Why is nobody interested in programming an improved DK?

[+save2600]

I just had this thought after reading yet another comment about how disappointing 2600 DK is/was/forever shall be. lol

 

A quick search and slightly better than a passive awareness of homebrews yields nothing that I'm aware of. Screw the hacks. Honestly, I'm tried of sifting through all the hacks of games with changed titles. It's beyond confusing and irritating. What I'd love to see is a completely re-written from scratch version of DK that features more realistic graphics, sounds, colors & gameplay. Lots of highly talented programmers out there, but maybe DK is a little too ambitious for 'em? lol I would think that with the superior programming tricks and knowledge people have attained, coupled with a higher memory scheme, we could have a 3-4 DK board(s) that look really nice...

 

Forgive me if this has been talked about before, but I haven't seen or heard of anyone attempting this yet.

[+GroovyBee]

Good question. Personally speaking the game doesn't hold much fascination for me so I'll pass.

[VectorGamer]

I'm not a programmer, but wouldn't Donkey Kong be fruitless on a 2600? I would think a better DK could be written for the 7800 or ColecoVision where you have more machine to do more.

[+save2600]

I'm not a programmer, but wouldn't Donkey Kong be fruitless on a 2600? I would think a better DK could be written for the 7800 or ColecoVision where you have more machine to do more.

Aww, now I'm disappointed by that answer! lol C'mon... that's like saying ALL old video games suck and we should just be gaming on the latest, greatest systems! 7800 DK is quite good enough as-is. Excellent actually and the CV version suffers from different levels that are NOT true to the arcade, so yeah - that can be improved but... what I'm interested in seeing is DK redeemed on the 2600. One of the reasons I love the 2600 so much is the fact that many programmers pushed the system to its limits. Some damn good games were the result. A better DK *CAN* be done on the 2600. Be nice to see that come to fruition... and yeah, it could be called Donkey Kong Redemption lol

Edited February 10, 2010 by save2600

[jetset]

Agreed. DK on the 2600 was as much a disappointment as Pac-Man. Maybe not as HUGE due to the hype over Pac-Man, but imo it's pretty much as far removed from the arcade. And seeing how Pac has been MUCH improved since, I bet DK could be done as well. At least with Pac-Man the sequel(s), Ms Pac and Jr Pac were done well. DK had only one sequel, but was a lot different gameplay to begin with, and still ultimately sucked.

[accousticguitar]

Nintendo's lawyers.

[+save2600]

Nintendo's lawyers.

Pffftt! lol

 

You think anyone is gonna care about a DK remake for the 2600? How about all the other remakes and hacks? Ladybug and Universal? The countless Tetris clones? Paramount Pictures isn't going after anybody for Borg Wars either and they're notorious for suing people over their trademarks.

[VectorGamer]

I'm not a programmer, but wouldn't Donkey Kong be fruitless on a 2600? I would think a better DK could be written for the 7800 or ColecoVision where you have more machine to do more.

Aww, now I'm disappointed by that answer! lol C'mon... that's like saying ALL old video games suck and we should just be gaming on the latest, greatest systems! 7800 DK is quite good enough as-is. Excellent actually and the CV version suffers from different levels that are NOT true to the arcade, so yeah - that can be improved but... what I'm interested in seeing is DK redeemed on the 2600. One of the reasons I love the 2600 so much is the fact that many programmers pushed the system to its limits. Some damn good games were the result. A better DK *CAN* be done on the 2600. Be nice to see that come to fruition... and yeah, it could be called Donkey Kong Redemption lol

 

At least I kept a new and improved DK for a platform within the classic era...

 

Problem with the 7800 is the audio and that's what turns me off about that release. When you play arcade Donkey Kong and then the ColecoVision version you see how imperfect the CV version really is. I'm looking forward to Eduardo's update on DK for the CV.

 

I'd support someone's efforts for "Donkey Kong Arcade" on the 2600. Hopefully the graphics are at least comparable to that of the CV, includes all levels, is as tough as the arcade version and isn't a flicker fest.

[kskunk]

I'd support someone's efforts for "Donkey Kong Arcade" on the 2600. Hopefully the graphics are at least comparable to that of the CV, includes all levels, is as tough as the arcade version and isn't a flicker fest.

With bank switching and a very patient developer, it should be possible to implement all the levels and gameplay.

 

But the graphics seem like a major problem. I'm not very experienced with 2600 programming, but I can't see how the backgrounds could translate well, certainly not as well as the ColecoVision. The character sprites might get a little closer...

 

Maybe the answer to "why nobody is programming DK" is that the 2600 just isn't a very good technical match for Donkey Kong's style of graphics. Hobby programmers who want to make impressive graphics on the 2600, will probably choose games that are a better fit for the 2600's abilities.

 

- KS

[xybot67]

I also agree that a new improved version would be great, unfortunately, I know nothing about programming. I am sure that I read somewhere that the original programmers said that they could have a least added the third level, but due to time constraints, it was never implemented. It would have been interseting to see what they could have pulled of.

