SSH on APE , or any one got a shell account for my atari

[Kernal]

HI is there a way to do SSH on the real atari hardware thru APE.

My old shell provider who provided telnet access to me went out of buisness

 

I have another shell but it is SSH only.. is there any SSH clients or is there a way i can get APE to do SSH.

 

If not does any one have a free telnet shell account i can use my atari from?

also i need it to compile the sources for the journey to the planet remake were doing.

 

yes i am also making BSD/Unix/Linux ports as well. =) *hopefully*

[UNIXcoffee928]

HI is there a way to do SSH on the real atari hardware thru APE.

My old shell provider who provided telnet access to me went out of buisness

 

I have another shell but it is SSH only.. is there any SSH clients or is there a way i can get APE to do SSH.

 

If not does any one have a free telnet shell account i can use my atari from?

also i need it to compile the sources for the journey to the planet remake were doing.

 

yes i am also making BSD/Unix/Linux ports as well. =) *hopefully*

In theory, this should work: Run an Atari Emulator running telnet & an Amiga emulator running OpenSSH.

 

Connect to the Amiga emulator via telnet, using a host-system virtual serial-port driver to connect the two emulators via serial, then connect to the outside world via the Amiga emulator, using OpenSSH & your physical host systems's networking gear.

 

There's ten other ways to do it, but this one is likely to give you good security (except if your host-system itself becomes compromised... but then you've got a MUCH bigger problem than someone snooping on your Atari emulator's communications... ha...).

 

 

ON WRITING ONE: 

 

Check the Wikipedia page for ssh. All of the RFCs needed to write an ssh clleint are linked there. OpenSSH source code for the Amiga would probably be the smallest source distribution to hack. First, though, look around for source code for ssh on QNX, or other embedded system OSs, as these would be the smallest available. Also look to see if the C64 people, or other retrosystems people have done anything ssh-wise... THAT would be the easiest to port.

 

Now that the Manual for Action! is readily available, a possible project would be to translate the c code to Action! Your biggest stumbling blocks will be: any source code that you find will be trying to make system calls to the OS,  to achieve the networking voodoo. You would have to write something to emulate that, and it will be "Advanced Programmer" kinda tricky. Secondly, the other thing is, the key generation requires fast calculations that the Atari shouldn't be able to do in a timely manner... unless you are a REALLY good programmer. Thirdly, Action only will compile what it can fit in memory, so you will be swapping banks. Fourthly falls into the "You'll Find Out" Category... LOL... & you will need to burn that bridge after you've crossed it.

 

= )

 

 

Actually, to save yourself the hair-pulling, use a c cross compiler on your host system. You will still need to re-invent several wheels, but IF you did.... >gasp< WELL... then you would kinda have "Epic-Hero-Level" status... meaning, you would be one Badasssed Programmer who gave the Atari community a very hot tool! 

 

Naturally, if you are going to build these OS tools, you'll want to make them work with SpartaDOS, on the Atari side.

 

If you want to work on it, do it here, and I'll be happy to offer any low-level UNIX OS advice needed, I have all of the books for such a project. Good luck, if you really want to do this... it's a very daunting task! 

[charliecron]

I don't know much about APE, but I imagine what you did was boot up a communications program on a real Atari and telnet to your shell provider?

 

If thats the case then maybe something like Microsoft Windows Services for UNIX would work, as it provides a telnet server for Windows. Just telnet to your Windows machine that is running APE and ssh to your shell provider from there? I assume your running Windows since your running APE.

[doctor_x]

this is the best idea - though you could also grab a Linux livecd and run it on your PC as well..

 

I don't know much about APE, but I imagine what you did was boot up a communications program on a real Atari and telnet to your shell provider?

 

If thats the case then maybe something like Microsoft Windows Services for UNIX would work, as it provides a telnet server for Windows. Just telnet to your Windows machine that is running APE and ssh to your shell provider from there? I assume your running Windows since your running APE.

[Kernal]

I don't know much about APE, but I imagine what you did was boot up a communications program on a real Atari and telnet to your shell provider?

 

If thats the case then maybe something like Microsoft Windows Services for UNIX would work, as it provides a telnet server for Windows. Just telnet to your Windows machine that is running APE and ssh to your shell provider from there? I assume your running Windows since your running APE.

