Doom 1.5?

[primeform]

3 of the most beautiful videos I've ever seen...

 

did you see videos that we havent?

[Zerosquare]

I would also love to see this but, as has already been stated, there won't be any legal route to releasing this.

Wouldn't it be possible to release the code without the game data, together with a program which would extract the data from game files provided by the user to build a cartridge image ? That way, people who own a copy of Doom 2 could legally play it, while others could play the levels from the freely available demo. DOOM (and other games) ports on other machines use this strategy, and I don't think there are legal problems in this case. Edited March 28, 2010 by Zerosquare

[+Mitch]

I would also love to see this but, as has already been stated, there won't be any legal route to releasing this.

Wouldn't it be possible to release the code without the game data, together with a program which would extract the data from game files provided by the user to build a cartridge image ? That way, people who own a copy of Doom 2 could legally play it, while others could play the levels from the freely available demo. DOOM (and other games) ports on other machines use this strategy, and I don't think there are legal problems in this case.

 

Exactly, an app to convert PC WAD files to JAG WAD files would be very nice.

 

Mitch

[kevincal]

Now if only there were in game music and the double barrelled shotgun it would be heaven! Ooh add the chaingunner baddies too! And while at it, add everything from Doom II. Easy right?

[Hyper_Eye]

Exactly, an app to convert PC WAD files to JAG WAD files would be very nice.

 

Mitch

 

If someone produced a tool that could do such a conversion then obviously there is no issue. There is only an issue if ID ip is being distributed. Injecting a legally owned wad somehow (after conversion if necessary) would be fine. I don't believe the wad that is running in those videos is truly doom2.wad though. He says in the description of one of the videos:

 

He's done most of the work on this with a hex editor & has had some luck finding the limits of the jag Doom engine.

 

Also, these levels are definitely Doom2 inspired but they are Doom1 in content. Every item and texture can be found in jagdoom as far as I can tell. In order for a release to be legal there has to be no commercial wad contained within at all which means that the game was built from the released code and no Jagdoom wad is in it. You have to be able to take your PC doom2.wad, convert it with the hypothetical tool, and then use it. I would love to learn that the ROM running in these videos contains doom2.wad but I don't believe that is the case. That doesn't mean it isn't possible. I think people are putting the cart before the horse though. We know very very little about what exactly the author of this work is doing. As matter of fact, we don't even know who the author is as the OP has clearly stated he is basically a proxy in this and he simply recorded video of himself playing the game as sent to him without having great knowledge about the work or even the game itself. It would be awesome if the person doing the actual work would come and give us some info about what we are seeing in the videos. That would certainly be the next sensible step and would come before Jag owners start signing up for carts.

 

Don't get me wrong. If all we ever saw from this was these videos I would still think this is awesome. Just seeing what Doom2 might look like on the Jag is cool and when I watch these videos it clearly conveys Doom2 with a Jagdoom feel.

[+LS650]

I just don't get excited over these "impending releases" anymore. We see such announcements all the time in the Jag scene, but very few ever come to fruition.

 

If anything ever comes of this I will be the first to thank the developers but I am not holding my breath...

[walter_J64bit]

sh3-rg is your friend going to add the missing DOOM 2 monsters like the Invisible demon, Cyberdemon and the Heavy weapon dude so on and so on, one other thing is the double-barreled shotgun going to be added too?

Edited March 28, 2010 by walter_J64bit

[sh3-rg]

sh3-rg is your friend going to add the missing DOOM 2 monsters like the Invisible demon, Cyberdemon and the Heavy weapon dude so on and so on, one other thing is the double-barreled shotgun going to be added too?

 

Sorry, that's not going to be possible. What he's doing here is essentially using what he's learned about the Jag Doom wad, taking Doom 2 level data, editing it to make it compatible with the Jag Doom we know & sticking it in there, similar kind of thing that 2600 people do when they work on existing games to make them do stuff they didn't originally. It's probably not exactly as easy as I made it sound but he said it's not that difficult - just using tools that are already out there & applying what he learned.

 

I just don't get excited over these "impending releases" anymore. We see such announcements all the time in the Jag scene, but very few ever come to fruition. If anything ever comes of this I will be the first to thank the developers but I am not holding my breath...

