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Death of Consoles?

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18 minutes ago, R.Cade said:

Pretty sure Moore's law already hit the wall in 2012.

Just about.

 

17 minutes ago, R.Cade said:

Instead of getting faster CPU cores, we now just get multiple cores and "power savings" and have to make up for it with software solutions. Single thread performance has not grown a substantial amount for several CPU generations.

Power savings are always a welcome thing. And we get more instructions with each new generation or iteration of chips, and that's always a great thing. Cache algorithms and implementations are improving and getting larger too, another great thing. Wider buses.. More direct access to off-chip storage. I believe there's plenty of performance and efficiency gains to be had in the real world, gains that don't always show up in synthetic benchmarks.

 

I don't mind of chips don't get much faster in raw cycles. Or even much faster overall. I want to see those developers squirm and shit their pants when it comes time to go faster. Software is so bloated with useless features and "user babysitting" concessions it's just ridiculous. So put their nose to the grindstone and shave off a few APIs. Get closer to the metal.

 

33 minutes ago, R.Cade said:

I thought I read where silicon maxes out around 4-5GHz and we need some new technology to keep it going much beyond minimal advances now.

Mainly yes. Small select sections and carefully etched Silicon can still go much faster, but not the whole chip because of heat and other reasons. Back in the waning days of the dot-com era, the Pentium IV had the ALU's running 2x clock speed. A 3.4 Northwood had small sections zipping along at 6.8 GHz. At what cost? Heat & Power.

 

I don't think we'll all of a sudden see a new material pop up like magic one day. I think it'll be a slow transition, like for example a chip may incorporate more Gallium Arsenide or Rubidium and Sapphire. And its future revisions even more. And so on. Till Silicon is no longer the dominant material. It will take time to learn the characteristics of new materials and how to work with them and especially the methods to push them to higher and higher limits - like we've done with Silicon over the past 40 years. Not to mention the astronomical costs of material switchover.

 

41 minutes ago, R.Cade said:

Maybe there is more work in the GPU side of things now, but I don't keep up with that...

GPUs are incredibly massively parallel, they "only" run at around 1-2 GHz but have 7-15 Billion transistors depending on the model you get. They still dissipate upwards of 200Watts and operate by brute force. Standard operating temperatures of modern GPUs are right around 90C.  No contemporary GPU in the past 10 years is near anything I'd call elegant and efficient.

 

Graphics card manufacturers want to keep it that way. You can't practically market a CPU as bad and inefficient as a contemporary GPU. Not without your CPU getting laughed out of production. It's a stranglehold. And the nVidia CEO has said so himself.

 

And so I've vowed to never buy brand-new state-of-the-art graphics cards. I'm quite happy to stick with last-year's offerings. Thankfully there's plenty of gamer flunkies that'll always want the latest and greatest, and they happily sell me their previous stuff.

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On 3/23/2019 at 6:00 AM, Flojomojo said:

With very few exceptions, I haven't bought paper magazines, newspapers, or books for myself in over a decade. I'm a big reader. I can access, carry, and collect so much more material in electronic forms. Make mine digital.

 

I don't know or particularly care if the "no console future" will happen, but I'm ready after the fatigue of chasing after so many consoles by this point in my middle age.

 

I have so many e-books and papers to read I don't know if I'll ever get to them all! The only printed material I've bought in recent times is vintage strategy guides or vintage manuals that are not available in pdf.

 

As far as the no-console furture? Pffaghhh who cares. What's out on consoles is out on PC and the other way around. Besides I like a lot of sandbox style stuff and simulations. That's always available on PC.

 

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6 hours ago, Keatah said:

 

What's out on consoles is out on PC and the other way around.

 

Well, this isn't true for any console except the Xbox One, which is probably one reason why it didn't do particularly well this generation.

 

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Oh there's a ton of multi-platform games on PC, Mac, mobile, and the consoles. Mostly indie games, not "AAA" though. 

 

(I prefer the small stuff)

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I'm answering the question of "Death of Consoles" by watching how my 17 year old lad has gamed over the last 10 years.