 

Thank you

this is what i needed...

I didnt know windows services had ssh open thru the telnet server.. excellent idea.. i originally just telnetted straight to my shell from the atari.. via ape..

 

I wonder though if steve might wanna throw in SSH on the next version of ape. as for a real client on the real atari hardware, ill see what i can whip up in ASM or TurboBasic.

[Kernal]

so yeahwindows 7 edoesnt like services for windows.

[Kernal]

imeanforunix.

[Kernal]

Ok time to start thinking on how to build an SSH client for the atari that would work thru the APE interface.

 

this is gonna be fun.

[Kernal]

Ok so i think im going to search the polish pages just to make sure they havent already done this..

im suprised someone didnt think ofthis before.. i guess i can put journey to the planets on theback burner for awhile to develop this.

[charliecron]

so yeahwindows 7 edoesnt like services for windows.

 

Looks like Windows 7 has a telnet service built in.

[sloopy]

if the ssh server you connecting to uses anything but the bare minimum of encryption the A8 may not be able to handle the encryption/decryption load... having a local machine running linux would work also, telnet into it, and then ssh out... my router runs linux so this wouldnt be a problem here...

 

sloopy.

[UNIXcoffee928]

First of alll... the WHOLE FREAKIN' REASON of running ssh IS because telnet is soooooo UNBELIEVABLY UNSECURE.

 

Why on earth would you want to run telnet on Windoze? ...OR Any Platform? The service should be turned off, and remain off, after your OS install. This isn't 1994... sheesh. 

 

It is an EXTREME vulnerability to your host system's security to run telnet. At all. Don't do it.

 

As I said, use a software-driven "virtual serial cable" as a implementation of a null modem, between the Atari emulator, and another emulator, the Amiga one described, a linux virtual machine, or whatever will be running your ssh.

 

This way you don't have to run the telnet service, SPECIFICALLY to avoid opening your system up to all of the vulnerabilities that telnet is known for.

 

I was specifically telling you how to get an Atari emulator to connect in a secure fashion. You undermine your entire system's security by running telnet... it is a VERY bad idea to run telnet. 

 

You could also use a real Atari & a real, physical serial null modem cable, attached to an Atari 850, and to an RS-232C serial interface on the PC or workstation, with the method that I've described, if you want the Atari experience...

 

You can run ssh directly on linux or on Windoesnot... just do that, if you just want to connect, and don't even bother to mess around with the Atari to do this task.

 

Furthermore, you really need to read the RFCs because it is very apparent that you don't know wtf you're talking about, or getting into. LOL, but seriously. 

 

Normally this would be no big deal (for someone to not know wtf they were doing... lol), but it is a VERY big deal if you believe that you will be the programmer that will bring ssh /or any networking software/ to the Atari. Because you don't know enough about host & network based security to even begin. It is statistically probable that any software that you would write right now would put the entire Atari Emulation community at SERIOUS risk.

 

...but everyone's got to start somewhere. Read the RFCs, read some books on TCP/IP networking, UNIX security, etc. WHILE planning your program, THEN begin coding sometime around at least a year from now, once you've got the basics down.

 

I don't want you to presume that I'm being a nasty, either. I'm just being realistic & trying to help.

 

Then again, I worked for a long time in computer security & system administration, so for all you know I could be the BOFH. Yeah, you're right, I am the BOFH...

 

...but I'm in recovery. lol.

 

...now back to my "Johnny the Homicidal Maniac" comics.

 

 

In the meantime, install ssh on your main computer & call it a day, to just connect.

[Kernal]

I spent many work breaks reading and loving BOFH =)

 

I think the 850 is a great idea.. Can i use the emulated 850 that is available or should i go on ebay and find a real 850 with the P: R: connect.

 

No i Know i agree with you about telnet

 

I worked level 2 tech support for dell for 2 years. and ive been a sys admin for 3 ISP's from the mid 90's to about 2005.

 

I was just asking.. because APE had telnet built in if there was also a way to build in SSH to APE. steve would have to answer that.

