Screens frComputer Games:

[Mclaneinc]

I'm already working on Delta Trust me, it's more complex than you're making out with X number of sprites per line.

 

 

Pete

 

Stavros was a genius

[Mclaneinc]

Hey Jase, do you know whatever happened to Stavros / Sanxion man, last thing I saw from him was an Xmas game free on Format.

[PeteD]

Delta would be cool... but only if managable in 50/60fps? the title music is already done... so time saving there...

 

but one font per line plus preshifting means at least 50% of RAM is used?

 

Yeah, like I say it IS a RAM problem. 1 charset per line, at least for most of the screen, but then look at the background, there isn't one so even if you drew 40 chars on screen then had 40 chars for double buffer you're still <128. I'd worked it out you can probably do it eaaasily with 64 chars per line so that leaves 1/2 the ram free to put data in. Then for 8 frames of 4x shifted 4x3 (each line is a different charset, so you don't have to think of the sprites as x4 to draw into, the drawing is technically x1) sprites it's 3k (slightly less of course because of 0 position sprites). You only usually need 1 sprite type per attack wave (sometimes there are more but they don't animate) so the rest stay compressed (or at the very least un-shifted) until needed.

 

Pete

Edited March 12, 2010 by PeteD

[Heaven/TQA]

managable in 50 fps?

[TMR]

video looks good... on a first glance I would not assume that it is actually an A8 game... so PM underlays for the nasties and the background gfx? as the inner border of the background gfx seems more colorful...

 

Nope, that's part of the trick really; two of the playfield colours are dark grey and white which are used for low and highlights on all images, grey and green are the two remaining colours selected from the top bit of the character code and the four moving objects take one player each, expanded to double width (i don't use any missiles right now) and with the software sprites masking the chunky edges to make it all work. i've attached a scaled up screenshot so you can see it a little easier, YouTube mangles things and my not being much cop at uploading to it doesn't help. =-)

 

but good work... any chance to release the source?

 

No chance matey, it's an utter mess internally! But now i've remembered it's there, i'll probably add it to the back burner and tinker when i get some time. =-)

[PeteD]

I'm hoping so and there are some possibilities for cheating to keep the speed up but until the whole thing is running I can only guess. I need to stop messing with beeb stuff (I'll probably finish Arcadians port 1st) then finish off some new routines I was working on for Delta and Paradroid and "stuff" and then I can get a real idea of speed.

 

 

Pete

[TMR]

Hey Jase, do you know whatever happened to Stavros / Sanxion man, last thing I saw from him was an Xmas game free on Format.

 

No mate, not a clue after Galactic to be honest - i know a few folks were looking for him but nobody said they'd located him - Wikipedia reckons he lives in San Fransico, is behind Housemarque (a combination of his own dev team Terramarque and Bloodhouse, they did Super Stardust HD for PSN) but not actively doing anything there so presumably a silent partner and doesn't use teh interwebs!

[José Pereira]

But in my idea, if we can use Overlap to add colours.

We don't have 2Multicolour Sprites but 4.

Possible now:

2Players simultaneous and 2Enemys in the same Line.

1Player ship + ship add on- like on R-Type.

1Player Ship+3Enemys in the same Line.

 

It's possibly better to use underlays rather than overlays, set the player priorities to put them behind the playfield and then they can generate the mid range colour whilst the playfield itself provides the low and highlights - you won't get as much colour overall, but it saves a couple of issues. i've just found my test code (it was done in 2007 originally, if memory serves) and uploaded a

- the underlays are getting a little skewed because there's a timing issue and there isn't any AND/OR masking on the player object (it's the purple one and under joystick control), but generally speaking it's working and all four objects end up on the same scanline without issue - the "plan" was to produce something similar to Citadel on the C64, so there'd be a few extra software sprites over the top for bullets and static gun bases to keep the object count up a little.

 

The only problem is that even if you get it up to six objects (and only four can be on a scanline because of the colour generation) it needs 96 characters (4x4 characters per object times six) from the set for software sprite render space, so either the the backgrounds and bullet objects are going to have to squeeze into the remaining 32 characters or the objects need to be smaller (8x16 pixel objects would need 54 chars in total for six objects).

 

 

 

Hello to all.

You do that in your example because of Grays on the Backgr. Screen Graphics.

But how would you manage that into something that changes the colours of the Backgr. Gfx.?

You could also do what you're saying in PRIOR0, I think to get more colours in the Sprites.

