopefully will last another 30 years.

 

That is more the idea. And the other thing is that, like any homebrew projects, there is always a chance it will never materialize.

[+opcode]

My tools: dasm, WordPad, PaintShopPro 4.12. Yes, I like to brush bits.

My docs: MSX Data Pack (in Japanese), Zilog Z80 User Manual, TMS9918 and SN76489 data sheets.

[Edit]: Almost forgot, "Aprofundando-se no MSX" (in Portuguese). That is how I learned all the ins and outs of the TMS9918 back in the 80s.

 

My mistake, I use tasm, not dasm, which is a disassembler, and not a very good one btw.

[Tighe]

My mistake, I use tasm, not dasm, which is a disassembler, and not a very good one btw.

 

You are using Borland's Turbo Assembler for z80 opcode?? I am confused...

[+opcode]

You are using Borland's Turbo Assembler for z80 opcode?? I am confused...

 

Telemark Assembler. Very good, very popular...

[Tighe]

Telemark Assembler. Very good, very popular...

 

Thanks, do you have a disassembler of choice that you like? Particularly what did you use to disassemble the arcade Donkey Kong and Pac-Man ROMs?

[HDTV1080P]

So the goal is to make the ColecoVision II 99% compatible with existing ColecoVision games and Opcode Supergame module games. However, since the ColecoVision II BIOS uses flash memory it should be possible to make it close to 99.9% or 100% compatible with old games with a firmware update. The consumer with their PC or MAC would be able to download the latest BIOS update to a SD card from the Opcode website. Then when the SD card is placed in the ColecoVision II a new improved BIOS could be installed.

 

It should be mentioned that the Coleco Adam standalone was not even 100% compatible with all the ColecoVision games and played like 99% or 99.9% of them. There were a few Atari games like Defender on cartridge that worked perfectly fine with the 1982 ColecoVision, however when the same Defender cartridge was played on a standalone 1983 Adam computer in the cartridge slot the game would not allow the spaceship to go up with the Coleco controller. There was a few other games that also did not work on the Adam. A third party programmer many years later modified the few games like Defender and others so that they work on the standalone Adam also. So the only reason why the standalone Adam computer can now play 100% of the Colecovision games is because the few incompatible game cartridge rom images had to be modified to work on the new Coleco system many years ago.

 

My point is even the Coleco Adam had some incompatibility issues with a few ColecoVision cartridges, so most likely at the beginning the ColecoVision II will have a few game cartridges that will not run without a new firmware update to the BIOS to fix the issue.

Edited March 21, 2013 by HDTV1080P

[Bartsfam]

You know, that opens a lot of potential indeed. However I am always torn about the two sides of the matter. Adding something like a keyboard input and BASIC could have an appeal beyond the CV fan base circle, and while I think it is always nice to have something that brings new blood, on the other hand I am happy to focus on our core audience instead of scattering on multiple audiences.

 

And that is the same thing with FPGA. I have considered FPGAs innumerable times, but in the end I just cannot see the difference between a FPGA device and connecting your laptop to the TV and using an emulator. It doesn't bring the same sense of "reality" to me. It also detracts of the what-if paradigm, as you are no longer bound to the technological limitations of the 80s.

 

Believe me. I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire, but would two CV2's be possible? One would be the basic user model, and the other would have the keyboard attachment and BASIC.

One would be the CV2, and the other could be something like the CV 2-PRO, with some extra bells and whistles that some people want.

Both would be pre-paid, and if the interest is there for the PRO version, then that version could be made also.

 

Just a thought....

[HDTV1080P]

Believe me. I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire, but would two CV2's be possible? One would be the basic user model, and the other would have the keyboard attachment and BASIC.

One would be the CV2, and the other could be something like the CV 2-PRO, with some extra bells and whistles that some people want.

Both would be pre-paid, and if the interest is there for the PRO version, then that version could be made also.

 

Just a thought....

 

Then videogame developers would have 4 different videogame systems to program for, which would be too many (original ColecoVision, Opcode Supergame module, standard ColecoVision II, and ColecoVision II Pro).

 

If the only difference between a ColecoVision II Pro and the standard ColecoVision II was that the Pro version offered a SD card interface and PS/2 interface for $50 more, than I would recommend building only the pro version of the ColecoVision II.

 

Lets say the SD card slot and PS/2 interface adds $50 total to the project. Then videogame developers with a $5 keyboard could make game show games like Wheel of Fortune, etc. The keyboard attached to the ColecoVision II opens up the possiblity of all kinds of new videogames that could be developed that only a keyboard interface can provide. The basic cartridge and a $5 keyboard would be purchased separately to keep cost down. Of course there could be a package deal that bundled the ColecoVision II with a a basic cartridge and a keyboard sometime in the future.

 

Those are my ideals. If it was called a ColecoVision III and sold for $300-$500 then it could have HDMI and a built in Adam computer.

Edited March 21, 2013 by HDTV1080P