 

Ive been using Atari 8-bits since i was 7 years old in 1985. I have an atari 130xe, 1200xl, 800xl and my pride and joy ATARI ST.

 

thats my other question ill have to look around for.. if there is an SSH for ST i can use the MIDI network i have...

but i havent found it yet.

 

However i do have a firm handle on ASM/Action! and if i had your help with the way SSH authenticates (and yes i agree the atari is wayyy to slow.. so i will have to have the authentication code structure on the winblows side. yes i know i could use my unix box.... i have a knoppix box and a slackware box.

(been using slackware since 1.2.13 in 1993.)

 

I just want a nice winblows alternative to the unix boxes because not everyone runs unix.

I have successfully ran BitchX and IRSSI under ICE-T.. and i have used BitchX since 1995.. i prefer it for my IRC client...

 

it was a pain to get the emulation right on ICE-T though.. =)

[Kernal]

I wish it was still 94. we'd still have nirvana, and the dead. and elliot smith

 

and atari would still be a functioning (somewhat) company.

[charliecron]

Oh dire warnings about telnet, lol.

 

Obviously, don't open the service to the public internet. Fine to use on your local network though.

 

Atari --> local network telnet (no problem here) --> Windows --> ssh --> internet.

 

And yes, 850 --> null modem --> serial port on linux box is what most folks do.

 

Charlie

Edited January 8, 2010 by charliecron

[Shawn Jefferson]

First of alll... the WHOLE FREAKIN' REASON of running ssh IS because telnet is soooooo UNBELIEVABLY UNSECURE.

 

Why on earth would you want to run telnet on Windoze? ...OR Any Platform? The service should be turned off, and remain off, after your OS install. This isn't 1994... sheesh. 

 

It is an EXTREME vulnerability to your host system's security to run telnet. At all. Don't do it.

 

As I said, use a software-driven "virtual serial cable" as a implementation of a null modem, between the Atari emulator, and another emulator, the Amiga one described, a linux virtual machine, or whatever will be running your ssh.

 

This way you don't have to run the telnet service, SPECIFICALLY to avoid opening your system up to all of the vulnerabilities that telnet is known for.

 

Telnet is considered insecure since it sends everything in clear text (like the FTP protocol). It's all about risk/cost though. Implementing an SSH client/server for use on the Atari is going to be high cost.

 

You can limit the risk:

 

- don't open telnet to the Internet-although this is no worse that opening SSH to the internet.. and in fact, if you do open SSH to the internet (port 22) you will likely start seeing brute force attacks within a week-same for FTP. Opening any port to the Internet is potentially bad.

 

- don't logon to anything via telnet with a high-privledge account, especially over networks where you don't know every hop your traffic is passing through (local home network where you "know" everything: probably fine.) If one of your machines is breached you've got a bigger problem that using a clear-text protocol.

 

Of course, all that said, I would always recommend switching from Telnet to SSH, and if that isn't possible, implement IPSec. That's professionally of course, for hobby stuff, I'm not so picky.

[UNIXcoffee928]

People are INSECURE. Computers & Networks are UNSECURE.

 

Now, you guys are just seeing the tip of the iceberg... Type the following into your favorite search engine:

 

telnet cert

 

Now open another tab and do the same with:

 

telnet service windows cert

 

'nuff said. telnet should not be used on any system connected to the Internet... for hundreds of reasons... as you've seen from the above searches, so I won't bother to begin a list.

 

I'll also point out that most people do not implement ACLs, of any sort, and that host-based security, particularly on Windows, is abysmal. Many people think that a firewall is the end-all-be-all. It's not. After your network security has been compromised on a single system on your LAN, all of your systems on your LAN are then at risk, particularly if you are running telnet, and generally, because users don't pay much attention to rules for creating more-secure passwords. They also typically have open shares set to other systems on their LAN, and are good at all of the other "Stupid User Tricks"...

 

Then again, most people should not be using computing machinery at all, anyway. LOL.

[Shawn Jefferson]

People are INSECURE. Computers & Networks are UNSECURE.

 

Thanks for picking up on my grammar mistake and correcting it.

