My Air Raid Auction Update

[Dino]

 

I'm not missing anything. Your distinction is arbitrary, which was my point.

 

Its not arbitrary, but very simple. Physically altering any component is a no-no, even if the end result looks the same. Putting a cart in a different box does not fall within this category.

[Zap!]

Are you serious? Top of the line classic cars here (fords and Chevvys typically sell for between $250k-$1m. The engines alone are worth much more than $30k

 

Yes I'm serious. Do you not know the meaning of the word "most" or did you simply choose to ignore that I used it?

No, I saw it, but still disagree.

 

The word "classic" is used by sellers to describe old cars in the same way as "ULTRA RARE L@@K" is used to describe Combat carts on Ebay. Not every old car is a "classic". For a car to be a classic it requires, amongst other things, some sort of appeal, desire, performance, features etc. It is for this reason that a Hyundai, no matter how old, will never be a classic. The condition is also important. A '65 Mustang GT may be a classic model, but looking at some of the examples that are on offer, they can hardly be described as classic.

 

Therefore, most of the true classic cars, GT500, Dinos, Stingtrays, Porsches, etc, etc, would sell for over $30k, at least around my parts anyway.

 

Yes and no. I had a 1977 Trans Am. It wasn't in the best condition at all, but had the bird on the hood and decent paint. I'd call it a classic, even though the value was under 5k.

[MaximRecoil]

No, I saw it, but still disagree.

 

That doesn't change the fact that your reply was a straw man.

 

The word "classic" is used by sellers to describe old cars in the same way as "ULTRA RARE L@@K" is used to describe Combat carts on Ebay. Not every old car is a "classic". For a car to be a classic it requires, amongst other things, some sort of appeal, desire, performance, features etc. It is for this reason that a Hyundai, no matter how old, will never be a classic. The condition is also important. A '65 Mustang GT may be a classic model, but looking at some of the examples that are on offer, they can hardly be described as classic.

 

Therefore, most of the true classic cars, GT500, Dinos, Stingtrays, Porsches, etc, etc, would sell for over $30k, at least around my parts anyway.

 

You can watch classic car auctions all night long on cable, and most of them sell for under $30K.

 

Also, you are not the ultimate arbiter of what counts as "true" with regard to "classic". By general consensus, "muscle cars" and "pony cars" fall into the "classic car" category, and those are a very popular class of "classic car", and all but the extreme upper echelon of those (e.g. Hemi cars) tend to sell for under $30K (the same applies to most classic car categories).

[MaximRecoil]

Its not arbitrary, but very simple. Physically altering any component is a no-no, even if the end result looks the same. Putting a cart in a different box does not fall within this category.

 

It may be simple, but it is still arbitrary. Why don't you ask yourself why "physically altering any component is a no-no, even if the end result looks the same"? Once you explain that, compare it to the results of putting a cartridge in a different box. Given that the reasoning which leads to the conclusion that "physically altering any component is a no-no, even if the end result looks the same", logically leads to the conclusion that swapping boxes is a "no-no" as well; making a distinction between them (in the form of one being a "no-no" and the other being okay) = arbitrary.

Edited April 28, 2010 by MaximRecoil

[nofrills100]

Personally I don't see any problem with swapping the box, although I reckon I'd keep them together as there is quite cool story attached to them now.

But all Air Raids once came in a box. Not a unique box from one another - the same box as all the other 24(?). To take one out and put in another, is merely reversing the original decision to put it in that particular box and not the box next to it. It was an arbitrary decision to put it in that particular box, and there was nothing to indicate that it should remain together with that box either, no matching numbers or colour code or bindings. Aside from all of this it really is a trivial point, does it really affect he history of the game, the value, or the validity of it?

Replacing a label, or a casing, or a board might be something else, but again they too are not generally matching in numbers, and it was an arbitrary pairing of the components to begin with anyway.

As for classic cars I would say that there are many 'vintage' cars under 30k but not many 'classic' cars under. I guess it comes down to the definition of 'classic' - generally meaning 'of the highest class' and 'typical, excellent as an example; timeless' and then what one personally would assign that term towards. Some might say a Corvette is a classic car, but others will disagree etc..

[Zap!]

But all Air Raids once came in a box. Not a unique box from one another - the same box as all the other 24(?).

 

That is yet to be determined. There may have been two boxes. Here's a possible variation, From The 2600 #8:

[nofrills100]

But all Air Raids once came in a box. Not a unique box from one another - the same box as all the other 24(?).

 

That is yet to be determined. There may have been two boxes. Here's a possible variation, From The 2600 #8:

 

I won't be holding my breath

[Zap!]

But all Air Raids once came in a box. Not a unique box from one another - the same box as all the other 24(?).