 

 

I had an idea sometime ago and now your idea... Wouldn't it be possible to create something like a "chess" table of Large Quadruple size PMs. on the Screen and then do like you with PFs. Soft Sprites? Instead of Double and One Player you could get 2/3 (even more in vertical). You scroll the Large PM. (PM2&3 for the Enemy) and design with PF2/PF0/Backgr.) above it.

Quadruple size it's 40pixels wide (12x3=36: 3 Sprites in Line with just one PM.).

 

 

What do you think?

Greetings.

José Pereira.

[TMR]

You do that in your example because of Grays on the Backgr. Screen Graphics.

But how would you manage that into something that changes the colours of the Backgr. Gfx.?

 

i've only used a dark grey and white for the low and highlights like that because they'll "go" with any colour, the mid range shade used on the pipes could be blue, yellow, pink or any other colour as long as it was around the same luminance and the plan was always to split the green colours once a character line or at the very least once a tile row to make things more busy - what i haven't done with the test object but planned to was use the mid range grey on the sprites as well so they'd have three shades of grey and their unique colour.

 

You could also do what you're saying in PRIOR0, I think to get more colours in the Sprites.

 

A few more, but it'll not be anywhere near as uniform; i considered quite a few options and what you've seen was a deliberate design choice on my part, not the most colourful option but the one i thought looked the best.

 

Wouldn't it be possible to create something like a "chess" table of Large Quadruple size PMs. on the Screen and then do like you with PFs.

 

i've considered something similar a few times, it can be used for playfields and, with some advance planning to allow players to also work in tandem for more colours, could produce some nice-looking play areas (although horizontal scrolling would be an issue) but it wouldn't be workable for sprites either alone or at the same time as the playfield enhancements.

 

Quadruple size it's 40pixels wide (12x3=36: 3 Sprites in Line with just one PM.).

 

Except those three objects won't be able to move independently of each other horizontally... it'd be hideously limiting for anything that's trying to move.

[José Pereira]

Hi again.

 

What I was saying on the last post was doing something like this:

This ways you could get 3+3, 6Enemys in a Line. But this seems a little bit difficult (impossible) to get because of the space between each Enemy. But if you turn this into just two Enemys (each one is 3Chars) you can get a space of 4Chars between them. You can get now a maxim. Of 4Enemys by Line and a Large number possible on Vertical:

 

 

 

And using PRIOR0, I'll get:

PM0&1 for our 2ships in Normalwidth.

PM2&3 in Quadruple width for the Enemys.

 

 

The Screen colours have to be:

PF0-Black (To mask PM2&3)

PF1- The Dark Gray here will be a MiddleLight Gray. The inside colour of the Backgr. Graphics and outside colour of the PMs.

PF2- Brown

PF3- DarkGray

Backgr.- Light Brown

 

 

 

Our 2Spaceships:

PF1-Pixels Around them

PF1+PM0 (PM1 on the other)

PM0 (PM1 on the other)

 

 

The Enemys:

PF1-Pixels around them

PM2+PF3 (PM3 on the other)

PM2 PM3 on the other)

 

 

 

In PRIOR0 (and all the others...) PM0&1 goes always in front of PM2&3 and above all PFs.

No problem because PM0&1 are in Normal size.

 

 

PM2&3 can have a maxim. of three in each line.

When they move you just create squares of the PM2 and/or PM3 on this Line.

I starts with just PM2 one colour and PM3 the other colour.

 

But with some tricks you could create PM2&3 on Top with 1 colour each at the top and PM2&3 with 1colour eachone at the bottom. The trick is how to interlace them at the middle.

 

 

 

 

 

Another thing I've been thinking is the use of PF3 on the Enemys and that it would not mess with the Backgr. PF2 Gfx(s).

I've read your Posts, but something came into my mind:

 

1Charset by 2Lines in wide 48Chars Screen Mode it's 96chars.

If you do like 96Tiles:

Line0: 0->47

Line1: 48->95

And put the different Sprites frames as different Tiles you're still using 96chars, right?

And you can do this simply because the Enemys movement is pre-defined. You only have to go changing Tiles with different Enemys frames. And now working, with Tiles you can change Enemys Tiles and they never get into PF2 Backgr.Gfx(s).

Could it be this way?

 

Now you still have 32Chars free. You're working in a 2Line/1Charset basis, soo, each of your ship is 3chars+1shiftingx2Lines=8Chars. 2Spaceships is 16 Chars.

 

96+16=112 Chars. You have 16free for the bullets, what is O.K.!

 

The C64 scren 25Lines high will be 13Kb. of Charsets (Charset 0->12).

Possible?

 

 

 

 

This picture was done before this Expanded Underlays PMs posts.

I've redone my initial idea with the PF0 (instead of PF3) in Border of the Sprites.