 

Now, you guys are just seeing the tip of the iceberg... Type the following into your favorite search engine:

 

telnet cert

 

Now open another tab and do the same with:

 

telnet service windows cert

 

There are many services and applications that have had vulnerabilities over the years, including telnet. SSH is not immune to them either. You should be patching your systems as quickly as possible when patches are released.

 

I'll also point out that most people do not implement ACLs, of any sort, and that host-based security, particularly on Windows, is abysmal.

 

Actually that's a bit of a misconception, at least with the more recent versions of Windows, that include ASLR, DEP, Heap randomization, Windows Update, etc... in fact, operating system vulnerabilities are getting very expensive to develop exactly for these reasons.

 

Many people think that a firewall is the end-all-be-all. It's not. After your network security has been compromised on a single system on your LAN, all of your systems on your LAN are then at risk, particularly if you are running telnet, and generally, because users don't pay much attention to rules for creating more-secure passwords. They also typically have open shares set to other systems on their LAN, and are good at all of the other "Stupid User Tricks"...

 

Yes, I agree with you mainly, I just think you were being somewhat alarmist (and typically I'm very paranoid about my computing habits.) Yes, one compromised machine can be a gateway to other machines, and if you have a compromised machine (through whatever mechanism that was accomplished), then you have larger problems than an un-secure protocol (IMO), although that certainly helps the bad guys. The ARP spoofing tools that are readily available are pretty amazing, and debatably one of the best(Cain) is a Windows tool. Mostly the bad guys make a reverse connection out of your network once your machine is compromised, so a firewall isn't going to help too much in that case(unless you blocked surfing the web in your network), some malware is even proxy-aware.

 

Maybe I am not thinking of the typical user, and only thinking of myself... I'm quite comfortable using a clear-text protocol like telnet or FTP, since I know exactly what is happening, and what can go wrong. I wouldn't bat an eye to use it on my personal home network, because I know what is on that network, and how to detect when something is not normal. I personally don't use the same passwords for banking that I do for logging onto Atari Age, or websites like it. If my AA credentials are compromised, not a huge deal. I don't maintain any open ports on my home computers for remotely mangining them or whatever (well, my Honeypots are sometimes on and open. ), and so maybe I don't worry as much as someone who leaves RDP open to get to their computer from work or leaves SSH open to the Internet so they can manage their system remotely (hope you are watching your logs or have fail2ban or something like it running; mass SSH brute forcing by botnets is being seen on the Internet.)

Edited January 11, 2010 by Shawn Jefferson

[Kernal]

Does any one have a shell account i could use though in the meantime to compile these J2p sources?

[Urchlay]

Does any one have a shell account i could use though in the meantime to compile these J2p sources?

 

Get an extra PC, install Linux or FreeBSD...

 

If you can't get an extra PC, and you're on Windows, get something like VirtualBox or QEMU, install Linux/BSD in a virtual machine. I believe you can even skip the installation process, and download a ready-to-use disk image of an installed Linux system for QEMU. There's also Parallels for the Mac, but if you're on a modern Mac, you should already have a "shell account" including a usable compiler.

 

If you really only care about being able to run a compiler, you might try Cygwin or MSYS (gives you a UNIX-like environment on Windows, including gcc, GNU make, all the goodies).

 

You might try a provider like these guys: http://shellium.org/ ...I've never used their service, but their home page says "Free shells to all", maybe they really mean it.

 

With all these options available to you, a lot of us who might be able to provide you a shell account, won't (because we don't know you, and don't want to go giving random people access to our machines, and because you're perfectly able to compile your code on your own machine if you do a little research).

[UNIXcoffee928]

If you want to do an ssh implementation, use the above mentioned OpenSSH with this well-defined open-source TCP/IP stack: uIP. That will give you everything you need to put something together.

[Kernal]

ok the openSSH is viable..

 

 

as for a shell i have gone to all these free shell places and almost all of them are all SSH now..

the reason why i was asking specifially for telnet is because of the APE software from atarimax.

thats all it runs.. now im gonna talk to steve to see if he can add SSH support into the ape side of the software...

 

also yes i am for a temporary measure telnetting to my unix box and doing SSH thru there to bshellz.org.. but i would like a direct connection again like i once had. (i got electricity bills to [email protected]@@+!!)

[Kernal]

i have a knoppix 6 box..