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Doom licensing thread


Hyper_Eye

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Never assume. :)

 

Some of the textures and the new enemy you see are from freedoom, but we are also replacing things as we go. The video used some freedom stuff mainly so we could put something up Jaguar wise, and show the tools I have written allow WAD manipulation.

 

Also as for the freedoom license. All the assets they have on their site are free for use in free software AND commercial software. You have to credit them and include their license agreement in your documentation. (see their site if you wish to learn more)

 

It remains to be seen if we will use anything from freedoom though. vi has been cranking out his own assets, and they look great.

 

I am assuming since this wad is based on Freedoom (or at least uses many assets from Freedoom) that when this is all done the wad will be freely available to the Jag community to use for further development?

Edited by belboz
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Never assume. :)

 

Some of the textures and the new enemy you see are from freedoom, but we are also replacing things as we go. The video used some freedom stuff mainly so we could put something up Jaguar wise, and show the tools I have written allow WAD manipulation.

 

Also as for the freedoom license. All the assets they have on their site are free for use in free software AND commercial software. You have to credit them and include their license agreement in your documentation. (see their site if you wish to learn more)

 

It remains to be seen if we will use anything from freedoom though. vi has been cranking out his own assets, and they look great.

 

I am assuming since this wad is based on Freedoom (or at least uses many assets from Freedoom) that when this is all done the wad will be freely available to the Jag community to use for further development?

 

I did look through the Feedoom license before you even responded. I thought it used a GPL license but it uses a BSD license and you are correct that the assets are free to use in a commercial product.

 

I would like to know how a commercial product could even be in consideration when reading through the Jagdoom source license. It is available on Atariage here:

 

http://www.atariage.com/Jaguar/archives/DoomSource/license.txt

 

The two most interesting sections are 2 and 3:

 

2. Permitted Uses. For educational purposes only, you, the

end-user, may use portions of the Source Code, such as particular

routines, to develop your own software, but may not duplicate the

Source Code, except as noted in paragraph 4. The limited right

referenced in the preceding sentence is hereinafter referred to as

"Educational Use." By so exercising the Educational Use right you

shall not obtain any ownership, copyright, proprietary or other

interest in or to the Source Code, or any portion of the Source

Code. You may dispose of your own software in your sole discretion.

With the exception of the Educational Use right, you may not

otherwise use the Software, or an portion of the Software, which

includes the Source Code, for commercial gain.

 

3. Prohibited Uses: Under no circumstances shall you, the

end-user, be permitted, allowed or authorized to commercially exploit

the Software. Neither you nor anyone at your direction shall do any

of the following acts with regard to the Software, or any portion

thereof:

 

Rent;

 

Sell;

 

Lease;

 

Offer on a pay-per-play basis;

 

Distribute for money or any other consideration; or

 

In any other manner and through any medium whatsoever

commercially exploit or use for any commercial purpose.

 

Notwithstanding the foregoing prohibitions, you may commercially

exploit the software you develop by exercising the Educational Use

right, referenced in paragraph 2. hereinabove.

 

Clearly this is a derived engine. I do not believe that this falls into the "Educational Use right". This license is nowhere near as restrictive as the current Doom source license as there is no requirement to release code. But there is clearly a prohibition against distribution for money. Even in the PC Doom community, where licensing arguments have been raging forever, nobody is crossing that line.

 

The last thing I want to see is a repeat of Gorf3D where the community gets ultra-excited about a product that gets pulled in short order and is never seen again. It is important that licenses are considered. Producing a complete replacement iwad only fulfills the condition needed to release a complete working game (that does not require the end-user to place a commercial wad into the package.) Use of the engine or a derivative requires adherence to the included license.

 

I have been in the Jag community for a long time. I have been involved in the Doom community for just as long. I want to see advancement when it comes to Jagdoom. But I hope that this advancement will be a community advancement as opposed to that of a single group. The tendency of developers in the Jag community to form small secretive groups is one of the reasons development is so incredibly slow. Feel free to click the "Odamex" link in my signature and look at any code I have written for that Doom port as well as any of the other developers of that Doom port. Our port benefits from the advancement of the Doom community and the Doom community benefits from any advancement by Odamex. I hope the Jag community can do the same. Imagine the possibilities if the wad format were clearly defined and a fixed engine were released (including working jaglink code.) There are so many assets already out there that could be leveraged and the engine would make developing new games much easier for developers with time-limiting schedules.