 

Well I'm not sure you could call him a developer as such, since he's essentially only showing us the results of (what I'd personally call) ROM hacking and level editing here, but even I got a bit excited about it & I'm not known for getting giddy about many 15 year old games. There is no impending release & he's not made any announcements as far as I know. As it stands there are now at least 3 current attempts to work on existing Jaguar Doom stuff & each interests me in different ways - what belboz is doing is by far the most interesting & advanced from what I can see & what he told me about it is very promising for all of us - I'd say it's worth getting excited about. So I'll remain positive, hopeful & a bit excited myself

 

As for this Doom 1.5 stuff, while the vast majority of Jag fans would probably be quite interested in taking a copy of the levels my mate has edited, converted & injected, it's probably quite wrong to even think about releasing it & it's been made clear that if it was even to leak out it wouldn't be long before iD (or, more correctly, ZeniMax Media) were pointed in the right direction & came looking for the 'culprit'... whether they could really be arsed about a few dozen fans playing level data from Doom II on a console probably none of them even know exists is open to debate, but I'm not interested in having that debate or giving any reason to have it - I'm just making videos of the results of someone else's work & that's the limit of my involvement. I suppose he could take it with him when he goes to the next JagFest, to show people what he's done in person, but that's up to him & depends if he even plans to visit another JagFest.

 

When I get a minute, what I'll do is make some more videos of the remaining levels he's converted (4 & 5 (6 seems almost right but there is a little gfx bug so I'll see if anything else turns up today) - last night I asked him how much more he was planning on doing & he said 'the whole of the first episode with hex editing' - at the time I didn't think what that might mean, but it seems like everything up to the first boss fight. So then I'll leave it up to him whether he wants to talk more about it himself or whatever (I'm getting quite behind with my own jag stuff tbh and can't really spare much of the little bit of free time I have left while there is still so much to do).

 

Hope that clears things up a bit & isn't too disappointing to some people. I suppose the last thing he wants is any kind of legal issues when all he wants to do is work on Jag Doom & show off some of the things he's learned about it so far with this Doom 1.5 as he calls it. I know he's been reading all your replies here & on other forums & appreciates the positive comments & the friendly suggestions/warnings

[the.golden.ax]

pshaw, I say release it anonymously or at bare minimum for Skunk / CD users. They couldn't possibly come after you for freeware fan made parody I used the word parody, just because that makes it legal.... just put a monkey at the very end and it becomes a parody. Someone with actual knowledge of law tell me if I'm wrong. I'd love a full sanctioned cart release. Playing it is a close second.

 

AX

[walter_J64bit]

It's just awesome to see the Jag doom get some TLC! How many levels are in Doom 2 first episode?

Edited March 31, 2010 by walter_J64bit

[T2KFREEKER]

sh3-rg is your friend going to add the missing DOOM 2 monsters like the Invisible demon, Cyberdemon and the Heavy weapon dude so on and so on, one other thing is the double-barreled shotgun going to be added too?

 

Sorry, that's not going to be possible. What he's doing here is essentially using what he's learned about the Jag Doom wad, taking Doom 2 level data, editing it to make it compatible with the Jag Doom we know & sticking it in there, similar kind of thing that 2600 people do when they work on existing games to make them do stuff they didn't originally. It's probably not exactly as easy as I made it sound but he said it's not that difficult - just using tools that are already out there & applying what he learned.

 

I just don't get excited over these "impending releases" anymore. We see such announcements all the time in the Jag scene, but very few ever come to fruition. If anything ever comes of this I will be the first to thank the developers but I am not holding my breath...

 

Well I'm not sure you could call him a developer as such, since he's essentially only showing us the results of (what I'd personally call) ROM hacking and level editing here, but even I got a bit excited about it & I'm not known for getting giddy about many 15 year old games. There is no impending release & he's not made any announcements as far as I know. As it stands there are now at least 3 current attempts to work on existing Jaguar Doom stuff & each interests me in different ways - what belboz is doing is by far the most interesting & advanced from what I can see & what he told me about it is very promising for all of us - I'd say it's worth getting excited about. So I'll remain positive, hopeful & a bit excited myself

 

As for this Doom 1.5 stuff, while the vast majority of Jag fans would probably be quite interested in taking a copy of the levels my mate has edited, converted & injected, it's probably quite wrong to even think about releasing it & it's been made clear that if it was even to leak out it wouldn't be long before iD (or, more correctly, ZeniMax Media) were pointed in the right direction & came looking for the 'culprit'... whether they could really be arsed about a few dozen fans playing level data from Doom II on a console probably none of them even know exists is open to debate, but I'm not interested in having that debate or giving any reason to have it - I'm just making videos of the results of someone else's work & that's the limit of my involvement. I suppose he could take it with him when he goes to the next JagFest, to show people what he's done in person, but that's up to him & depends if he even plans to visit another JagFest.