PC (playing BF2 as a 7-8 year old), then PS3.  Mame on and off in between (as I was building Mame cabinets.  So emulation via PC) .... Wii, then back to PC (FPS) .... PS4  and then his Own Gaming PC.  Dabbles back in the PS3 .... and NOW .... back to PS4 in the last 2 months.

All his mates have gone back to PS4, so he's followed.  I asked why.  He said just fed up with hackers, patch problems, normal gaming PC issues.  The PS4 just felt like, turn on ... play with mates .. turn off.  He actually was going to get a Switch for his 17th last week, but changed his mind at the last minute.  Wants to wait for PS5 and it's backwards compatibility with the PS4.

Make of that as you wish.

 

In relation to the PS5.  As it's now verified as PS4 backward compat .. the rumors of PS3 and PS2, and even PS1  backwards compat are rearing it's head.  Such a console would cater for the current gen gamers and the older gen.  A big plus for consoles still holding strong?

 

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I have a ps3 and xbox 360. Ps3 I do have some nice games on, but it's mostly for playing ps1 games. 360 was mostly for twitch, now broke. BBCi player, now broke. Amazon prime, working just if you favourite on a pc first and Netflix, which still seems to update its look and work most of the time. 

 

I have played a considerably little amount on 360, its a dvd player (yep, don't tend to buy blu rays yet) which also gets on Netflix. My wii got used for the news, weather and browser now and then, wii u is more for gaming. 

 

I've avoided ps4 and xbox one completely, and now with a new gen out next year I don't see the point in upgrading. This means I've completely skipped a generation. Why? Because except for a few ps4 exclusives I cry a little about pc often has the games even if it's delayed, but I can soup up the graphics even on my aging laptop. I'm starting to now hit "medium" settings in games so I'll be due a new computer soon, but again it's an question of console or laptop and I'll probably go for laptop. 

 

The cdtv, cdi, 3DO and the other 32 bit consoles that tried cd playback, I think that's what the ps3 and 360 generation perfected, the home entertainment machine. Until I no longer turn it on, there is no reason to upgrade. Other people will want to keep up with the latest stuff and that is fine with me, but I'm happy to slow down. 

 

Also, the ps3 360 and wii generation is only just coming to a close, in fact I think ps3 has died first with just fifa and just dance available now for the others, but this was what, 2005 the start of the generation? It's a stretch to say the mega drive is still "current" but the previous generation (ps3, 360) has had a long run. 

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2 hours ago, Spriggy said:

I'm answering the question of "Death of Consoles" by watching how my 17 year old lad has gamed over the last 10 years.

PC (playing BF2 as a 7-8 year old), then PS3.  Mame on and off in between (as I was building Mame cabinets.  So emulation via PC) .... Wii, then back to PC (FPS) .... PS4  and then his Own Gaming PC.  Dabbles back in the PS3 .... and NOW .... back to PS4 in the last 2 months.

All his mates have gone back to PS4, so he's followed.  I asked why.  He said just fed up with hackers, patch problems, normal gaming PC issues.  The PS4 just felt like, turn on ... play with mates .. turn off.  He actually was going to get a Switch for his 17th last week, but changed his mind at the last minute.  Wants to wait for PS5 and it's backwards compatibility with the PS4.

Make of that as you wish.

 

In relation to the PS5.  As it's now verified as PS4 backward compat .. the rumors of PS3 and PS2, and even PS1  backwards compat are rearing it's head.  Such a console would cater for the current gen gamers and the older gen.  A big plus for consoles still holding strong?

 

 

Bingo.

 

This is why consoles still exist and have continued to exist. 

 

A console is largely a closed environment that's controlled by the developer. That can be Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft, and formerly Sega. It's much easier to just have a game, insert the game then play for a bit. Sure, they're are hackers/modders on console....but no where near as bad as PC. It's just so much easier to sit and play without all the hassle. Even though Stadia(lol) and Microsoft are pushing cloud and digital hard, that's just them trying to force what they want on the consumer. They want you using the xbox as a media center. They want you using game pass instead of owning games. They want that subscription fee instead of the cut from game/console/service sales. For Microsoft, that "Ultimate" pass is $15 a month. That's $180 a year.....xboxlive was $60(if you paid that) a year. Microsoft/Sony don't make the full $60 when a game sells as they only get a fraction. How many games do they have to sell to reach $120 per year? Does the average gamer buy enough new games to reach $120 per year? Don't forget, all the money that would go to retail/transportation/manufacturing now goes to them directly. They are also offering games they've already made a profit on with the service.