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If you want to continue to discuss license issues, please take it to PM with me, or at least create a new topic.

 

The last I will say here in this topic is this.

 

If you are a follower of Doom you should know that the original Doom source releases (PC and Jag) was released under the non-commercial license, which didn't require source changes to be made public.

 

Many groups started using the Doom source for their own ports and no code was being shared back. This didn't sit well with Carmack so he changed the license to a GPL license for Doom.

 

A GPL license doesn't prohibit free or commercial use. Just that source code changes be given back. Which when we release something, we would do.

 

I have been in contact with id, so if you wish to take this discussion further, please PM me. Or if you want contact id software yourself.

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Never assume. :)

 

Some of the textures and the new enemy you see are from freedoom, but we are also replacing things as we go. The video used some freedom stuff mainly so we could put something up Jaguar wise, and show the tools I have written allow WAD manipulation.

 

Also as for the freedoom license. All the assets they have on their site are free for use in free software AND commercial software. You have to credit them and include their license agreement in your documentation. (see their site if you wish to learn more)

 

It remains to be seen if we will use anything from freedoom though. vi has been cranking out his own assets, and they look great.

 

I am assuming since this wad is based on Freedoom (or at least uses many assets from Freedoom) that when this is all done the wad will be freely available to the Jag community to use for further development?

 

I did look through the Feedoom license before you even responded. I thought it used a GPL license but it uses a BSD license and you are correct that the assets are free to use in a commercial product.

 

I would like to know how a commercial product could even be in consideration when reading through the Jagdoom source license. It is available on Atariage here:

 

http://www.atariage.com/Jaguar/archives/DoomSource/license.txt

 

The two most interesting sections are 2 and 3:

 

2. Permitted Uses. For educational purposes only, you, the

end-user, may use portions of the Source Code, such as particular

routines, to develop your own software, but may not duplicate the

Source Code, except as noted in paragraph 4. The limited right

referenced in the preceding sentence is hereinafter referred to as

"Educational Use." By so exercising the Educational Use right you

shall not obtain any ownership, copyright, proprietary or other

interest in or to the Source Code, or any portion of the Source

Code. You may dispose of your own software in your sole discretion.

With the exception of the Educational Use right, you may not

otherwise use the Software, or an portion of the Software, which

includes the Source Code, for commercial gain.

 

3. Prohibited Uses: Under no circumstances shall you, the

end-user, be permitted, allowed or authorized to commercially exploit

the Software. Neither you nor anyone at your direction shall do any

of the following acts with regard to the Software, or any portion

thereof:

 

Rent;

 

Sell;

 

Lease;

 

Offer on a pay-per-play basis;

 

Distribute for money or any other consideration; or

 

In any other manner and through any medium whatsoever

commercially exploit or use for any commercial purpose.

 

Notwithstanding the foregoing prohibitions, you may commercially

exploit the software you develop by exercising the Educational Use

right, referenced in paragraph 2. hereinabove.

 

Clearly this is a derived engine. I do not believe that this falls into the "Educational Use right". This license is nowhere near as restrictive as the current Doom source license as there is no requirement to release code. But there is clearly a prohibition against distribution for money. Even in the PC Doom community, where licensing arguments have been raging forever, nobody is crossing that line.

 

The last thing I want to see is a repeat of Gorf3D where the community gets ultra-excited about a product that gets pulled in short order and is never seen again. It is important that licenses are considered. Producing a complete replacement iwad only fulfills the condition needed to release a complete working game (that does not require the end-user to place a commercial wad into the package.) Use of the engine or a derivative requires adherence to the included license.