 

When I get a minute, what I'll do is make some more videos of the remaining levels he's converted (4 & 5 (6 seems almost right but there is a little gfx bug so I'll see if anything else turns up today) - last night I asked him how much more he was planning on doing & he said 'the whole of the first episode with hex editing' - at the time I didn't think what that might mean, but it seems like everything up to the first boss fight. So then I'll leave it up to him whether he wants to talk more about it himself or whatever (I'm getting quite behind with my own jag stuff tbh and can't really spare much of the little bit of free time I have left while there is still so much to do).

 

Hope that clears things up a bit & isn't too disappointing to some people. I suppose the last thing he wants is any kind of legal issues when all he wants to do is work on Jag Doom & show off some of the things he's learned about it so far with this Doom 1.5 as he calls it. I know he's been reading all your replies here & on other forums & appreciates the positive comments & the friendly suggestions/warnings

 

 

So, how far along is this project anyway> It's interesting to see that DOOM II might finally make an appearance on the Jaguar CD. Would be nice if your buddy could also pop in the musicla score there as well, -kza-. Too bad the original Jaguar DOOM didn't support the music though or it might have been easy. You'd have to write it all from scratch though.

[sh3-rg]

So, how far along is this project anyway

 

he's converted (4 & 5 (6 seems almost right but there is a little gfx bug so I'll see if anything else turns up today)

 

It's interesting to see that DOOM II might finally make an appearance on the Jaguar CD.

 

I know it's now technically April Fools Day, but I'm not sure we'll ever see any 4mb ROM running from CD It might be possible that someone could rework the Doom code to run from CD but that's for someone else to consider & wouldn't be Doom II or even Doom 1.5

 

Would be nice if your buddy could also pop in the musicla score there as well, -kza-. Too bad the original Jaguar DOOM didn't support the music though or it might have been easy. You'd have to write it all from scratch though.

 

Hmm, I thought Jag Doom did have [some kind of bastardised midi] music playing in between levels & was also supported in-game by a switch in the code when the game was built... so I'd hazard a guess it is possible without doing everything form scratch. I don't think the music stuff is important to what he's doing with this though, it's more about stressing the JagDoom engine & seeing where it can be taken.

 

But like I said, I've nothing new to add to this topic now other than to say when the vids are up. I'll have a go at level 4 now & post it if it comes out OK.

 

EDIT: midi

[philipj]

If the midi files are available, it could be possible to find a synthesized solution to adding music to the game. The Jag is in much need of a music player that plays more than four channels for music and four channels for sound fx.

Edited April 1, 2010 by philipj

[sh3-rg]

level 4 up, sorry, I cheated

[Hyper_Eye]

Well... what was being done turned out to be exactly what I described. It is the jagdoom wad edited. I am pretty impressed with the amount of changes though considering this wasn't done with a wad editor but instead direct editing of the rom. That must have been a considerable amount if work. Anyway, I am certainly enjoying the videos but people should stop talking about a release. People should especially stop talking about disregarding the law to make a release. That would definitely look bad on the Jag community.

[JagChris]

Its fun to watch even if it never gets released.

[Hyper_Eye]

The map04 video rocks. That is one of my favorite Doom2 levels and it translated really well. Makes me wish the Jag would have done better so Id might have made Doom2 on the Jag happen.

[Video]

Nice, I believe the problem with the outside is there isn't a graphic for it (or so the system thinks) so it's just filling the "blank space" with whatever was in that space last. I bet if a BG was provided for it, it would work fine.

 

Other than that, awesome. I can't wait for a Doom2 for the Jag, I'll be first in line to get one....

 

To whoever takes that on, Please include support for the Propad (to use the Land R for straifing if nothing else)

[primeform]

Well... what was being done turned out to be exactly what I described. It is the jagdoom wad edited. I am pretty impressed with the amount of changes though considering this wasn't done with a wad editor but instead direct editing of the rom. That must have been a considerable amount if work. Anyway, I am certainly enjoying the videos but people should stop talking about a release. People should especially stop talking about disregarding the law to make a release. That would definitely look bad on the Jag community.

 

[Hyper_Eye]

 

Oh look I can do it too!

 

 

And it adds just as little to the conversation when I do it.