 

That is yet to be determined. There may have been two boxes. Here's a possible variation, From The 2600 #8:

 

I won't be holding my breath

 

I wonder how much a box that "opens like a book" would fetch if found!

Edited April 28, 2010 by White Knight

[misspent_youth]

I think to carry on in the classic (or should I say "classic") car analogy, switching the cart for a better looking one could be analogous to switching out the beat up seats on a car. The seats aren't numbers matched, and it's just that wee bit more impressive when you can say 'all original' and mean it. However, it's only impressive if you can say it and the car looks good. Honestly, I don't follow classic car auctions very closely but I'd be surprised if swapping out the seats with a better condition (but still OEM) set affected the value in any appreciable manor. I'd rather have nice looking seats than keep the beaters just to say the car is all original.

[Dino]

No, I saw it, but still disagree.

 

That doesn't change the fact that your reply was a straw man.

 

The word "classic" is used by sellers to describe old cars in the same way as "ULTRA RARE L@@K" is used to describe Combat carts on Ebay. Not every old car is a "classic". For a car to be a classic it requires, amongst other things, some sort of appeal, desire, performance, features etc. It is for this reason that a Hyundai, no matter how old, will never be a classic. The condition is also important. A '65 Mustang GT may be a classic model, but looking at some of the examples that are on offer, they can hardly be described as classic.

 

Therefore, most of the true classic cars, GT500, Dinos, Stingtrays, Porsches, etc, etc, would sell for over $30k, at least around my parts anyway.

 

You can watch classic car auctions all night long on cable, and most of them sell for under $30K.

 

Also, you are not the ultimate arbiter of what counts as "true" with regard to "classic". By general consensus, "muscle cars" and "pony cars" fall into the "classic car" category, and those are a very popular class of "classic car", and all but the extreme upper echelon of those (e.g. Hemi cars) tend to sell for under $30K (the same applies to most classic car categories).

I has stated that most classic cars here sell for more than $30k. I cannot comment on what happens in the 'States as I don't follow the market there. But if that's the case, then someone could make a pretty penny selling GT500s and other upper echelon muscle and pony cars in Australia for a handsome profit, as they all sell for well over $30k. A 65 GT500 would clear over $100k EASILY...

[nofrills100]

I think to carry on in the classic (or should I say "classic") car analogy, switching the cart for a better looking one could be analogous to switching out the beat up seats on a car. The seats aren't numbers matched, and it's just that wee bit more impressive when you can say 'all original' and mean it. However, it's only impressive if you can say it and the car looks good. Honestly, I don't follow classic car auctions very closely but I'd be surprised if swapping out the seats with a better condition (but still OEM) set affected the value in any appreciable manor. I'd rather have nice looking seats than keep the beaters just to say the car is all original.

 

yeah i agree

[Dino]

Its not arbitrary, but very simple. Physically altering any component is a no-no, even if the end result looks the same. Putting a cart in a different box does not fall within this category.

 

It may be simple, but it is still arbitrary. Why don't you ask yourself why "physically altering any component is a no-no, even if the end result looks the same"? Once you explain that, compare it to the results of putting a cartridge in a different box. Given that the reasoning which leads to the conclusion that "physically altering any component is a no-no, even if the end result looks the same", logically leads to the conclusion that swapping boxes is a "no-no" as well; making a distinction between them (in the form of one being a "no-no" and the other being okay) = arbitrary.

 

ha ha ha!! If you can give me a logical explanation as to why some dingbat (no offence to Jose intended) would spend $31k for a crappy Taiwanese pirate hack Atari game from the 1980s, then I will answer your question

 

In fact, your question is not for me to answer. You and Homer stated that in the comic book world swapping the cover reduces the value drastically. My statement was that by swapping a cover, you have to alter the comic components itself, which is more drastic that swapping the cart only. Changing the cover on a comic would be akin to exchanging the label on a cart, which, again, is much more drastic than just swapping carts. That's how I came to my conclusion. As to the impact on value, only a fool would consider that there was an impact on value in either circumstance. But then again, only a fool would pay more than 25c for either an Atari cart or an old comic Put that question in your national census and I bet 99% of the population would agree

[CPUWIZ]

I wonder how much a box that "opens like a book" would fetch if found!

 

Hmmm.

[Dino]

I wonder how much a box that "opens like a book" would fetch if found!

 

Hmmm.

I see some fancy work is on the cards from Shyone

[Lendorien]

Hm. Interesting discussion. I do think that the box and cart should be kept together, but at the same time, I can see the other argument and see it as valid too.

