Atari 400 and Disk Drives

[Sardonyx]

Until today I've never tried to connect a disk drive to my Atari 400; I've always used a cassette with it. I have two 1050s that I use with my Atari 800XL and I decided to see if they would work with the 400. After hooking everything think up, I had a Rev. C BASIC cart in the Atari and DOS 2.5 Master loaded in the drive. On boot, the 400 read the disk and I got a message that it was loading 130XE extensions which was quite weird. Then the screen became garbage and stayed that way, though the garbage continued to actively change.

 

Is there a compatibility issue with DOS 2.5 and the Atari 400? The system only has 16K RAM, is this not enough? Any pointers would be great!

Edited February 10, 2010 by Sardonyx

[Rybags]

You can't use the 130XE extensions with the 400. They need the extended RAM which is not present in any 400/800 (disregarding those people have modded to be 130XE compatible).

 

Best option, duplicate the disk, then rename the AUTORUN.SYS to something else.

 

Standard DOS 2.5 should be OK on any machine. But be aware there are modded versions around that only work on XL-compatible 64K+ machines. The one I use is patched to announce itself as "DOS 2.5XL" in the menu.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Rybags

[Nukey Shay]

I used an Atari 400 for a time with DOS 2.5...no incompatabilities exist. As mentioned, the problem is the RAMdisk extentions trying to execute, since it's expecting the XL/XE memory-banking scheme to be present in the machine. IIRC, the subroutines come from RAMDISK.COM, not AUTORUN.SYS.

 

Be aware that booting DOS using a stock 400 cuts it's available memory in half. A good share of commercial 16k games will work fine, tho...since many use their own boot loading routines instead of a full DOS.

[walter_J64bit]

I recall there use to be a 64K upgrades for 400, that doesn't make it XL/XE compatible but you can use a Disk Drives, Printers and other hardware if any thing with that 64k you might be able to use some XL RAMdisk.

Edited February 10, 2010 by walter_J64bit

[Sardonyx]

Thanks for all the replies, this is very helpful!

 

You can't use the 130XE extensions with the 400. They need the extended RAM which is not present in any 400/800 (disregarding those people have modded to be 130XE compatible).

 

Best option, duplicate the disk, then rename the AUTORUN.SYS to something else.

 

Standard DOS 2.5 should be OK on any machine. But be aware there are modded versions around that only work on XL-compatible 64K+ machines. The one I use is patched to announce itself as "DOS 2.5XL" in the menu.

 

I was surprised by the 130XE extensions loading as I've never noticed that message on the 800XL. It's a standard DOS 2.5 Master Disk that I made from my original Atari manufactured master. I'll try renaming AUTORUN.SYS on a copy as you suggested and give that a shot.

 

I used an Atari 400 for a time with DOS 2.5...no incompatabilities exist. As mentioned, the problem is the RAMdisk extentions trying to execute, since it's expecting the XL/XE memory-banking scheme to be present in the machine. IIRC, the subroutines come from RAMDISK.COM, not AUTORUN.SYS.

 

Be aware that booting DOS using a stock 400 cuts it's available memory in half. A good share of commercial 16k games will work fine, tho...since many use their own boot loading routines instead of a full DOS.

 

Glad to hear that it does work! I'll also give renaming RAMDISK.COM a shot as well if AUTORUN.SYS doesn't fix it. (I'm not sure which of the two is right, so I'll try both) I'm mostly just curious to see the drives work on the 400. The 400 was my first computer, but I never had an Atari disk drive until last year when I bought the 800XL.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Sardonyx

[atariksi]

...

Glad to hear that it does work! I'll also give renaming RAMDISK.COM a shot as well if AUTORUN.SYS doesn't fix it. (I'm not sure which of the two is right, so I'll try both) I'm mostly just curious to see the drives work on the 400. The 400 was my first computer, but I never had an Atari disk drive until last year when I bought the 800XL.

 

It's hard to type fast with that keyboard. It's a nice compact machine but for me the keyboard definitely needs a upgrade to use for typing stuff.

 

I have also used DOS 2.0 and 2.5 and don't have any RAM drive loading going on and this was on Atari 800.

[Sardonyx]

I went ahead and copied the Master Disk again using the 800XL and renamed RAMDISK.COM to XXXDISK.XXX. There doesn't seem to be an AUTORUN.SYS file on the original Master. Booting the modified disk up on the Atari 400 works perfectly!

 

I did take note of the 800XL boot up and it doesn't display the part about loading the 130XE extensions even with the RAMDISK.COM file in place. Not sure why the 400 does, but it seems to work fine with that file renamed

 

Thanks very much for the help!

[Nukey Shay]

I recall there use to be a 64K upgrades for 400, that doesn't make it XL/XE compatible

 

Nope...different banking schemes. Besides which, Atari offered no such upgrade themselves for the 400 AFAIK.

[Sardonyx]

It's hard to type fast with that keyboard. It's a nice compact machine but for me the keyboard definitely needs a upgrade to use for typing stuff.

 

I have also used DOS 2.0 and 2.5 and don't have any RAM drive loading going on and this was on Atari 800.

