A new NES clone to play the powerpak

[Joe_Cracker]

Just for starters, one hasn't been made yet.

 

I'm not promoting or endorsing piracy but I am promoting and endorsing the development of new NES hardware and software but in this case hardware. I know that in one thread already I was the idea man but this time it should be you guys who put up the ideas. This should be where all the tech guys come out to play, there won't be any special deal put out, just the fact that you could make some money off the side by putting this thing up. The challenge is to make an NOAC that can play RetroZone's powerpak and at the same time have the most NES software compatibility out there. I know it's possible, we just need the know how to do it. Can it be done? I've tested the Retro Duo 2.0, it doesn't work so which one of you can make a better NOAC? One that can play the powerpak, for starters, you'll need to get your hands on a powerpak. The rest I'm leaving up to you.

 

Good luck.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Joe_Cracker

[godslabrat]

The NES PowerPak, much as I like the idea, isn't the dealbreaker for me. If I'm going to by a clone for $30 or more, I want FULL compatibility with all my NES games. No graphical glitches, no off-tone sounds, no 2 games out of 100 that don't play. NO. COMPATIBILITY. PROBLEMS. AT. ALL.

 

Why? Because for $50 or so, I could get a toaster NES and refurb it and have no problems to speak of. So, if I'm going to go for something only slightly cheaper, it would have to provide all the same benefits with none of the drawbacks.

 

HOWEVER, if someone were to make a system that was totally and completely indistinguishable from the original NES... I'd buy five of them. No joke.

[Austin]

I don't mind having ten or twenty games being incompatible so long as the system doesn't feel like a POS. Unfortunately the Retro DUO and the recent-model FC Twin units are crap: Iffy cart connectors, plastic-like controllers with virtually no diagonals, ugh. The pads on the Play n Trade FC Duals weren't bad, but unfortunately the two systems I had didn't want to work... Point is, over compatibility and extra features that aren't in current models, I'd prefer a dual system that is sturdy, reliable, and has proper controllers that work.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Austin

[unhuman]

I might be up for one that played games off a SD card.

 

I don't mind having ten or twenty games being incompatible so long as the system doesn't feel like a POS. Unfortunately the Retro DUO and the recent-model FC Twin units are crap: Iffy cart connectors, plastic-like controllers with virtually no diagonals, ugh. The pads on the Play n Trade FC Duals weren't bad, but unfortunately the two systems I had didn't want to work... Point is, over compatibility and extra features that aren't in current models, I'd prefer a dual system that is sturdy, reliable, and has proper controllers that work.

[+wood_jl]

I don't own any NES clones, and I personally don't see the need when you can just get a thrift store/Craigslist/Ebay *real* Nintendo, and an Ebay 72-pin connector and be done. I've done that a couple times and both times had EXCELLENT results for cheap. While I had the NES Toaster apart, I washed the case with a toothbrush and whitewall tire cleaner, and took off black marks with Coleman Camping Fuel. Several mintues in front of a fan to dry the case, then slap everything back together.....original NES that looks and works like new.

 

I guess if you're the type who doesn't want to open the NES (I can respect that) then the clone would be worthwhile. The 2 or 3-in-1 setups are interesting. But I gotta have my Zapper to plug in so it's a dealbreaker. Also don't care for the newer top-load NES because there's no A/V outs, can't stand RF (unless I have no choice) and they're too expensive. Original NES Toaster and a 5-pack of spare 72-pin connectors should get you through life.

[Joe_Cracker]

I don't own any NES clones, and I personally don't see the need when you can just get a thrift store/Craigslist/Ebay *real* Nintendo, and an Ebay 72-pin connector and be done. I've done that a couple times and both times had EXCELLENT results for cheap. While I had the NES Toaster apart, I washed the case with a toothbrush and whitewall tire cleaner, and took off black marks with Coleman Camping Fuel. Several mintues in front of a fan to dry the case, then slap everything back together.....original NES that looks and works like new.