 

I have been in the Jag community for a long time. I have been involved in the Doom community for just as long. I want to see advancement when it comes to Jagdoom. But I hope that this advancement will be a community advancement as opposed to that of a single group. The tendency of developers in the Jag community to form small secretive groups is one of the reasons development is so incredibly slow. Feel free to click the "Odamex" link in my signature and look at any code I have written for that Doom port as well as any of the other developers of that Doom port. Our port benefits from the advancement of the Doom community and the Doom community benefits from any advancement by Odamex. I hope the Jag community can do the same. Imagine the possibilities if the wad format were clearly defined and a fixed engine were released (including working jaglink code.) There are so many assets already out there that could be leveraged and the engine would make developing new games much easier for developers with time-limiting schedules.

 

 

Dang. I would love to see a commercial cartridge release of this project, but it sounds like it may not be possible.

 

I'd buy a copy in a heartbeat!

Edited by STGuy1040
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I would like to know how a commercial product could even be in consideration when reading through the Jagdoom source license.

Who said it was 100% going to be a commercial product?

 

Please stop assuming.

 

The license does not allow for even 1% commercialization. I am not assuming anything. Belboz said on JSII:

 

One thing we have to decide is how to make the "final" product available. Many want a cart run, which could be an option depending on the interest.

 

Nobody makes and gives away carts for free. So where did I make an assumption?

 

The advancement of this community is pathetic. Look at where the Doom community has gotten since the release of the Doom source. Look at the vast amount of resources available to the XBox homebrew community even though the platform did not become viable for homebrew really until 2003/2004. Look at the Dreamcast homebrew community which was another console with limited popularity. The resources made available by those communities is massive compared to the Jag community and it is a cascading effect. Everyone gets so excited when they see these threads here and on JSII but nobody bothered to ask the questions that actually matter. Now that you guys have made working with the Jagdoom engine viable are you going to share with the community so that the community can help further that work and produce more for the Jag? Or are you simply going to make a "Everyone said it was too hard but look at what we can do!!!" video and then bask in the glory? I hope everyone is considering what this could do for Jaguar homebrew and the Jaguar community beyond the release of a simple Doom clone which has been done a million times before (though not for Jag I will admit.) Or does this community actually like the status quo where we have an agonizingly slow trickle of demo-quality releases while the couple of people who work on these releases stick to their little groups and exchange only bits and pieces and keeps things to a whisper? We have one of the most collectible consoles on our hands, an open platform at that, and we have one of the worst homebrew communities and the tightest sphincters.

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If you want to continue to discuss license issues, please take it to PM with me, or at least create a new topic.

 

The last I will say here in this topic is this.

 

If you are a follower of Doom you should know that the original Doom source releases (PC and Jag) was released under the non-commercial license, which didn't require source changes to be made public.

 

Many groups started using the Doom source for their own ports and no code was being shared back. This didn't sit well with Carmack so he changed the license to a GPL license for Doom.

 

A GPL license doesn't prohibit free or commercial use. Just that source code changes be given back. Which when we release something, we would do.

 

I have been in contact with id, so if you wish to take this discussion further, please PM me. Or if you want contact id software yourself.

 

I am very much aware of the history of the Doom licenses. I said in my original post that sharing the code was not a license requirement but would be greatly beneficial.

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Final word on this subject. If you don't like it create a new thread to bitch.

 

We have been in contact with Carmack. He said we are fine treating the Doom source as a GPL release and giving back any source code changes we make. Which we will do. He also said he would love to see us release a new cart. His only requirements were we honor the GPL and do a true total conversion (no id assets in the WAD).

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Final word on this subject. If you don't like it create a new thread to bitch.

 

We have been in contact with Carmack. He said we are fine treating the Doom source as a GPL release and giving back any source code changes we make. Which we will do. He also said he would love to see us release a new cart. His only requirements were we honor the GPL and do a true total conversion (no id assets in the WAD).