 

Hehe, yeah the original membrane keyboard wasn't very good. I eventually replaced it with a B-Key Keyboard (At least I think that's what it's called) and it's a bit better to type on, though it's still not that great. At the time I got it I was just thrilled to have a computer though, membrane keyboard and all!

 

The other thing is I've become spoiled by the composite output. It's a lot clearer than the RF Modulated output of the 400, even after analog broadcast has gone dark.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Sardonyx

[atariksi]

I recall there use to be a 64K upgrades for 400, that doesn't make it XL/XE compatible

 

Nope...different banking schemes. Besides which, Atari offered no such upgrade themselves for the 400 AFAIK.

 

I'm surprised there aren't many RAM/SRAM cartridges available for A400/A800 as that would be so easy and solderless to upgrade RAM.

[tregare]

I recall there use to be a 64K upgrades for 400, that doesn't make it XL/XE compatible

 

Nope...different banking schemes. Besides which, Atari offered no such upgrade themselves for the 400 AFAIK.

 

I'm surprised there aren't many RAM/SRAM cartridges available for A400/A800 as that would be so easy and solderless to upgrade RAM.

 

 

there were aftermarket memory upgrades, including a 256k cartridge for the A800.

[walter_J64bit]

I recall there use to be a 64K upgrades for 400, that doesn't make it XL/XE compatible

 

Nope...different banking schemes. Besides which, Atari offered no such upgrade themselves for the 400 AFAIK.

Oh,OK it would just be 400 with just 64K and thing more. I did find a 64K upgrade mod, look here.

[+rdemming]

I went ahead and copied the Master Disk again using the 800XL and renamed RAMDISK.COM to XXXDISK.XXX. There doesn't seem to be an AUTORUN.SYS file on the original Master. Booting the modified disk up on the Atari 400 works perfectly!

 

I did take note of the 800XL boot up and it doesn't display the part about loading the 130XE extensions even with the RAMDISK.COM file in place. Not sure why the 400 does, but it seems to work fine with that file renamed

 

Thanks very much for the help!

 

Can it have something to do with the PIA's PORT B register?

On the Atari 400/800 this port is configured as input and reads joystick port 3 & 4. The XL and XE series don't have joystick 3 & 4 and there port B is configured as output to enable/disable the OS/Selftest and extended memory.

 

Maybe the ramdisk detection routine falsely detects extra ram because PORT B is configured as input instead of output.

 

An addition thought, the extended memory is on $4000-$7FFF. On 16KB machines, there is no RAM here at all. An extended ram detection routine might get confused by this too because reading/writing to non existing memory returns undetermined results. If this is the case, then this problem could also arise on 16KB 600XL machines.

 

Robert

Edited February 10, 2010 by rdemming

[+bob1200xl]

Atari did make a 64K memory upgrade for the 400/800. (CA061435 is the card number) You had to add wires to your 400, but the 800 had a jumper card that you used, instead.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

I recall there use to be a 64K upgrades for 400, that doesn't make it XL/XE compatible

 

Nope...different banking schemes. Besides which, Atari offered no such upgrade themselves for the 400 AFAIK.

Oh,OK it would just be 400 with just 64K and thing more. I did find a 64K upgrade mod, look here.

[UNIXcoffee928]

Hehe, yeah the original membrane keyboard wasn't very good.  I eventually replaced it with a B-Key Keyboard (At least I think that's what it's called) and it's a bit better to type on, though it's still not that great.  At the time I got it I was just thrilled to have a computer though, membrane keyboard and all!  ...

 

Actually, the 400 keyboard was way ahead of it's time, but the magazines slammed the keyboard, giving it it's bad reputation. 

 

There is a trick to typing well on a 400. You need to use a stronger velocity in your actual keystrokes per finger, & you need to slide your finger (hitting the key) off the key, in a forward direction. If you type this way on a 400, you can type very quickly, indeed.

 

There is a trick to the stronger velocity keystroke, too... hit hard, but quickly. After the initial hit of the keystroke, decompress. This way your fingers won't end up hurting from rigid & hard hitting repetition. (Sort of along the lines of what your whole body does on a half-pipe/vert, if you pump up the face of the wall, you hit it compressed, then decompress and go back in fakie, for example.)... Meaning, your muscles are not always stiff... allow for the decompression, and your hands won't hurt!.

 

The actual keystroke motion is almost identical to hammer-ons / pull-offs on a guitar, except you "pull off" vertically (toward the back of the computer), rather than horizontally, as on a guitar (you can do pull-offs vertically on a guitar, too, but they aren't as common). Just look up hammer ons & pull offs on youtube, to get the gist of it quickly. 

 

Optionally, a quick little horizontal vibrato motion with the pad of your fingertip (instead of a pull-off) ensures a perfect hit every time, too, ha. A slight bit slower, but definitely accurate.

 

Try it, you'll see what I mean. Works great.