 

I guess if you're the type who doesn't want to open the NES (I can respect that) then the clone would be worthwhile. The 2 or 3-in-1 setups are interesting. But I gotta have my Zapper to plug in so it's a dealbreaker. Also don't care for the newer top-load NES because there's no A/V outs, can't stand RF (unless I have no choice) and they're too expensive. Original NES Toaster and a 5-pack of spare 72-pin connectors should get you through life.

 

I have opened my old NES Toaster model to put in a refurbished motherboard but for everyone out there who wants to go this route, your limited to how many original NES that where produced and the number of them that still work. Now is anyone up to the challenge? One of you said that both the Retro Duo and FC Twin where crap so I guess you need to bring in someone who knows something about NOACs, and if whether or not the final product should be a duel console.

[godslabrat]

your limited to how many original NES that where produced and the number of them that still work. Now is anyone up to the challenge?

 

Sometime toward the end of the NES' lifespan, it was estimated that there was an NES in 1/3 of the homes in the US. I like those odds.

[Shawn]

Until you can show your warm to basic I don't think many people will take your project seriously.

[Joe_Cracker]

Shawn Sr. If you can write a mapper file for the powerpak to play MMC5 nes roms then you might get rid of the monkey that jumped on your back when you left that post. I'm talking games like Castlevania 3 and stuff.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Joe_Cracker

[tetrode kink]

Shawn Sr. If you can write a mapper file for the powerpak to play MMC5 nes roms then you might get rid of the monkey that jumped on your back when you left that post. I'm talking games like Castlevania 3 and stuff.

The fact that you didn't get Shawn Sr.'s reference says everything.

[Cliff Friedel]

I have one of the FC Twins heading to my house as I write. The main reason I bought it was space under the TV. I have 3 consoles under the TV right now and the wife is giving me the evil eye. With that in mind, I can give up a little compatibility if it means I can play NES and SNES games on the big TV and not piss off my wife at the same time. Also, I can't remember if the original NES used RF or not, but with the FC Twin, you get composite output, which means no box. For me, that makes it worth the $40 I paid.

 

It would be nice to have the flash carts as I am in the process of rebuilding my NES/SNES collection, so there isn't much to play right now. I also would like to homebrew games, so it would be nice for that too. Does RetroZone ever plan to make it work for those?

[Joe_Cracker]

I've found the answer, the ultimate NOAC that can play the powerpak. It's a very old NOAC and it was made for the SNES so it could play both NES and Famicom game carts, as well as SNES carts all in one system.

 

The claim is made here:

http://www.tototek.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1903&view=previous&sid=11a57cb3a589f8a8c41bafcd0d33c248

 

The device he is talking about is known as the Super 8: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_8_%28video_game_accessory%29

 

Now if someone can get their hands on one of these things and reverse-engineer it's NOAC, it could make the best NES/SNES duel console system on the market.

[Longhorn Engineer]

your limited to how many original NES that where produced and the number of them that still work.

 

If you keep thinking that the world is running out of NESes then no one is going to be taking you seriously. Remember they sold over 60million units. There isn't even that many NES clones in the world. We should be worried about running out of clones.

[Longhorn Engineer]

The device he is talking about is known as the Super 8: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_8_%28video_game_accessory%29

 

Now if someone can get their hands on one of these things and reverse-engineer it's NOAC, it could make the best NES/SNES duel console system on the market.

 

Super 8 still not perfect.

[Joe_Cracker]

 

If you keep thinking that the world is running out of NESes then no one is going to be taking you seriously. Remember they sold over 60million units. There isn't even that many NES clones in the world. We should be worried about running out of clones.

 

When did I say that the world is running out of NES's, now 60 Million out there. Your not counting the ones that are already in land fills, gutted, modded, done in ways to where they will never work properly again. I know that retrozone is happy that they got their SNES powerpak to play in SNES clones but. I would estimate that their are 51 million or less NES's out there that still work and 1 million of those will still work for the next 10 years depending on how their kept, 200 thousand have been brought back to life throw restorations so far.