 

Thank you. That answers my question. It would have been a lot easier to do that in the first place. Given the two licenses you had to go one way or another... share and potentially release a commercial product or don't share and release only a free product. All I wanted to know was which way you planned to go. If my intention were to bitch I would do it right here in this thread and yes it makes me mad when the people in the Jag community flip out as soon as someone asks pertinent questions. The release of a Doom clone is interesting news but the release of new code that makes Jagdoom a viable engine to work with is huge news. Sorry if anything besides fawning is difficult to deal with. I know a lot of well-known Doom community developers who have done a lot of great things with the Doom source so forgive me for being more impressed by forethought and intention. It is the advancement of the Jaguar community and Jag homebrew scene that I am interested in. Thank you for the work you guys are doing.

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Why does every one think they have a right to a free ride? Sheesh....Well Belboz, now

you are no doubt about to get a little of what I've dealt with in this community for

years. Give something to it and you know that no good deed will go unpunished. ;)

 

 

Of course ther are those that want to 'go back to sleep too'. As if they think they

can do better.

 

At any rate Belboz.....Nice job figuring out the old WAD files. Amazing how some of the so called 'experts'

could not do this. You obviously have mad skills in comparison. Great Work! :)

 

Jeez... why does everyone think they can get a free ride from guys that started out with a big fat free ride? Forgive me for wanting to see the community actually become productive and for not wanting to see another Jag product get pulled as your Gorf3D product had to be. I know that it greatly pained you and the Jag community as a whole. The reason the community is this way is not because of people like me. It is because of the great wall of secrecy that everyone has built up. It has hampered this community hugely. Open communities advance quicker and produce more as can be seen in the examples I listed. The Jag community is a shining example of what closed off development looks like. It takes years for anything to happen and when something finally does happen the benefit is seen mostly in the produced product alone.

 

There are exceptions to this such as the very successful release of the Jag development tools, the Skunkboard and JCP, as well as numerous coding examples and the sharing of optimization and functionality enhancements released by you Gorf. But these are too far and few between and an exception they are.

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Thank you. That answers my question. It would have been a lot easier to do that in the first place.

We have done our homework on this. We don't feel the need to address every single thing publicly, because we have already done so in private.

 

Things are under control.

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Thank you. That answers my question. It would have been a lot easier to do that in the first place.

We have done our homework on this. We don't feel the need to address every single thing publicly, because we have already done so in private.

 

Things are under control.

 

The question as to whether or not we would see the release of the source changes is different from the commercialization question. That is important news for the community. The improvement and viability of the Jagdoom engine is important enough news to warrant a thread all its own. The Doom engine is a very flexible engine that can be used to make many different ideas and projects more viable. It has the potential to make coming into the Jaguar homebrew scene as a developer much easier and much more productive. As it is coming into the community as a developer is incredibly difficult especially in comparison to other platforms. I am involved in multiple cross-platform open-source projects that extend to even some consoles. Getting anything off the ground for the Jaguar has been a battle because working on those other platforms and those other projects is so much more productive.

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Jeez... why does everyone think they can get a free ride from guys that started out with a big fat free ride?

 

And exactly who got a 'big fat free ride'?

 

Forgive me for wanting to see the community actually become productive and for not wanting to see another Jag product get pulled as your Gorf3D product had to be. I know that it greatly pained you and the Jag community as a whole. The reason the community is this way is not because of people like me.

 

 

Not even a close relative to the Gorf situation so spare us please.

Outside of a handful of us like Belboz, none of you that bitch and

moan have lifted a finger or tried on your own to do what we are doing.

You have every last resource we have and yet you still think we are

'hiding' something from you? NO, its that we are not willing to slave

hard over this stuff just so you can demand it from us when you have

done nothing.

 

It is because of the great wall of secrecy that everyone has built up.

 

Please....what secrecy might that be? I DARE you to show any such secrecy.

 

It has hampered this community hugely.

 

Really? So you mean all that source code Curt released two years ago hampered the community?

No, what hampered the community is people never doing a damn thing with any of that source code

while the few of us that have been busting our asses over the years can just give it to you?

Again, give me and everyone else who knows better a break please.

 

 

Open communities advance quicker and produce more as can be seen in the examples I listed.

 

I dont see it. I see a few really amazing things in those communities...the rest are hacks...

essentially graphics changes and title changes....no advancement there my friend. They are fine

but I hardly think they are ground breaking.

 

 

The Jag community is a shining example of what closed off development looks like.