 

I've been trying to think of a good analogy and the only one I can come up with is books. If you have two rare books of the same title and edition, one with a ripped bookcover but a perfectly preserved book and another with a foxed and discolored book but a perfect book cover, would it decrease the value of the books to swap the perfect cover over to the perfect book? Of course not. In fact, it would increase the value of the now perfect complete book dramatically, and no-one would care that the covers had been switched when they bought it.

 

The only distinction here is that Air Raid CIB is a one of a kind item with a history that makes it unique all of its own. The question is, does that "history" add to its value? Or is it the box's uniqueness that gives it its true value?

 

In this case, I think that the value would remain the same regardless of which cart is in the box. The cart helped, but the box was the true value of the auction because it was utterly unique. Even without the cart, I suspect it would have sold for nearly as much as it did minus a few thousand.

 

Still, as a lover of history, I do think it would be nice to keep the originals together, if only for their historical value and history. It's sort of like replacing the box of a game that was given to you by your deceased grandfather. Sure you could do it, and some may feel that the box isn't important, but others of us would never replace the box because of its history.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Lendorien

[Dino]

If you have two rare books of the same title and edition, one with a ripped bookcover but a perfectly preserved book and another with a foxed and discolored book but a perfect book cover, would it decrease the value of the books to swap the perfect cover over to the perfect book? Of course not. In fact, it would increase the value of the now perfect complete book dramatically, and no-one would care that the covers had been switched when they bought it.

 

That's not Homer's point (and MaximRecoil's). Their point is that, based on the comic book world, it would reduce the value compared to another copy because its not the original cover of the book.

[GameGirl420]

Just like to say this has been a very entertaining thread to read. I was present in the chat room when the bidding ended..... sounds like a really awesome holy grail of gaming. Heck,if I had the money I'd like one of these Air raid games too lol,I mean why not...

[DickNixonArisen]

The cover is never meant to come off of the comic book, while the cartridge is surely meant to come out of the box... that's one issue. Switching the box affects the provenance only if the potential buyers think so.

 

A better comparison than cars is found in firearm collecting - while some models of US issue rifles are to be found with all matching serials, indicating they're complete, others never had matching parts even once in their existence. This is due to the usage of surplus parts during manufacturing. On weapons like that, it's perfectly fine with a collector that the serials don't match exactly as long as the parts are all from the same era - that is to say, the serials fit into a range of numbers which indicate the parts are contemporary to each other. Some collectors don't even care if the seller assembled the rifle himself from spare parts - as long as the parts all "belong" together based on being in the right range for each other, it's considered original. Now if a given gun was never made with mixed parts, and one was found with mixed parts, it would have a much lower value.

 

Air raid is crazy rare enough that having the box and the game is plenty without really caring whether the box and game were originally the exact box and exact game - since there are no matching numbers or other indicator that they are inseparable, there are no matching parts on air raid - it was never issued with boxes that match only one cart.

Edited April 28, 2010 by DickNixonArisen

[Rom Hunter]

Hm. Interesting discussion. I do think that the box and cart should be kept together, but at the same time, I can see the other argument and see it as valid too.

 

I've been trying to think of a good analogy and the only one I can come up with is books. If you have two rare books of the same title and edition, one with a ripped bookcover but a perfectly preserved book and another with a foxed and discolored book but a perfect book cover, would it decrease the value of the books to swap the perfect cover over to the perfect book? Of course not. In fact, it would increase the value of the now perfect complete book dramatically, and no-one would care that the covers had been switched when they bought it.

 

The only distinction here is that Air Raid CIB is a one of a kind item with a history that makes it unique all of its own. The question is, does that "history" add to its value? Or is it the box's uniqueness that gives it its true value?

 

In this case, I think that the value would remain the same regardless of which cart is in the box. The cart helped, but the box was the true value of the auction because it was utterly unique. Even without the cart, I suspect it would have sold for nearly as much as it did minus a few thousand.

 

Still, as a lover of history, I do think it would be nice to keep the originals together, if only for their historical value and history. It's sort of like replacing the box of a game that was given to you by your deceased grandfather. Sure you could do it, and some may feel that the box isn't important, but others of us would never replace the box because of its history.

Well said.

 

Also, it's save to assume that the carts were all made at the same time.

 

To use your book analogy, it's not a first print book that's being replaced by a second print one.

 

If that was the case, then it's a completely different story.

 

[Dino]

I suspect it would have sold for nearly as much as it did minus a few thousand.

 

I bet it would have sold for the same amount The buyers had their sights set on that box alone. Air raid carts are easilty had, but that box is a one-of-a-kind. Its ironic that Wonder007 chose to sell Tanman's cart. Tanmac could have mande another $4k had he listenend to me

[iwan-iwanowitsch-goratschin]

Its ironic that Wonder007 chose to sell Tanman's cart.