 

There are two directions that can be taken to create a clone, the first is to build an NOAC clone that can play the powerpak and right now the Super 8 seems to be where we start but you got to get it to where it's NOAC won't need an SNES or an SNES clone to be playable, the second is much more complicated and that is to build new motherboards that can go into an old NES toaster model and work just as it did back in 1985, this one for sure would play the powerpak.

 

There is another problem, original software. The game carts, sometimes even in clones even if they are compatible they won't play that is because unlike the 72pin female connectors inside the NES, the male connectors on the game carts cannot be replaced and some where made out of metals that where down much easier. Retrozone employs on the powerpak, powerpak lite, as well all of their new NES titles new boards and their male connectors are made out of much harder element that is better designed to with stand where. Now the toaster model I have has a new 72pin connector as well as a restored motherboard but it still has it's problems. Now I'd like to be able to say that I can put a new motherboard inside but I guess that won't happen and if you could build new motherboards you have a limit of 60 Million, that is unless you can produce new shells.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Joe_Cracker

[Longhorn Engineer]

Pay me an engineering salary and I will make one.

[godslabrat]

When did I say that the world is running out of NES's, now 60 Million out there. Your not counting the ones that are already in land fills, gutted, modded, done in ways to where they will never work properly again. I know that retrozone is happy that they got their SNES powerpak to play in SNES clones but. I would estimate that their are 51 million or less NES's out there that still work and 1 million of those will still work for the next 10 years depending on how their kept, 200 thousand have been brought back to life throw restorations so far.

 

51 million NES systems... divided among a hobby which has... maybe 100,000 enthusiasts? I'm failing to see why I should rush out and stock up on viable systems.

 

There are two directions that can be taken to create a clone, the first is to build an NOAC clone that can play the powerpak and right now the Super 8 seems to be where we start but you got to get it to where it's NOAC won't need an SNES or an SNES clone to be playable, the second is much more complicated and that is to build new motherboards that can go into an old NES toaster model and work just as it did back in 1985, this one for sure would play the powerpak.

 

The problem you run into is, once you do the massive R&D required to design such a system, how do you propose to sell it at anything resembling a market price, that will still allow you to recoup your losses? Bear in mind that most of the people buying NOAC systems are simply wanting a little use out of the SMB/DH carts they have in their attics, and have NO CLUE about the existence of the PowerPak.

 

There is another problem, original software. The game carts, sometimes even in clones even if they are compatible they won't play that is because unlike the 72pin female connectors inside the NES, the male connectors on the game carts cannot be replaced and some where made out of metals that where down much easier.

 

Which metals would these be, may I ask? And what metals are used in Retrozone's carts?

[Joe_Cracker]

To answer your questions about the metals, you would have to ask Retrozone because from I can tell you upon inspection of the PowerPak, I noticed that the connectors on the gamecart reflected a little more light then a new cart for the NES would have new out of the box back in the 80's, it's somewhat like the metals used in PCI cards, like say a graphics card or a Firewire Card for your PC because the Male connectors on those things are highly reflective.

 

I'm not telling anyone to stock up on viable systems, the idea is to just get something on the market that is "easier to get your hands on." and much cheaper.

 

LongHorn, I have to break it to you. I'm not the guy who is going to be your employer, I'm the idea man. My advice to you is to do this on your own and reap the rewards, some potential profit plus something you can play yourself from time to time, but if you are going to get a Super 8, get a working NES so whatever you end up with, you can compare it to the original. My advice, don't make it look like any known console, make it look futuristic on the outside with a Retro feel like something out of the movie TRON.

 

Plus the guy who can answer my challenge will also get "direct from the manufactuar" purchases from the Console Game Builder Project as we hand out developer's kits with a PowerPak and all to CGB Licensed Developers.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Joe_Cracker

[Joe_Cracker]

Also, I don't know if any of you have seen this.