In my idea I can have 2 Enemys in each Line. But as I show yesterday, I can have 3or4. On the yesterday first picture you see 3Enemys in a Line. Ihave the idea of doing something like P2,Soft Sprite,P3. The Middle one is only a Soft sprite but with the others in this and other Lines beeing diffrent colours it look good, I think...

The PF3 on Moving Objects are only in the Enemys (my idea of the Tiles would fix any possibility of colour clashing).

This picture only have one Enemy, the Large one uses PF3 instead of PF2 on the Backstage Gfx.:

 

 

I think we can get real and workable ideas on this Threads.

I'm no intention to port all the Armalyte Game in Graphics to A8.

But of course that if someone want to port it, it would be great (this and many of the others).

And if some of my ideas can give ideas to others I'll be very happy.

If someone want me to help and redone some games I'm free to do it. And I think someone(s) are...

You'll see 1 or 2 games (I hope...) gfx by me and coding by someone else(s). But wait untill I have 100% sure to know the Name(s).

One are a Game that most of you want to see on A8 !...

 

 

 

greetings.

José Pereira.

[José Pereira]

 

This picture was done before this Expanded Underlays PMs posts.

I've redone my initial idea with the PF0 (instead of PF3) in Border of the Sprites.

In my idea I can have 2 Enemys in each Line. But as I show yesterday, I can have 3or4. On the yesterday first picture you see 3Enemys in a Line. Ihave the idea of doing something like P2,Soft Sprite,P3. The Middle one is only a Soft sprite but with the others in this and other Lines beeing diffrent colours it look good, I think...

The PF3 on Moving Objects are only in the Enemys (my idea of the Tiles would fix any possibility of colour clashing).

This picture only have one Enemy, the Large one uses PF3 instead of PF2 on the Backstage Gfx.:

 

 

 

 

greetings.

José Pereira.

 

 

Sorry but this was, as you can see a wrong picture.

Cosider this text with this picture:

 

Sorry once more time.

Greetings.

José Pereira.

[Heaven/TQA]

Hi again.

 

What I was saying on the last post was doing something like this:

This ways you could get 3+3, 6Enemys in a Line. But this seems a little bit difficult (impossible) to get because of the space between each Enemy. But if you turn this into just two Enemys (each one is 3Chars) you can get a space of 4Chars between them. You can get now a maxim. Of 4Enemys by Line and a Large number possible on Vertical:

 

 

 

And using PRIOR0, I'll get:

PM0&1 for our 2ships in Normalwidth.

PM2&3 in Quadruple width for the Enemys.

 

 

The Screen colours have to be:

PF0-Black (To mask PM2&3)

PF1- The Dark Gray here will be a MiddleLight Gray. The inside colour of the Backgr. Graphics and outside colour of the PMs.

PF2- Brown

PF3- DarkGray

Backgr.- Light Brown

 

 

 

Our 2Spaceships:

PF1-Pixels Around them

PF1+PM0 (PM1 on the other)

PM0 (PM1 on the other)

 

 

The Enemys:

PF1-Pixels around them

PM2+PF3 (PM3 on the other)

PM2 PM3 on the other)

 

 

 

In PRIOR0 (and all the others...) PM0&1 goes always in front of PM2&3 and above all PFs.

No problem because PM0&1 are in Normal size.

 

 

PM2&3 can have a maxim. of three in each line.

When they move you just create squares of the PM2 and/or PM3 on this Line.

I starts with just PM2 one colour and PM3 the other colour.

 

But with some tricks you could create PM2&3 on Top with 1 colour each at the top and PM2&3 with 1colour eachone at the bottom. The trick is how to interlace them at the middle.

 

 

 

 

 

Another thing I've been thinking is the use of PF3 on the Enemys and that it would not mess with the Backgr. PF2 Gfx(s).

I've read your Posts, but something came into my mind:

 

1Charset by 2Lines in wide 48Chars Screen Mode it's 96chars.

If you do like 96Tiles:

Line0: 0->47

Line1: 48->95

And put the different Sprites frames as different Tiles you're still using 96chars, right?

And you can do this simply because the Enemys movement is pre-defined. You only have to go changing Tiles with different Enemys frames. And now working, with Tiles you can change Enemys Tiles and they never get into PF2 Backgr.Gfx(s).

Could it be this way?

 

Now you still have 32Chars free. You're working in a 2Line/1Charset basis, soo, each of your ship is 3chars+1shiftingx2Lines=8Chars. 2Spaceships is 16 Chars.

 

96+16=112 Chars. You have 16free for the bullets, what is O.K.!