 

I'll be opting out of Microsoft and going to Sony/Nintendo next gen. I usually buy all three, but not after this latest microsoft scheme. 

Edited by Outdoormongoose
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16 hours ago, Keatah said:

Not just a stigma, but a hate. For me at least. You will not find any mobile games on my phone. None. It's strictly an information portal or window on the web so to speak. A communications/information device and that's it. Well, there's the camera - but I consider that a utility function and part of the "communication section".

 

The only phone gaming I ever did (I swear it!) was like in the early days on motorazr or krazr. And that was limited to some java crap. It was like playing through a straw. Everything felt closed in and non-grand. Not like a PC at all.

 

And the "cringe & crawl under the desk" part was that I tried hard, real hard, to enjoy it. This back in 2005/2006. Today it's microtransactions and the inability to save a game for future play that turns me off.

 

With mobile I've always had to work around something and put in great effort, just to end up with mediocre results. With PC, I still put in great effort but in return get great results.

 

 

I started to get into mobile gaming after I got my first Android phone and tablet.   Here's what turned me off:

 

* Battery drain.    Some of these games went through a full charge in what felt like 20 minutes

* Microtransaction-based models-  sure the game is cheap up front, but then you pay forever ever after

* Obnoxious ads

* The incentives to check in every day or miss out.   This got tedious

* The "share your score on facebook".   No, I am not doing your advertising for free nor giving you access to my private data!

* touch screen "joysticks".   Maybe it's just me, but I feel the controller when I play, I don't look at it.   So my fingers are constantly slipping off the buttons when the joystick is on screen, and it gets old fast. 

 

About the only games I will still play on mobile are Sudoku or some puzzle type games.  Nothing more involved.

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8 hours ago, spacecadet said:

Well, this isn't true for any console except the Xbox One, which is probably one reason why it didn't do particularly well this generation.

 

 

Eh, I'm still assuming it didn't do particularly well this generation due to all the BS they tried to pull originally that turned off a lot of gamers that were previously loyal to them as shown by them losing a large number of their preorders for the system that they never did recover from. There's also the elitist attitude of their staff at the time that insulted a lot of people who were complaining about the 24-hr login requirement initially planned by saying "You want an offline console? We got you covered, it's called a 360."

 

The fact that a bulk of the microsoft console library is often a PC port certainly helped people walk away from it however (If they had good PCs at least) - they would miss virtually nothing by boycotting the system. But remember that PS4 preorders and demand surged at the same time, so not everybody walked away from xbones to the PC. Plenty went to the PS4 as well.

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7 minutes ago, Mord said:

The fact that a bulk of the microsoft console library is often a PC port certainly helped people walk away from it however (If they had good PCs at least) - they would miss virtually nothing by boycotting the system.

As a former 360 owner, who owned consoles of each generation back to the 2600, I switch to PCs at home for this generation. The fact I could play mostly the same games was a big factor. Plus, with the previous generation I waited to buy a later 360 console that wasn't supposed to be prone to RROD, and about a year or so later... RROD. Thanks Microsoft, see ya later.

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14 hours ago, Mord said:

Eh, I'm still assuming it didn't do particularly well this generation due to all the BS they tried to pull originally that turned off a lot of gamers that were previously loyal to them as shown by them losing a large number of their preorders for the system that they never did recover from.

The launch certainly did not help. But there are reasons why they continued to lag behind Sony even after they retracted most of the original launch BS and also lowered the price of the system. Remember, the PS3 lagged in the previous generation after a disappointing launch, but eventually caught up to and surpassed the Xbox 360 worldwide, going on to be one of the top selling home systems of all time. So it's not like MS dealt themselves a fatal blow with the Xbox One launch. The problem moving forward was that they didn't have a lot of exclusive games, and most of the games that were exclusive to Xbox One on consoles were also available on PC. So really, there was almost no reason to own an Xbox One, and that's true even today. (I have one as a media streamer and 4K Blu-Ray player, but I own a total of 2 games for it.)

