SHOOT'EM'UPS

[José Pereira]

Hello.

 

I've stop the LN3 MasterScreen remaking to see something on YouTube.

Something I even know what would be. And I came to MetalDust on C64.

Yes, to you that knows, this games uses an enhanced CPU running at 8Mhz.

 

 

This put me some questions:

 

"Forget 8Mhz, even at normal speed and this game could be almost the same? At a slow rate, similar in Speed to Armalyte, Enforcer,...?

 

C64 was the best machine with Shoot'em's. No arguments here. But I've always tried to see and with my thoughts if something could turn into A8, a little bit similar.

Normally we can get the 3PFs.+Backgr. Colours for the Ground (with some DLis. like that Demo by T.M.R.) and the back colour being PF3 (again, with possible DLIs.) and the Paralax Scrolling. With this it can be almost like C64 (majour areas only use 3colours) and the behind Paralax Colour in C64 are 1colour most of the times (on Hi-Resol., and this is impossible Hi-Resol. in A8, isn't it?). But DLIs and the Speed of the Game?

 

Now seeing that Ripper Demo and Multiplexing PMs:

In this Demo they use something like PM0&1 in Multicolour Mode (getting the third) colour for our ship and Multiplex PM2&3 for Enemy ships.

What can be done on pratical A8 game. I have some ideas:

1.)- Like Ripper, but how many can we create, in the time their cross the same Line (Turning one Off and the other On, like on Humanoid). It have to be very quickly, that it isn't eye detect.

And who are the "Guys" behind Ripper, many talk here about Multiplexing but why no one ever done any real Game like this ones on A8?

(T.M.R. that Demo, was just a Demo or are you planning/try something)

(PeteD at the begining, Enforcer... and late you've said you have something but was waiting to see T.M.R.'s one first, I think I've read this?)

(... others?

2.)- Can we use on Enemy Ships PF2,PM2,Ored PM2/PF2 / PF2,PM3,Ored PF2/PM3 / PF3,PM2,PF3OredPM2 and PF3,PM3,PF3OredPM3? Will this work in? Will we have number of Chars for this? And the Speed (The Scrolling and the Chars from the Ships at a different speed, but wasn't what they did on Zybex (SoftSprites here only...))?

3.)- If we use PM0/1 four our Ship (like on Ripper Demo), how to create a second Ship (in a 2Player Game)? Is it possible to Multiplex the 4PMs. or only two like they've done?

4.)- That "Ripper Demo" only worked because is a Vertical one, or it could be the same if it would be Horizontal?

 

 

Yes, it's so many (technical) questions, but I would like that this could start as a thread about this games.

Even I, and many others here, aren't programmers but would like to know from the coders what is or not possible in A8!

I don't want to know if you'r trying/doing/thinking of doing a this Game "kind of"!... O.K., if someone wants to say that is... and exchange some thoughts it would b great!...

 

 

I just want to listen/learn more from you...

WILL WE EVER GET A DECENT SHOOT ON A8?

 

 

Thanks and Greetings.

José Pereira.

[emkay]

 

 

WILL WE EVER GET A DECENT SHOOT ON A8?

 

 

 

 

Wrong question. We'd need coders who take a look beyond their own box. You see it in every project on the A8. Everyone stops creating software where the own needs were set.

Ok, it's better than nothing, but it also is like ..... erm... you know how it sounds to scratch the fingernail over a blackboard... to see how close this all is, but in real you can do nothing... because of the limits of the software, that do not exist on teh real machine.

 

And, well, Ripper. It is more than just a demo. It is playable including upgrades. But, yeah, what's really missing is some shooter with the right presentation and floating in gameplay.

[atariksi]

Hello.

 

I've stop the LN3 MasterScreen remaking to see something on YouTube.

Something I even know what would be. And I came to MetalDust on C64.

Yes, to you that knows, this games uses an enhanced CPU running at 8Mhz.

 

 

This put me some questions:

 

"Forget 8Mhz, even at normal speed and this game could be almost the same? At a slow rate, similar in Speed to Armalyte, Enforcer,...?