[ovalbugmann]

Wouldn't it be possible to release the code without the game data, together with a program which would extract the data from game files provided by the user to build a cartridge image ? That way, people who own a copy of Doom 2 could legally play it, while others could play the levels from the freely available demo. DOOM (and other games) ports on other machines use this strategy, and I don't think there are legal problems in this case.

 

Hellz Yeah, AARepz 1up for you Zero, this is exactly what we need. I have all the released Official PC Doom games already, it would be great to just use the DoomII wad, that I can plainly see in the discs' directory and use it with a Jag app to build a Jag DoomII image, level by level, to run.

 

Exactly, an app to convert PC WAD files to JAG WAD files would be very nice.

 

Mitch

 

That's it!, that's what we need - then as ZS said people that have an original Doom II could make their own Jag game of it.

[ovalbugmann]

I'd love to see Doom 2 and Final Doom come to Jag, maybe even some of the popular map packs out there.

 

AX

 

+1 . With those two that would make three Doom games on the Jag. And if any older Doom wad could be edited for the Jag, then some of the DoomII level design/editing programs or already built map packs out there could be used to make your own Jag DoomII wads with some available map packs or your own custom designs. I've got a few of them for the PC that use/alter the DoomII wad.

 

Anyone who sees that video and doesn't get wood is not a Jag fan.

 

+1

Edited April 4, 2010 by ovalbugmann

[belboz]

Something like that would be possible, but there may be a reason id (and their parent company) might not like it.

 

Replacements for the Doom engine like zdoom and others work with the original Doom WAD files unmodified. To do it on the Jag you would need to take that original copyrighted WAD file for the PC and and change it into something compatible with Jaguar Doom. Which would be modifying copyrighted work.

 

The id license for Doom/Doom 2 specifically states that you can only use the software on one PC. But the big stickler is they specifically prohibit modification of Doom and Doom 2.

 

Now obviously the GPL software can be modified and sold or whatever (you just have to honor the GPL). But they never released their copyright on the assets. So it would seem that the WAD file is the only real licensing issue when it comes to Doom games since the engine has been GPL'ed.

 

The big thing is that someone can make their own total conversions (do all their own assets) and sell or give away that work to the Jag community. So the door is wide open for Jaguar Doom based stuff, just not Doom II, or Ultimate Doom.

 

Carmack has been pretty good to the community when it comes to all the code he has GPL'ed. Would hate to see this community do something to upset his and id's good will.

 

Now if there is someone in the Jag community who wants to work on a total conversion, I would be happy to talk with them about using my tools to convert it to the Jaguar.

[carmel_andrews]

Belboz...Couldn't you do what is classed as a 'jaguar inspired' Doom wad, that way the originators of the game can't cite you over any legal issues , since you are not using any of their code, map/level data etc

[belboz]

Well the code is GPL'ed. So someone can use it as is, or modify it to suit their needs. They can sell it, give it away,etc. Only issue with the code is that because it is GPL'ed you have to release your source code to anyone you distribute the title too (if they want it).

 

Now if a developer didn't want to do that they would have to rewrite their own Doom like engine from scratch. Not using any code from the Doom source.

 

But really the only issue is the WAD. id Software has opened up the code, but not the assets in the WAD (levels, textures, sprites, sounds, music,etc). So all someone has to do is like vi and I are doing with Death Tongue, which is do all your own assets. The only piece of Doom we will be using is the Doom engine itself.

 

The license Doom and Doom 2 and ultimate Doom are distributed under forbids modification of the game. This doesn't allow someone to modify a WAD from those titles (even the Doom demo). So this doesn't permit someone making a utility that modifies the PC Doom WAD and converts it into Jaguar format.

 

However you can take the PC Doom WAD and use it with a different front end. ala zdoom gldoom, etc. That is allowable because you are not modifying the WAD in any format. Your using it as is.

 

Problem is the Jagaur Doom doesn't use that WAD format. So you are basically forced to create 100% your own content (WAD). I guess someone could try rewriting the Jaguar Doom code so it works with the PC Doom WAD format. Then you would avoid the WAD modification and be no different than all the ports of Doom out there that support the normal WAD format (gp2x version, Atari Falcon version, Amiga, etc). But that would be some work.

 

I don't really see the big issue though. If someone wants to release a Doom based title for the Jaguar, just do your own assets and make something cool and new. The Doom source is available to you. The possibilities are endless.

 

 

 

Belboz...Couldn't you do what is classed as a 'jaguar inspired' Doom wad, that way the originators of the game can't cite you over any legal issues , since you are not using any of their code, map/level data etc