 

Having used a 400 a lot, as a kid, I still bang the sh*t out of spacebars, as a bad habit... lol... because, you guessed it, the 400 spacebar works best when you slam it with your thumb (in an identical fashion to hitting a low root note (with the right hand) on a synthesizer keyboard riff (or thumping a note on an electric bass with the side of  your thumb, at the last joint, on the outer edge of the tilted thumb), then applying the guitar pull-off technique (only with the thumb)). 

 

Anyway, the above method works wonders on a stock 400 keyboard. Once you figure out the method I've described, you'll be able to type very fast on the 400.

 

...I guess you'll also learn a bit about skateboarding, snowboarding, guitar, bass, and keyboards, too... ha.

 

Have fun!

[jimarm]

I spent a lot of time typing programs from Antic/Analog/Compute! into the 400 on that membrane keyboard...then saving them to the 410.

Good times!

 

Jim

[tep392]

I spent a lot of time typing programs from Antic/Analog/Compute! into the 400 on that membrane keyboard...then saving them to the 410.

Good times!

 

Jim

 

Same here. I look back on those times with fond memories, but man, were those 410 loading times painful. That's also when I learned about the value of backups.

[atariksi]

I spent a lot of time typing programs from Antic/Analog/Compute! into the 400 on that membrane keyboard...then saving them to the 410.

Good times!

 

Jim

 

Same here. I look back on those times with fond memories, but man, were those 410 loading times painful. That's also when I learned about the value of backups.

 

It's hard to get used to it if you use the normal keyboards everyday.

[mimo]

 

Having used a 400 a lot, as a kid, I still bang the sh*t out of spacebars, as a bad habit... lol... because, you guessed it, the 400 spacebar works best when you slam it with your thumb (in an identical fashion to hitting a low root note (with the right hand) on a synthesizer keyboard riff (or thumping a note on an electric bass with the side of your thumb, at the last joint, on the outer edge of the tilted thumb), then applying the guitar pull-off technique (only with the thumb)).

 

 

Have fun!

 

 

 

Haha, me too:D

I love the look of the membrane keyboard, and I do little to no typeing on a 400 anyways so the membranes are staying. Just need to order another one from best so I can replace that fugly bkey monster on my 3rd 400:cool:

[lykewyse]

Actually, the 400 keyboard was way ahead of it's time, but the magazines slammed the keyboard, giving it it's bad reputation. 

<snip>

 

Very poetic description of attempting to type on a 400 keyboard (or any chicklet keyboard... generally very popular in the 80s on children's "educational" machines because they were therefore rendered impenetrable by Ecto Cooler, Crystal Pepsi, or the drink du jour). I don't honestly see a huge difference in trying to type on the 400's chicklet board and trying to type on a cheap modern laptop keyboard (plastic-plunger type). But, I think the best idea I've seen was someone (doctorclu, I think) putting an 800 keyboard on a 400. The feedback on that particular keyboard, like the feedback one might get from an IBM Model M, is just beautiful.

[atariksi]

Actually, the 400 keyboard was way ahead of it's time, but the magazines slammed the keyboard, giving it it's bad reputation. 

<snip>

 

Very poetic description of attempting to type on a 400 keyboard (or any chicklet keyboard... generally very popular in the 80s on children's "educational" machines because they were therefore rendered impenetrable by Ecto Cooler, Crystal Pepsi, or the drink du jour). I don't honestly see a huge difference in trying to type on the 400's chicklet board and trying to type on a cheap modern laptop keyboard (plastic-plunger type). But, I think the best idea I've seen was someone (doctorclu, I think) putting an 800 keyboard on a 400. The feedback on that particular keyboard, like the feedback one might get from an IBM Model M, is just beautiful.

 

IBM Model M-- is that the one with a trackpoint stuck in the middle of it?

 

Currently, I use the same keyboard for Amiga, Atari 400/800/XL/XEGS, and Gateway desktop (PC compatbile). But the 400 keyboard feels a bit weird when I used it especially trying to press CTRL or SHIFT based characters. I just got through simulating the CONSOL keys in software (START/OPTION/SELECT) for software that lets me load a driver.

[lykewyse]

Actually, the 400 keyboard was way ahead of it's time, but the magazines slammed the keyboard, giving it it's bad reputation. 

<snip>

<snip>

The feedback on that particular keyboard [Atari 800], like the feedback one might get from an IBM Model M, is just beautiful.

 

IBM Model M-- is that the one with a trackpoint stuck in the middle of it?

 

Currently, I use the same keyboard for Amiga, Atari 400/800/XL/XEGS, and Gateway desktop (PC compatbile). But the 400 keyboard feels a bit weird when I used it especially trying to press CTRL or SHIFT based characters. I just got through simulating the CONSOL keys in software (START/OPTION/SELECT) for software that lets me load a driver.

 

The IBM Model M keyboard is the one that came standard with IBM PCs up through 1993 or so (the ones with the cable that looked like a phone cord with a PS/2 port at the end). It is often affectionately called the "Clicky". I like that the 800 keyboard--even if it is slightly non-standard--gives me a similar feedback experience, even if it was merely designed that way to "map" the feel of an office typewriter to a computer keyboard... you know, so that your mom doesn't feel disoriented when she's using it.