 

C64 was the best machine with Shoot'em's. No arguments here.

...

Ahm, there are arguments. It depends on many factors. For example, many prefer the Space Invaders and Defender on Atari 8-bit vs. other 8-bit platforms.

 

Regarding PMs, it's quite easy to do a 160*200*8 mode and have half the sprites left over on A8. Requires some knowledge of A8 hardware as Emkay states.

[TMR]

Something I even know what would be. And I came to MetalDust on C64.

Yes, to you that knows, this games uses an enhanced CPU running at 8Mhz.

 

20MHz on a 16-bit CPU with a large-ish RAM expansion behind it as well - i forget the overheads but it's significantly larger than a stock machine. A lot of that power is thrown at the large animations (the big asteroid that tears through part of the first level) and sampled soundtrack, but it's also leaning on the speed to get the sprite recycling going as cleanly as it does for bigger objects.

 

Normally we can get the 3PFs.+Backgr. Colours for the Ground (with some DLis. like that Demo by T.M.R.) and the back colour being PF3 (again, with possible DLIs.) and the Paralax Scrolling.

 

The best i've managed so far in character mode is splitting a single playfield colour every other scanline and interleaving sprite repositioning "on demand" into the gaps; that can currently handle a total of six enemy objects (video if it going

) but needs a lot of CPU time to process so there isn't a fat lot of grind left afterwards.

 

What can be done on pratical A8 game. I have some ideas:

1.)- Like Ripper, but how many can we create, in the time their cross the same Line (Turning one Off and the other On, like on Humanoid). It have to be very quickly, that it isn't eye detect.

 

Humanoid doesn't do anything complex, it just assigns two players and the missiles to the ship object and recycles the other two players used for enemies at fixed scanlines, using the same object to handle anything in that "zone" - the only reason it looks more complex is the shape of the objects are changed and this process doesn't help with games as complex as Ripper i'm afraid.

 

(i'm on a writing deadline and literally just "checking in" today, when i've got RG 75 out the way i'll be able to string proper sentences together. =-)

[Heaven/TQA]

Jason... finally got my Issue #73... good one again! still my fave mag... who cares about next gen mags...

[PeteD]

 

 

WILL WE EVER GET A DECENT SHOOT ON A8?

 

 

 

 

Wrong question. We'd need coders who take a look beyond their own box. You see it in every project on the A8. Everyone stops creating software where the own needs were set.

Ok, it's better than nothing, but it also is like ..... erm... you know how it sounds to scratch the fingernail over a blackboard... to see how close this all is, but in real you can do nothing... because of the limits of the software, that do not exist on teh real machine.

 

And, well, Ripper. It is more than just a demo. It is playable including upgrades. But, yeah, what's really missing is some shooter with the right presentation and floating in gameplay.

 

Then get your assembler out and start coding. There are people on here who claim to have all the knowledge about the A8 and yet have barely produced anything for it, then still complain when others have done.

 

 

Pete

[PeteD]

Hello.

 

I've stop the LN3 MasterScreen remaking to see something on YouTube.

Something I even know what would be. And I came to MetalDust on C64.

Yes, to you that knows, this games uses an enhanced CPU running at 8Mhz.

 

 

This put me some questions:

 

"Forget 8Mhz, even at normal speed and this game could be almost the same? At a slow rate, similar in Speed to Armalyte, Enforcer,...?

 

C64 was the best machine with Shoot'em's. No arguments here.

...

Ahm, there are arguments. It depends on many factors. For example, many prefer the Space Invaders and Defender on Atari 8-bit vs. other 8-bit platforms.

 

Regarding PMs, it's quite easy to do a 160*200*8 mode and have half the sprites left over on A8. Requires some knowledge of A8 hardware as Emkay states.

 

That depends what you class as *8 ?

 

*edit*

Of course I forgot I'm being ignored so there's little hope of that being answered but it's just the kind of meaningless post that winds me up. It's as if there's some magical "more colours" method that you can only know if you're the bastard son of some Atari employees when in reality it's probably something simple that is nowhere near as useful as it sounds and adds more complication to any "real world" application such as a game.