 

http://nesrommaker.wikispaces.com/

 

I also once said that there should be an NES NOAC clone that should have ATSC output, but I would go with HDMI as long as we can get some of the newer games being released on retrozone to have an optional 3D feature. I want you to look at this peace right here and look at the new mapper's section http://nesrommaker.wikispaces.com/beyondthenes and number 6 is the one you should look at.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Joe_Cracker

[godslabrat]

To answer your questions about the metals, you would have to ask Retrozone because from I can tell you upon inspection of the PowerPak, I noticed that the connectors on the gamecart reflected a little more light then a new cart for the NES would have new out of the box back in the 80's, it's somewhat like the metals used in PCI cards, like say a graphics card or a Firewire Card for your PC because the Male connectors on those things are highly reflective.

 

So, in other words, you are talking out of your ass. I'm not trying to be rude, but you are making a lot of assumptions based on how a little bit of metal shines. Carts are ridiculously durable. The failure rate on even the earliest carts is close to nil. If you're suggesting that our biggest challenge in preserving these games for the future is "corroded carts", then I'd say you need to research a little more. I wouldn't even place that problem in the Top 5.

 

LongHorn, I have to break it to you. I'm not the guy who is going to be your employer, I'm the idea man.

Which means exactly squat. Again, not being rude, but if all you've got are ideas, then you've got less than nothing. This isn't the first time we've talked about a 100% perfect repro NES. I've made a few posts to that effect myself, actually. The thing is, when you're coming from a position of not knowing the details of the project you're proposing, someone better knowledge will eventually come along and show you the flaws in your plan. At that point, you can either:

 

A) Find practical answers to those objections, and refine your original plan into a better one, or

B) Say "Never mind."

 

Joe, seriously, you don't seem like a half bad guy, but right now, saying "I advise someone to design a perfect NES clone that could sell for $19.99." is about as rational as me saying "I advise someone to figure out a way to port World Of Warcraft onto the Sega Genesis, and play it over XBAND." If you're going to run with an idea like that, you have to show us what you are bringing to the table. There's an entire pinned thread in the Homebrew forum discussing exactly this behavior on the software side of things. In short: we're glad to hear your ideas, but don't get too carried away until you can back them up.

 

 

Plus the guy who can answer my challenge will also get "direct from the manufactuar" purchases from the Console Game Builder Project as we hand out developer's kits with a PowerPak and all to CGB Licensed Developers.

 

This would be a good example of a place where you could back yourself up. First of all, who or what is the CGBP? Second, and WAY more importantly, what kind of cash do they have on hand to be buying all these PowerPaks and repro systems? Third, why does it make more sense for them to wait for a magical repro system to be designed, rather than just grab the bull by the horns and repro some original NES consoles off of craigslist?

 

Finally, if you're hell-bent on getting this system designed, why not take the cash CGBP *WOULD* have used to buy them and bankroll the R&D for the repro system? That way, not only would the project get started faster, but you'd have greater control over its direction and be able to set enforceable deadlines.

 

I have a lot of respect for your initiative and your motivations here. So as to not let them go to waste, I'd take a step back and ask yourself what your real goal is, out of all this? Then ask yourself, out of the resources at our disposal, what's the most practical way to achieve that?

[Joe_Cracker]

I am about to release a trailer on youtube that will get fans excited about NES Rom Maker. The 0.1 Beta, will be worth the wait. Also, godslablat, unless your the guy who is designing the NOAC clone system, don't put a retail price on it just yet but $20.00? I've seen a game on Retrozone being sold for $29.00 called "Battle Kid" and it's a brand new game that came out this year.

 

The real goal is to create a working development kit for people who want to make new games for the NES and then later consoles that followed it.

 

Plus, I told you as far as the male connectors on the new carts from Retrozone go, you have to ask them. I can't know what metals they coated with just by looking at them and how they differ from original carts. She shells are exactly the same but there in translucent colors and clear see-throw.