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On 7/3/2019 at 4:08 AM, spacecadet said:

The problem moving forward was that they didn't have a lot of exclusive games, and most of the games that were exclusive to Xbox One on consoles were also available on PC. So really, there was almost no reason to own an Xbox One, and that's true even today. (I have one as a media streamer and 4K Blu-Ray player, but I own a total of 2 games for it.)

Certainly the lack of software was an issue, plus their massive push to be an all-in-one-entertainment-device. (You know, the thing Sony tried to make the PS3 at the start of that generation but finally abandoned and concentrated on games.)

 

But the slow start and sharing a lot of their library with the PC market pretty much caused the shortage of games to intensify. With the PS4 having double the install base developers were much more likely to develop on the PS4 if they had to choose just one platform. The PS4 also gets a lot of titles from Japan which avoids Microsoft like the plague so the titles end up being exclusive there too. ;)

 

As time drags on the shortage of games is going to continue unless Microsoft tries to pull an Epic Store and outright buy exclusives left right and center.

 

On 7/2/2019 at 2:13 PM, RevEng said:

As a former 360 owner, who owned consoles of each generation back to the 2600, I switch to PCs at home for this generation. The fact I could play mostly the same games was a big factor. Plus, with the previous generation I waited to buy a later 360 console that wasn't supposed to be prone to RROD, and about a year or so later... RROD. Thanks Microsoft, see ya later.

 

I was late to the 360 for the exact same reason. Never could understand why people were jumping on the platform just because it would be easy to replace the console under the extremely generous return program given it meant you had to keep getting interrupted every so often to get a new console. My own 360 hasn't RRODed, but to be honest I wouldn't expect it to when I've probably played it for perhaps 24 hours since I purchased it... a LONG time ago.  It hasn't even been switched on in years although I suppose it's still hooked up technically. 

 

 

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On 7/2/2019 at 9:20 AM, zzip said:

I started to get into mobile gaming after I got my first Android phone and tablet.   Here's what turned me off:

 

* Battery drain.    Some of these games went through a full charge in what felt like 20 minutes

* Microtransaction-based models-  sure the game is cheap up front, but then you pay forever ever after

* Obnoxious ads

* The incentives to check in every day or miss out.   This got tedious

* The "share your score on facebook".   No, I am not doing your advertising for free nor giving you access to my private data!

* touch screen "joysticks".   Maybe it's just me, but I feel the controller when I play, I don't look at it.   So my fingers are constantly slipping off the buttons when the joystick is on screen, and it gets old fast. 

 

About the only games I will still play on mobile are Sudoku or some puzzle type games.  Nothing more involved.

I'm in the same boat, though I started playing Township recently and have to admit it's way addictive.  I think technology will continue to change things (and us) dramatically and consoles will probably die after the next gen.

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Same people saying that also didn't think this gen would see a PS4 selling 90+ million units. People like to bring up streaming as the reason why dedicated consoles will die out, but its actually why there will still be a need for dedicated consoles for the forseeable future because the infrastructure just won't be there for a long time for majority of people to make game streaming make sense. Plenty of areas have poor internet access and then you have bandwidth caps, steaming 4K gaming content will eat up your bandwith limits really fast. There are other downfalls of streaming that will just be a no go for professional players that need lag kept in check. 

As long as people keep buying these dedicated consoles then the big three will continue making them.  Just think of streaming as another choice, not a full on replacement. It'll be good for demoing games. So, don't worry, consoles will be around for the long haul. 

 

Edited by SegaSnatcher

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On 7/2/2019 at 5:46 AM, Spriggy said:

In relation to the PS5.  As it's now verified as PS4 backward compat .. the rumors of PS3 and PS2, and even PS1  backwards compat are rearing it's head.  Such a console would cater for the current gen gamers and the older gen.  A big plus for consoles still holding strong?

 

Yep, having PS4 BC means I'll be on board day 1.  If it also gets PS2 and PS1 backwards compatibility that will just be an awesome bonus.  Sony will have great momentum going into next gen.

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