 

 

Pete

Edited February 12, 2010 by PeteD

[PeteD]

Urgh, can't edit now..

 

Anyway, for José here's as far as I got with my shoot-em-up before I decided I wanted to work on this PC app to do the level building, graphics conversion, animation etc etc (and TMR threatened to murder me if I did mine before he did his

 

The blobs and line are supposed to be bullets and a "toothpaste" laser but I ran into 128 char problems.

 

 

All graphics by Ste (STE 86) done back in the late 80s. The central part of the big monster, his "eye" opens and there's a lazer shooting thing inside

 

It'll have some more done to it eventually and there are a lot more graphics for it that Ste did, unfortunately they're more for ST/Amiga so need some colour reduction/rethinking done to them (something my app will help with).

 

 

Pete

[TMR]

Jason... finally got my Issue #73... good one again! still my fave mag... who cares about next gen mags...

 

i've almost literally just finished 75 bar the interview... i've been going since 8am and am so propped up on caffeine i can barely see straight right now! Me and deadlines usually collide at the last minute...

[TMR]

Anyway, for José here's as far as I got with my shoot-em-up before I decided I wanted to work on this PC app to do the level building, graphics conversion, animation etc etc (and TMR threatened to murder me if I did mine before he did his

 

S'funny, i'm not usually that violent... it wasn't just after a deadline was it?! If you want to go ahead y'might as well mate, right now i'm a bit soured about at least some of the A8 community so when i cycle back over to 8-bit code it'll probably be the C64 games that have been waiting for my attention since last year.

[PeteD]

Anyway, for José here's as far as I got with my shoot-em-up before I decided I wanted to work on this PC app to do the level building, graphics conversion, animation etc etc (and TMR threatened to murder me if I did mine before he did his

 

S'funny, i'm not usually that violent... it wasn't just after a deadline was it?! If you want to go ahead y'might as well mate, right now i'm a bit soured about at least some of the A8 community so when i cycle back over to 8-bit code it'll probably be the C64 games that have been waiting for my attention since last year.

 

It'll get resurrected at some point but I've definitely gotta do Fist when this app is done and I'm currently sidetracked by Paradroid Ste's really up for doing something 8 bit but he's not enamored by the A8, especially after hearing me curse it every 5 mins

 

 

Pete

[TMR]

S'funny, i'm not usually that violent... it wasn't just after a deadline was it?! If you want to go ahead y'might as well mate, right now i'm a bit soured about at least some of the A8 community so when i cycle back over to 8-bit code it'll probably be the C64 games that have been waiting for my attention since last year.

 

It'll get resurrected at some point but I've definitely gotta do Fist when this app is done and I'm currently sidetracked by Paradroid Ste's really up for doing something 8 bit but he's not enamored by the A8, especially after hearing me curse it every 5 mins

 

One of the advantages of doing my own graphics, i only have to listen to me cursing. =-)

[Mclaneinc]

Hey Jase, I'd really like to see a shootem up creation of yours on the Atari, all the C64 stuff you have done has been top quality. If you ever get the time push the old cpu boat out on it.

[TMR]

Hey Jase, I'd really like to see a shootem up creation of yours on the Atari, all the C64 stuff you have done has been top quality. If you ever get the time push the old cpu boat out on it.

 

Thanks mate, but right now it's an issue of motivation more than anything else; there are some right... erm, "experts" on this board, i could spend weeks getting something running and almost all the feedback would be the same as if i'd just spent a couple of lazy days just cloning Humanoid or something. In fact i did clone Humanoid at one point and have what is essentially a fully functioning if simple scrolling blaster knocking around my work files.

 

Thing is, i've been told that just about everything i've done on the

is "wrong" in some way but none of the people saying that seem to have actual code of a better alternative... it isn't exactly motivating.

[Wrathchild]

XeO3?

[Mclaneinc]

Hey Jase, I'd really like to see a shootem up creation of yours on the Atari, all the C64 stuff you have done has been top quality. If you ever get the time push the old cpu boat out on it.