 

 

Yup.....the box was the home for this cart for nearly 30 years.............I could not do that......

 

As Lendorien said they should kept toether!

[MaximRecoil]

I has stated that most classic cars here sell for more than $30k. I cannot comment on what happens in the 'States as I don't follow the market there. But if that's the case, then someone could make a pretty penny selling GT500s and other upper echelon muscle and pony cars in Australia for a handsome profit, as they all sell for well over $30k. A 65 GT500 would clear over $100k EASILY...

 

The upper echelon cars do sell for over $30K, but most classic cars are not on the short list of most desired. For example, few people would argue that a 1968 Plymouth Road Runner with a 383 is not a classic car, but those can easily be found in nice original condition or mint restored condition for under $30K. However, if you want a Hemi version, it will be a lot more. If you want a '71 Hemi 'Cuda convertible, they will be more still; because not only are they classic, but they are extremely rare (something like 8 of them made).

 

 

 

ha ha ha!! If you can give me a logical explanation as to why some dingbat (no offence to Jose intended) would spend $31k for a crappy Taiwanese pirate hack Atari game from the 1980s, then I will answer your question

 

That's a red herring.

 

In fact, your question is not for me to answer. You and Homer stated that in the comic book world swapping the cover reduces the value drastically.

 

I never said anything about the comic book world. I don't even know much about the comic book world; but Homer's claim makes sense, given that originality is desireable in pretty much all forms of collecting.

 

My statement was that by swapping a cover, you have to alter the comic components itself, which is more drastic that swapping the cart only. Changing the cover on a comic would be akin to exchanging the label on a cart, which, again, is much more drastic than just swapping carts. That's how I came to my conclusion.

 

Just saying "drastic" is still arbitrary. The reason it is frowned upon is because it is not original. You end up with the same situation when you swap cartridges/boxes; i.e., not original.

 

As to the impact on value, only a fool would consider that there was an impact on value in either circumstance. But then again, only a fool would pay more than 25c for either an Atari cart or an old comic Put that question in your national census and I bet 99% of the population would agree

 

Whether you or I personally see value in an Atari cartridge or comic book is irrelevant; and as such, this is another red herring.

 

The cover is never meant to come off of the comic book, while the cartridge is surely meant to come out of the box... that's one issue. Switching the box affects the provenance only if the potential buyers think so.

 

A better comparison than cars is found in firearm collecting - while some models of US issue rifles are to be found with all matching serials, indicating they're complete, others never had matching parts even once in their existence. This is due to the usage of surplus parts during manufacturing. On weapons like that, it's perfectly fine with a collector that the serials don't match exactly as long as the parts are all from the same era - that is to say, the serials fit into a range of numbers which indicate the parts are contemporary to each other. Some collectors don't even care if the seller assembled the rifle himself from spare parts - as long as the parts all "belong" together based on being in the right range for each other, it's considered original. Now if a given gun was never made with mixed parts, and one was found with mixed parts, it would have a much lower value.

 

U.S. Military armorers had a habit of disassembling a large quantity of like firearms, dumping all of the parts into a bin of cleaning solution, and then randomly putting them back together without regard for which parts went together originally. Using the M1911A1 as an example, you would often wind up with a e.g., Remington Rand slide on a Colt frame; and perhaps an Ithaca barrel ... you could even end up with something like an M1911A1 slide on an M1911 frame; either by the same or different manufacturers. In any event, an all original M1911 or M1911A1 without mix n' match parts is far more valuable.

 

Air raid is crazy rare enough that having the box and the game is plenty without really caring whether the box and game were originally the exact box and exact game - since there are no matching numbers or other indicator that they are inseparable, there are no matching parts on air raid - it was never issued with boxes that match only one cart.

 

We don't need anything to indicate that the game and box belong together; we already know because the whole story is a matter of public record now. We have good quality pictures of Tanman's box and cartridge and we know that he bought them together as a kid. And now we know (I think?) that they have now been separated by the new owner.

[Frostbite Bailey]

I would send them to Cpuwiz to start his fire

 

Pfffft, Jose already got rid of the non-matching box.

[jahfish]

from jose's perspective, it totally makes sense to swap the carts. he is opening a museum soon, so it is in his interest to display air raid in the nicest possible condition.

 

(i do the same thing for my games, exchange boxes if i find nicer ones just to be able to display a nice and shiny cart.)

 

once his museum is set up, how much people from let's say 1000 visitors will care about the cart swap or even notice it???

 

20 irritated AA members

[Frostbite Bailey]

Anyone have my original combat box??? It was bought in Canada through Sears? I want to match it back up to the cart