It takes years for anything to happen and when something finally does happen the

benefit is seen mostly in the produced product alone.

 

 

Yeah sure....again, I point out not only the sources Curt released but also my lessons at JSII

and my main code workaround....all public domain. So what ever you are smoking, it would be nice

if you shared and maybe we can imagine this nonsense along side you.

 

Oh and for the record, do you know why you even have the dev tools for the Jaguar to begin with?

Yes, I went to Brain Storm and got every last tool from them...all 16 megabytes and posted them.

But hey, I'm such a selfish bastard are'nt I? :roll:

 

Scatologic, another bunch of evil secret bastards, they SAW TO IT that Hasbro released the dev

kit offically for EVERYONE to play. Guess what has happened as a result so far.....NOTHING!

Out side of a handful of us who actually put our money where our mouth is, the rest of you have

blamed us as being the problem. People like you who have not even the beginings of a clue of the

REAL history of our generosity to this every ungrateful and usually unproductive community.

 

There are exceptions to this such as the very successful release of the Jag development tools,

the Skunkboard and JCP, as well as numerous coding examples and the sharing of optimization

and functionality enhancements released by you Gorf.

 

With the sources I mentioned from Curt and this above, what the hell else do any of you need?

I'll tell you what....you want us to work for years on an original game and just hand out the

source so you can hack it? Is this productive? Yeah on our parts but certainly not any of you

who incesantly complain over that which you have not one clue.

 

But these are too far and few between and an exception they are.

 

:roll: See the above reality as opposed to your fantasy of what really has gone on.

 

Every last one of you have EVERY THING you need including the source to DOOM at your

disposal for years and yet you still complain and want it handed to you on a silver

platter? I call shenanigans on you sir! You and every last one of you that bitch and

moan about us, when in reality it is your laziness and unwillingness to do your OWN

HARD work, waiting in lurk to pounce al over our labor and claim if for your own?

You have NO EXCUSE other than your own self unwilling to do what some of us have done.

 

Get a grip and realize you are whinning over nothing but your OWN lack of productivity.

Try working this hard, releasing a game and watchi get dumped a month later. Yu know not

what you are talking about!

 

Good Day sir!

Edited by Gorf
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When you start breaking posts up I know better than to bother. Sorry but I'm not replying to that. I'm not interested in getting involved in another thread like that in the Jaguar section of this forum. My question has been answered. Have a good night Gorf.

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The question as to whether or not we would see the release of the source changes is different from the commercialization question. That is important news for the community. The improvement and viability of the Jagdoom engine is important enough news to warrant a thread all its own. The Doom engine is a very flexible engine that can be used to make many different ideas and projects more viable. It has the potential to make coming into the Jaguar homebrew scene as a developer much easier and much more productive. As it is coming into the community as a developer is incredibly difficult especially in comparison to other platforms. I am involved in multiple cross-platform open-source projects that extend to even some consoles. Getting anything off the ground for the Jaguar has been a battle because working on those other platforms and those other projects is so much more productive.

 

Yup because like those other platforms, you all wait in lurk while those with REAL talent

work their asses off just so you can benefit. Getting anything off the Jaguar is a result

of it being BY FAR a much more difficult platform to deal with...if ONLY it were as easy

to work with as the A8,2600, 7800, and 5200 platforms. But again, what do I know....I only

coded for all of these in one form or another. I have never held back anything when asked

any techincal question I can answer honestly about any platform. This does not mean I owe

you or ANYONE everything I ever do. Im no friggin guru at all. I sat and with trial and error

as with Belboz and others, did our home work. NOw you want to copy it and hand it into the

teacher as your own? Amazing!

 

Again....Good day sir!

Edited by Gorf
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When you start breaking posts up I know better than to bother. Sorry but I'm not replying to that.

 

Now there is a real cowardly copout and non response. :lol:

 

That's rightyou know better because you dont have one damn thing

you can say otherwise. You know Im right or else you know you would

have something reasonable to say...unfortunately for you, you dont.