P.S. I always thought that the Mario sprite was well don.

[jaybird3rd]

Maybe the answer to "why nobody is programming DK" is that the 2600 just isn't a very good technical match for Donkey Kong's style of graphics. Hobby programmers who want to make impressive graphics on the 2600, will probably choose games that are a better fit for the 2600's abilities.

I think that's one of the main reasons. Another reason is that there are so many other platforms to play Donkey Kong on today, not to mention emulation of the original coin-op. Anyone who is in love with Donkey Kong enough to develop a whole new version on the 2600 can easily get their fix elsewhere.

[jeremysart]

Heres something that is fully possible:

 

A better DK on the intellivision. Talk about a TERRIBLE port on a system that could do way better.

And for those who dont think the intellivision can be pushed to those limits, just look at Thunder Castle or Tower of Doom.

Edited February 11, 2010 by jeremysart

[NE146]

Anyone who is in love with Donkey Kong enough to develop a whole new version on the 2600 can easily get their fix elsewhere.

 

Of course.. but those won't be on the Atari VCS.

 

I'd love to see an improved 2600 version. Always have.

[+save2600]

I think that's one of the main reasons. Another reason is that there are so many other platforms to play Donkey Kong on today, not to mention emulation of the original coin-op. Anyone who is in love with Donkey Kong enough to develop a whole new version on the 2600 can easily get their fix elsewhere.

Same was true about Lady Bug, Juno First (MAME at least), Pac-Man (gimme a break already and easy with the clones & variants!), Tetris, Aztec Challenge, Conquest of Mars, Colony 7, Burgertime (written for both 5200 & 7800 now), Space Invaders (like pac-man - c'mon guys!), Squish 'Em and maybe to a lesser extent - Medieval Mayhem, Gunfight, Defender and all the other "arcade" enhanced games people were not content with.

 

I'm not envisioning a 2600 version of DK with graphics as good as the Colecovision (surely not), but I truly believe the game needs an overhaul, scratch that - needs to be completely re-done for the VCS. Just to see how well it could be pulled off. This game, more than any other (even Pac-Man) has piqued my curiosity since it was first released. At least DK himself is on the proper side of the screen on the first level (unlike the CV version)... lol

 

Super Pac-Man would be another great game that would be nice to see on the VCS.

 

No, I'm not a programmer, but I just can't wrap my head around why people decided to pursue certain games than others. I love Ladybug, but it's just another dot muncher to me. DK being little more than a cute platform game has always appealed more so to me. I don't buy the excuse of "not being possible" or "nobody else is interested", cause I don't believe that's true. I do believe that the game has been overlooked however and perhaps, is beyond the capability of most of the homebrew "programmers" currently and I'm betting that's the real issue here.

Edited February 11, 2010 by save2600

[jaybird3rd]

Of course.. but those won't be on the Atari VCS.

 

I'd love to see an improved 2600 version. Always have.

Eh. I guess I don't understand what the point is. But then again, I'm somebody who isn't especially fond of the "let's do nothing but arcade ports" mindset among homebrewers, so perhaps I'm biased. Good for you if you do a decent 2600 arcade port and you manage to learn something from pushing the system in new ways, but after a certain point it's just more of the same old meatloaf.

 

But this issue has been debated before and I don't want to derail the thread. In my opinion, if you absolutely must have Donkey Kong on an Atari console, just play the Atari 7800 version: same cartridge, same joystick, same TV, and (if you already use a 7800 for 2600 games) same system. If the sound bothers you, which it will unless you're already deaf, just turn down the volume and play Buckner & Garcia's "Do The Donkey Kong" on a convenient stereo or MP3 player. Do all that and you've probably saved yourself months of development effort.

[VectorGamer]

will probably choose games that are a better fit for the 2600's abilities.

 

- KS

 

Games that have never been ported to any classic console like Death Race (NES version doesn't count as it is nowhere close to the original), Spiders, Magical Spot, Stratovox or Tazzmania.

 

I have seen posted here on the forums two versions of Death Race: one for the CV and the other for the 2600 but both of those projects have gone cold.

[VectorGamer]

 

Super Pac-Man would be another great game that would be nice to see on the VCS.

 

No, I'm not a programmer, but I just can't wrap my head around why people decided to pursue certain games than others. I love Ladybug, but it's just another dot muncher to me.

 

The guy that is writing Duck Attack started Super Pac-Man and if he can get the flicker fest resolved it looks outstanding.

 

Ladybug has a bit more substance then other dot munchers and when the game speeds up it has me on the edge of my seat.

[danwinslow]

Programming a complex game for the 2600 is extremely hard. Thats probably a big reason.

[NE146]

Eh. I guess I don't understand what the point is. But then again, I'm somebody who isn't especially fond of the "let's do nothing but arcade ports" mindset among homebrewers, so perhaps I'm biased. Good for you if you do a decent 2600 arcade port and you manage to learn something from pushing the system in new ways, but after a certain point it's just more of the same old meatloaf.