 

The C64 scren 25Lines high will be 13Kb. of Charsets (Charset 0->12).

Possible?

 

 

 

 

This picture was done before this Expanded Underlays PMs posts.

I've redone my initial idea with the PF0 (instead of PF3) in Border of the Sprites.

In my idea I can have 2 Enemys in each Line. But as I show yesterday, I can have 3or4. On the yesterday first picture you see 3Enemys in a Line. Ihave the idea of doing something like P2,Soft Sprite,P3. The Middle one is only a Soft sprite but with the others in this and other Lines beeing diffrent colours it look good, I think...

The PF3 on Moving Objects are only in the Enemys (my idea of the Tiles would fix any possibility of colour clashing).

This picture only have one Enemy, the Large one uses PF3 instead of PF2 on the Backstage Gfx.:

 

 

I think we can get real and workable ideas on this Threads.

I'm no intention to port all the Armalyte Game in Graphics to A8.

But of course that if someone want to port it, it would be great (this and many of the others).

And if some of my ideas can give ideas to others I'll be very happy.

If someone want me to help and redone some games I'm free to do it. And I think someone(s) are...

You'll see 1 or 2 games (I hope...) gfx by me and coding by someone else(s). But wait untill I have 100% sure to know the Name(s).

One are a Game that most of you want to see on A8 !...

 

 

 

greetings.

José Pereira.

 

 

aeh... and regarding moving tons of these "softsprites" + PMs??? you really think that our CPU is fast enough? I doubt... to be honest...

[PeteD]

 

 

 

aeh... and regarding moving tons of these "softsprites" + PMs??? you really think that our CPU is fast enough? I doubt... to be honest...

 

That's the whole problem with a lot of these, José makes it look as if it's easy and 10 mins work in G2F is light years away from actually coding it

 

 

Pete

[José Pereira]

 

 

 

aeh... and regarding moving tons of these "softsprites" + PMs??? you really think that our CPU is fast enough? I doubt... to be honest...

 

 

That was examples of the moving process.

Cosider just the ones at start position (inside the red Line):

 

Greetings.

josé Pereira.

[TMR]

This ways you could get 3+3, 6Enemys in a Line. But this seems a little bit difficult (impossible) to get because of the space between each Enemy. But if you turn this into just two Enemys (each one is 3Chars) you can get a space of 4Chars between them. You can get now a maxim. Of 4Enemys by Line and a Large number possible on Vertical

 

Well, for a start a single quad-expanded player is eight characters across so there's only room for two 3 character wide objects within that area (they need a character gap between them or there'll be a need for even more complex masking) and even with the associated missile helping out that's ten characters when they need eleven for three objects. Secondly, none of those objects can move in an interesting way unless the entire group whose colour generated by the same player goes along too (and any below get out of the way) and that's never going to make a decent attack wave engine.

Edited March 12, 2010 by TMR

[José Pereira]

This ways you could get 3+3, 6Enemys in a Line. But this seems a little bit difficult (impossible) to get because of the space between each Enemy. But if you turn this into just two Enemys (each one is 3Chars) you can get a space of 4Chars between them. You can get now a maxim. Of 4Enemys by Line and a Large number possible on Vertical

 

Well, for a start a single quad-expanded player is eight characters across so there's only room for two 3 character wide objects within that area (they need a character gap between them or there'll be a need for even more complex masking) and even with the associated missile helping out that's ten characters when they need eleven for three objects. Secondly, none of those objects can move in an interesting way unless the entire group whose colour generated by the same player goes along too (and any below get out of the way) and that's never going to make a decent attack wave engine.

 

 

Yes, but I said with three was impossible.

But see the second picture with the red lines.

2PM2+2PM3 on Top and the same at the bottom.

 

Youn can also get 4 in a Line (2 using PM2 and more two using PM3) and they can have a space of 4chars between each Sprite.

You can get Sprite+4Chars space+Sprite(PM2)-Greenish any space and Sprite+4Chars space+Sprite-Brownish in a Line

The same at the Bottom.

They will change positions(Up, down, left, right) but always 4on a Line.

 

 

In this Method Soft+Hardw. with this 8 on Screen + 2Ships would it be two many for A8 speed?

 

 

 

And by the way, any of you understand what I said about the Enemys done in the "Tikes replacemenT"?

 

 

 

 

Will try to play (Infinitive lives, I think I can put Vice/CCS Emulators in a slow, slow motion).

Greetings.

José Pereira.

[analmux]

aeh... and regarding moving tons of these "softsprites" + PMs??? you really think that our CPU is fast enough? I doubt... to be honest...