 

What I was telling Longhorn was exactly that, you don't to break it down and exaggerate the facts. Plus I got rid of CGB points because it's plain and simple "wasn't working." zero donations from the moment I started to the moment I ended the program. Plus the donations are for paying someone to design software, not hardware. Repo-Toaster model NES systems along with PowerPak can make good developer kits but so can PC and Mac based NES emulators. Plus whatever could be on the way from someone who answer's my challenge, the guy is going to get some of his consoles purchased directly from the manufacture and then to be sold in developer's kits.

 

Listen here godslabrat, unless you know this can be done, I suggest you say nothing from now on.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Joe_Cracker

[godslabrat]

Also, godslablat, unless your the guy who is designing the NOAC clone system, don't put a retail price on it just yet but $20.00?

 

Hey, you said it should be affordable. It's not that hard to buy an NES and refurb it for under $30. There are clone systems that sell for $15. If you mean for it to be affordable, it has to be affordable in relation to existing options. Please understand, this is why 100% compatible systems have yet to be designed... the margin they'd earn is probably too small to be worth it.

 

Plus, I told you as far as the male connectors on the new carts from Retrozone go, you have to ask them. I can't know what metals they coated with just by looking at them and how they differ from original carts. She shells are exactly the same but there in translucent colors and clear see-throw.

 

But you had already made a point to say that the metals on original carts were inferior, and the metals on retrozone carts are "better designed to stand wear" (FIFY). These are not exaggerations, these are your actual words. Now you tell us you don't know what metals they used. Well, if you don't know what metals were used, how can you know they stand up to use any better than the originals? What tests have you conducted? What evidence are you using? It's sounding an awful lot like you haven't thought this through.

 

 

 

What I was telling Longhorn was exactly that, you don't to break it down and exaggerate the facts. Plus I got rid of CGB points because it's plain and simple "wasn't working." zero donations from the moment I started to the moment I ended the program.

 

Ah, so you made this awesome offer to "direct buy" these clone systems, based on money you didn't have? Again, sounding like you haven't thought this through.

 

Listen here godslabrat, unless you know this can be done, I suggest you say nothing from now on.

 

Okay, so when confronted with the shortcomings of your strategy, you'd rather turn a deaf ear to reason, instead of finding a more logical solution. I can't imagine why people aren't rushing to write you checks.

[Joe_Cracker]

Okay, so when confronted with the shortcomings of your strategy, you'd rather turn a deaf ear to reason, instead of finding a more logical solution. I can't imagine why people aren't rushing to write you checks.

 

Because they all believe it can't be done, just like they thought things like cellphones, personal computers, the internet, e-mail, youtube, all that stuff that years ago people would have told you that it was impossible but I know that NES Rom Maker is possible just like a NOAC clone that can play the powerpak is possible too.

 

Unless I can get a software engineer to sign on, and say that they will get started once a certain ammount of money in donations has been raised, my best guess is that they won't even send me a penny.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Joe_Cracker

[Joe_Cracker]

Okay, so when confronted with the shortcomings of your strategy, you'd rather turn a deaf ear to reason, instead of finding a more logical solution. I can't imagine why people aren't rushing to write you checks.

 

Because they all believe it can't be done, just like they thought things like cellphones, personal computers, the internet, e-mail, youtube, all that stuff that years ago people would have told you that it was impossible but I know that NES Rom Maker is possible just like a NOAC clone that can play the powerpak is possible too.

 

Unless I can get a software engineer to sign on, and say that they will get started once a certain ammount of money in donations has been raised, my best guess is that they won't even send me a penny.

[Joe_Cracker]

Okay, so when confronted with the shortcomings of your strategy, you'd rather turn a deaf ear to reason, instead of finding a more logical solution. I can't imagine why people aren't rushing to write you checks.

 

Because they all believe it can't be done, just like they thought things like cellphones, personal computers, the internet, e-mail, youtube, all that stuff that years ago people would have told you that it was impossible but I know that NES Rom Maker is possible just like a NOAC clone that can play the powerpak is possible too.

 

Unless I can get a software engineer to sign on, and say that they will get started once a certain ammount of money in donations has been raised, my best guess is that they won't even send me a penny.