 

You just posted two pages of bitch and moan and when called on it, you show your true

colors....uninformed, clueless and waiting for a handout. nstead of being happy that

someone actually took the time to figure all this out, the first thing you worry about

is how you can demand it from them? For shame doc!

 

I'm not interested in getting involved in another thread like that in the Jaguar section of this forum.

 

That is because you came with nothing and will leave with nothing. YOu have no answer to the above.

 

My question has been answered. Have a good night Gorf.

 

Yes it has and quite accurately. Now we all await your amazing skills and hard work. :roll:

 

Good night indeed!

 

Now I know you actually a nice guy hyper but you need to get a grip on reality.

Edited by Gorf
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Gorf, I can go back in your history and look at all the times you have gotten into one of these pissing matches and they never get resolved. It is a pointless back and forth that I am not interested in being involved in. I've been here a long time and I know better.

 

But I do like you Gorf... your so classy.

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Gorf, I can go back in your history and look at all the times you have gotten into one of these

pissing matches and they never get resolved. It is a pointless back and forth that I am not interested

in being involved in. I've been here a long time and I know better.

 

Yup, lets duck the issue, change the subject and not answer one of my ACCURATE facts. Wonderful.

The fact is you dont know anything...else you would be able to shut me up with facts.Ther is

a TRUE slice of reality for you my friend.

 

But I do like you Gorf... your so classy.

 

Yeah like you waiting in lurk until someone who busted their ass shows a product so you can pounce?

That's some real class now isn't it? :lol:

Edited by Gorf
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It has nothing to do with what I do or do not know or what you have or have not done. I am not some noob who came in here to stir shit. I participate on AtariAge every single day. I'm not the one that waits for these particular sorts of subjects and then "pounces". You have had this exact type of argument with these exact type of posts you are making before and nobody is ever willing to concede. I don't consider it productive and I hope you don't consider it productive. They all end with strong warnings from mods and/or thread locks. They are as much a waste of time to participate in as they are to read. So do you need to feel you schooled me to put it to rest? I've been schooled Gorf. I know nothing. I've never produced anything and my entire career as a software engineer is a sham. My contributions to the open-source community all stolen... probably from people just like you. Nothing I said here was valid, based on years of experience in the Jaguar community and historical knowledge, or accurate. You are 100% right and I am 100% wrong. Now drop it. I've been trying for the last few posts to nicely put it to rest before it gets out of control and becomes another dumbass thread in the Jaguar section. You can agree to put it to rest or you can argue with nobody. I'm not going to be egged on and I will not reply again.

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I'm not going to be egged on and I will not reply again.

That would be a good tactic. He's just going to continue to pointlessly rant until it reaches the rabid foaming mouth stage and/or a threadlock, and since you've been around long enough you've seen it already.

 

On the topic of the work at hand, I hope it all works out well for everyone involved and the community. ;)

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I'm not going to be egged on and I will not reply again.

That would be a good tactic. He's just going to continue to pointlessly rant until it reaches the rabid foaming mouth stage and/or a threadlock, and since you've been around long enough you've seen it already.

 

On the topic of the work at hand, I hope it all works out well for everyone involved and the community. ;)

 

Actually I think all of Gorf's points in this current 'rant' are absolutely valid and I stand behind them 100%.

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I'm not going to be egged on and I will not reply again.

That would be a good tactic. He's just going to continue to pointlessly rant until it reaches the rabid foaming mouth stage and/or a threadlock, and since you've been around long enough you've seen it already.

 

On the topic of the work at hand, I hope it all works out well for everyone involved and the community. ;)

 

 

Dont you have some place like freejag to go to?

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I'm not going to be egged on and I will not reply again.

That would be a good tactic. He's just going to continue to pointlessly rant until it reaches the rabid foaming mouth stage and/or a threadlock, and since you've been around long enough you've seen it already.

 

On the topic of the work at hand, I hope it all works out well for everyone involved and the community. ;)

 

Actually I think all of Gorf's points in this current 'rant' are absolutely valid and I stand behind them 100%.

 

JC...its remo for crying out loud....what else do you expect for the clueless one...He';s another free ride Jag fan

if you have not noticed.

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