 

Yeah but see the point is really not to get new experiences or new games, or even to get a defacto Donkey Kong experience that you can get via mame or a port on a more advanced console (although that's always great). Rather, the entire point would be to see a nicer version of Donkey Kong on the 2600 In other words, "why not".

 

But this issue has been debated before and I don't want to derail the thread. In my opinion, if you absolutely must have Donkey Kong on an Atari console, just play the Atari 7800 version: same cartridge, same joystick, same TV, and (if you already use a 7800 for 2600 games) same system.

 

But that uses 7800 hardware, of course it's going to be better. Half the charm of the 2600 is seeing how cool people can make it using the systems limitations and what they can come up with..

 

Also, it DOESN'T have to super accurate. Case in point look at Cyrstal Castles. What an awesome port, and yet pretty far from the arcade version all in all. Had a real crappy version been made instead and people were talking about making a better one (obviously possible), would you say "Why bother with a 2600 version, if you want to play Crystal Castles, play the ATARI 800 XL/XE version or on Mame"?

[Godzilla]

if you search, you will find my mock ups for a better 2600 donkey kong (which may be a little optimistic, but I still think something close could be made.) and someone even started to write a basic kernel, it's in the thread, but it never got much further than that.

[+Random Terrain]

Did anyone post this link yet?

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/95686-any-donkey-kong-homebrews/

[e1will]

The guy that is writing Duck Attack started Super Pac-Man and if he can get the flicker fest resolved it looks outstanding.

 

Ladybug has a bit more substance then other dot munchers and when the game speeds up it has me on the edge of my seat.

 

If I were doing an improved DK, I think my first priority would be "first, do no harm." DK is one of those nice arcade ports that has absolutely no flicker, and several of the improvements discussed would require adding flicker to the game, which would be a turnoff for a lot of folks (myself included.) And the gameplay in the existing two screens is actually pretty decent, so I'd probably leave the two existing screens alone for fear of making them worse.

 

But I can think of some improvements that could be possible on the VCS without adding any flicker or otherwise degrading any existing elements of gameplay:

 

1. The title screen animation of Donkey Kong climbing the girders (skippable by pressing the fire button)

2. The "How high can you get?" interstitial between rounds (also skippable)

3. A nice-looking Kong sprite at the top of the game screens

4. "Kong climbing the ladder" animation for completing the 1st screen

5. "Kong falling down" animation for completing the 2nd screen

6. Close-to-original background music in the 2nd audio channel

7. "Got the hammer" background music

8. "Running out of time" background music

9. Mario death animation and sounds (also skippable)

10. Improved walking sound

11. 3rd screen (elevator stage) with those bouncy springy things

12. 4th screen (conveyor belt stage) complete with oil can (kinda like this) and pies

13. high-score-saving logic (assuming an attached AtariVox or SaveKey)

14. high-score display screen

15. colors closer to the arcade version

 

All of the above should fit comfortably in a 32k cart, and wouldn't really be too tough to program given a good disassembly of the original.

 

But as to the original question of why nobody's done this yet, I think it comes down to the likelihood of working for months to improve the game, and then hearing:

1. from the community that it still doesn't quite capture the arcade version, and/or

2. from Nintendo's lawyers.

 

Both possibilities are pretty depressing to contemplate, when one could have instead been spending those months on an original VCS game that has:

1. no arcade version expectations to live up to, and

2. no lawyers to worry about.

 

But it's definitely doable, IMO.

 

Of course, even if you did all 15 things above, some people would be turned off by the lack of multiple barrels and/or fireballs on the same scanline (which the arcade version has), the inability of the fireballs to chase you around, and the lack of the bonus items from the arcade version (hat, umbrella, purse). And if you did add those, you'd have to add flicker, which would turn off a whole other set of people (with possibly a lot of overlap of people turned off by both possibilities.)

 

So it seems to me like it would be a pretty thankless task. But you never know. Someone might just say "what the heck" and do it anyway.

 

--Will

[Rik]

I see no need for an improved DK for the 2600,why?there's already better versions on other various consoles you might have,although i admit it would be cool see the result.I actually like 2600 DK.I guess i see it this way because i do like 2600 DK the way it is.Dk for the 2600 is it's own unique version of the game. Then again not everyone owns several consoles that play the other versions of DK,and would like to see a better version for their only system,the 2600,so yeah a cool idea!

[Nateo]

I for one would love to see a re-done version of DK show up on the 2600. I really am quite surprised that there hasn't been one considering the other games which have received a do-over... I believe that seeing a 2600 playing an accurate version of DK would be to see the machine at it's greatest potential.

[rpgfaker]

P.S. I always thought that the Mario sprite was well don.

 

Me and my brother used to laugh at ol' banana nose. My only complaint with DK2600 was the hammer timing and lack of the pie factory other than that it's pretty good.