 

OK, of course you're right. However, if there were no dreamers here, then there wouldn't be new software pushing the machine either. I don't care whether Jose's ideas are actually applicable for a real game scenario. Just a step into an interesting direction could be triggered by such mock-ups.

[TMR]

aeh... and regarding moving tons of these "softsprites" + PMs??? you really think that our CPU is fast enough? I doubt... to be honest...

 

OK, of course you're right. However, if there were no dreamers here, then there wouldn't be new software pushing the machine either. I don't care whether Jose's ideas are actually applicable for a real game scenario.

 

He's asking if the ideas are viable in that context, when that happens would you prefer that everybody lied or simply ignored him?

[Heaven/TQA]

i love his ideas and it gives me some new thoughts same with yours, Jason's, Pete's and others comments...

 

I really underestimated "underlays".

[Rybags]

Gotta wonder... how would an underlay go, e.g. if it was producing a blue shaded object by merging with shades of grey, and multiplexed such that it's shared and only used once every 2 frames.

 

Since the luma is constant, you shouldn't get flickering too badly, the net result would probably be that the colour just looked a little washed out.

[TMR]

Gotta wonder... how would an underlay go, e.g. if it was producing a blue shaded object by merging with shades of grey, and multiplexed such that it's shared and only used once every 2 frames.

 

Since the luma is constant, you shouldn't get flickering too badly, the net result would probably be that the colour just looked a little washed out.

 

In theory it should work okay yeah, as long as the luminances are a close match you could probably mix two hues as well.

[José Pereira]

quote name='José Pereira' date='Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:40 PM' timestamp='1268422822' post='1962552']

 

 

 

 

 

Will try to play (Infinitive lives, I think I can put Vice/CCS Emulators in a slow, slow motion).

Greetings.

José Pereira.

 

 

Yes, hours and hours, but not Playing, just scrolling.

And having very, very interesting cocnlusions.

 

First I am getting all the actacking waves in all the Levels.

And I get some interesting results:

 

 

 

There are two majour type of atacking waves:

1.)- In Open space.

2.)- Inside the Ships.

 

 

I'll have the solution for the two (Large Ships/Enemys to follow).

All the Enemys are just Soft Sprites. You just need PM2&3 at some places of the Screen (in Open and with Ships). I will prove to you. And not more than 3/4 of each on Screen.

 

 

1.)- OPEN SPACE:

 

 

From here you see what we can have on A8.

But I'm using PRIOR0. You can use PRIOR0 but only on your Ship, it's a matter of taste.

 

 

Now I'm talking with concrete facts. This is only Level1_1st attacking wave and I'll will show all the game ones and will show how it could (can?) be on A8.

 

 

Greetings.

José Pereira.

 

 

 

Here you see that, Brown Enemys are only 2 at a Line maxim. (Brown are always not more than two at a Line in all Open spaces).

From what I've seen it works in all Open Spaces using only PM2&3 on the top ones and PM2&3 on the Bottom ones, soo, it's only 4PMs on Enemys (Top PM2&3 not go to Down PM2&3 in this case, but if they do they are not more than two at a Line):

C64 & A8 Redone:

(our Ships are PM0&1 like always)

[José Pereira]

Me and my need to write to you and always a mess.

 

 

Level1_Attacking Wave:

 

 

C64 Screen:

 

A8 with PRIOR0 on Enemys:

 

A8 with PRIOR0 but only on Our Ships, On Enemys the PMs.2&3 colours are only on Backgr.:

 

Yes, this last one looks better, I prefer this one "more like C64". Probably Ored colours on Enemys in other Attacking Waves...

 

 

 

 

José Pereira.

[José Pereira]

This time End of Open Space and entering an large Ship.

 

The C64Screen:

 

What you see here: it's almost the same as before, but see some things.

On the left you'll the last two ships of the Open Space process. they are the SoftSprites.

If on the last ackacking wave you get the same PFs. colours as the comming Large Spaceship you wouldn't have any problem. and that's exactly what they've done on C64.

The second (more light) Blue on Ship are change into PF3.

 

Once again I prove to you that there are only 4PMs. on Enemys. Two at the top / DLI / two at the Bottom.

This time I Ored The Enemys as I think it look better:

 

 

As you can again see, none of my crazy ideas. Just one PM0&1 and 2PM2 and 2PM3.

Any comments now?

I would like to ear your opinions!...

 

 

Thanks.

Greetings.

José Pereira.

[José Pereira]

Sorry but if your work with Pf2 you'll get 2Blues on the Enemy Ships and look good with the others Ored colours:

 

 

Untill now it doesn't seem a so difficult one, but harder Screens will come!

José Pereira.