 

Thanks mate, but right now it's an issue of motivation more than anything else; there are some right... erm, "experts" on this board, i could spend weeks getting something running and almost all the feedback would be the same as if i'd just spent a couple of lazy days just cloning Humanoid or something. In fact i did clone Humanoid at one point and have what is essentially a fully functioning if simple scrolling blaster knocking around my work files.

 

Thing is, i've been told that just about everything i've done on the

is "wrong" in some way but none of the people saying that seem to have actual code of a better alternative... it isn't exactly motivating.

 

Can't see what's wrong with the complex engine as a proof of work...

 

As you say it can't be motivating when people are knocking you....

[TMR]

XeO3?

 

Still workable as i said in t'other thread, just not a particularly easy job because it'll need quite a bit of reworking. Planning a new game around a sprite engine that's half software and half hardware would be the easier approach which is essentially where i was going with mine; the four players are multiplexed in pairs and thrown at the enemies whilst the player's ship will be a software sprite with the missiles as underlays (so it can clip over bits of the background without worrying about colour changes) and if there are resources left some simple character sprite objects can be added too.

 

Something that nobody has done so far which is surprisingly easy at least in theory would be assigning two players to the "stack" system that Humanoid has and the other two for a Lowca style "set piece" approach, just bolting a software sprite in for the player ship - if nasty motion is built around a scripting system, the limitations of each will be less obvious together.

[TMR]

Can't see what's wrong with the complex engine as a proof of work...

 

Oh it works fine and can refresh every frame if need be, although even with large blocks of the code unrolled it's still rather heavy on the CPU - the problem is that unless it's done the way certain people reckon it should be done it's not good enough...

[Mclaneinc]

Can't see what's wrong with the complex engine as a proof of work...

 

Oh it works fine and can refresh every frame if need be, although even with large blocks of the code unrolled it's still rather heavy on the CPU - the problem is that unless it's done the way certain people reckon it should be done it's not good enough...

 

 

Sad isn't it...

 

Just wait till Carmel gets on your case

 

That's when you know it's bad

[spookt]

Thing is, i've been told that just about everything i've done on the

is "wrong" in some way but none of the people saying that seem to have actual code of a better alternative... it isn't exactly motivating.

 

Well I for one (non Atari coder) think that the linked vid looks great. C'mon don't listen to the detractors, prove 'em wrong

[Heaven/TQA]

Hey Jase, I'd really like to see a shootem up creation of yours on the Atari, all the C64 stuff you have done has been top quality. If you ever get the time push the old cpu boat out on it.

 

Thanks mate, but right now it's an issue of motivation more than anything else; there are some right... erm, "experts" on this board, i could spend weeks getting something running and almost all the feedback would be the same as if i'd just spent a couple of lazy days just cloning Humanoid or something. In fact i did clone Humanoid at one point and have what is essentially a fully functioning if simple scrolling blaster knocking around my work files.

 

Thing is, i've been told that just about everything i've done on the

is "wrong" in some way but none of the people saying that seem to have actual code of a better alternative... it isn't exactly motivating.

 

no bad the video...

[xxl]

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-hyperblast_2540.html

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-caverns-of-mars-ii_7089.html

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-phobos_3942.html

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-gorf_6809.html

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-super-cobra_5157.html

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-space-eggs_4822.html

[MrFish]

http://www.atarimani...blast_2540.html

 

I agree, HyperBlast is a fun game. However, that repetitive noise that plays during each level is enough to drive one mad. The game also tends to get monotonous after a while.

[Shawn Jefferson]

Thing is, i've been told that just about everything i've done on the

is "wrong" in some way but none of the people saying that seem to have actual code of a better alternative... it isn't exactly motivating.

 

Well I for one (non Atari coder) think that the linked vid looks great. C'mon don't listen to the detractors, prove 'em wrong

 

Screw 'em! Just ignore their crap, or better yet, take the good ideas and use em, and ignore the ranting and unrealistic expectations. Unfortunately there will always be a few people criticizing, but if you look at all the games released lately, even the ones that got "advice" about the best way to do things on the Atari, you'll see that they were all supported by the 8-bit community with people buying and/or playing them! We are looking forward to any game that you might work on!