MAME and legality-who decides what's legal to play?...

[ataridave]

That's essentially my question-there are games out there that have no home ports, and that no one is making money off of anymore, and yet when you play them on MAME, you're told that it's illegal to do so unless you own the actual game. Of course, no one's going to arrest me, but who decides that it's illegal, and is it a matter of international copyright law, or is it something different? In other words, why is it illegal?? Or is it, really?

 

A very good friend of mine thinks emulation is fine, as long as no one's making money off of the game.

[RevEng]

That's essentially my question-there are games out there that have no home ports, and that no one is making money off of anymore, and yet when you play them on MAME, you're told that it's illegal to do so unless you own the actual game. Of course, no one's going to arrest me, but who decides that it's illegal, and is it a matter of international copyright law, or is it something different? In other words, why is it illegal?? Or is it, really?

 

A very good friend of mine thinks emulation is fine, as long as no one's making money off of the game.

Its a simple matter of copyright law. Unless you have obtained the right to use the rom dumps from the copyright holder (either by the copyright holder selling you a copy of them, putting them in the public domain, etc.), you're breaking copyright laws.

 

Your friend may feel he has a moral right. But that's an entirely different point as to whether its illegal or not.

[DanBoris]

That's essentially my question-there are games out there that have no home ports, and that no one is making money off of anymore, and yet when you play them on MAME, you're told that it's illegal to do so unless you own the actual game. Of course, no one's going to arrest me, but who decides that it's illegal, and is it a matter of international copyright law, or is it something different? In other words, why is it illegal?? Or is it, really?

 

A very good friend of mine thinks emulation is fine, as long as no one's making money off of the game.

 

The issue is copyrights. The copyright to every arcade game ROM is technically still owned by someone or some company. It doesn't make a difference whether the copyright holder is making any money off it they still own the copyright and thus have to give permission for the game to be distributed.

 

Emulation itself is technically legal, it's the distribution of the copyrighted roms, whether you are making money off them or not, that is illegal.

 

Dan

[ataridave]

That's essentially my question-there are games out there that have no home ports, and that no one is making money off of anymore, and yet when you play them on MAME, you're told that it's illegal to do so unless you own the actual game. Of course, no one's going to arrest me, but who decides that it's illegal, and is it a matter of international copyright law, or is it something different? In other words, why is it illegal?? Or is it, really?

 

A very good friend of mine thinks emulation is fine, as long as no one's making money off of the game.

 

The issue is copyrights. The copyright to every arcade game ROM is technically still owned by someone or some company. It doesn't make a difference whether the copyright holder is making any money off it they still own the copyright and thus have to give permission for the game to be distributed.

 

Emulation itself is technically legal, it's the distribution of the copyrighted roms, whether you are making money off them or not, that is illegal.

 

Dan

 

OK, I gotcha. It just seems silly, if you're not selling the roms, but the law is what it is.

[jaybird3rd]

OK, I gotcha. It just seems silly, if you're not selling the roms, but the law is what it is.

Remember, though, that someone might have said the same thing about the TRON arcade games ten years ago, when that property was relatively dormant: Disney isn't selling it anymore, so who would it hurt to copy them? But now that the new TRON movie is on its way (yes!!!), and now that the property is heating up again, there's a new market for those games that's even easier to reach now thanks to digital distribution. Having those games floating around for free diminishes (at least theoretically) the value of that market, and that's where the injury comes in.

[Bountybob]

That's essentially my question-there are games out there that have no home ports, and that no one is making money off of anymore, and yet when you play them on MAME, you're told that it's illegal to do so unless you own the actual game. Of course, no one's going to arrest me, but who decides that it's illegal, and is it a matter of international copyright law, or is it something different? In other words, why is it illegal?? Or is it, really?

 

A very good friend of mine thinks emulation is fine, as long as no one's making money off of the game.

 

It's only my opinion I think if you aren't operating commercially "trying to make money with the ROMS" they prob don't mind with

the older non franchise games if anything it's keeping interest alive in something that would be lost otherwise.Think about it like

obscure Youtube music videos the record companies don't mind so much because if somebody likes the music video they might go

out and buy the album.

[ataridave]

OK, I gotcha. It just seems silly, if you're not selling the roms, but the law is what it is.

Remember, though, that someone might have said the same thing about the TRON arcade games ten years ago, when that property was relatively dormant: Disney isn't selling it anymore, so who would it hurt to copy them? But now that the new TRON movie is on its way (yes!!!), and now that the property is heating up again, there's a new market for those games that's even easier to reach now thanks to digital distribution. Having those games floating around for free diminishes (at least theoretically) the value of that market, and that's where the injury comes in.

 

That's a very good point!

[VectorGamer]

I'm not going to get busted for playing Asteroids on my MAME cabinet even if I didn't own the PCB. It's the folks that steal the ROMs and sell them bundled as a "Multicade" MAME cab for $2K a pop...

 

I don't know if "Multicade" is actually a product or not and therefore not suggesting any illegal activity by an entity making a product called Multicade. Just using Mutlicade to describe a cabinet with more than one game available for play.

[Derek]

I have no problem with my collection of games that I play using MAME. I'd love to have a ms.pacman sitting in my living room. Even if I did, the original creators would not get a cent as the game would be used. Same goes for second hand stores. The original makers got a cut the first time around. Go home from a yard sale with some second hand books, records, atari carts that you may derive countless hours listening to and playing. R U doing something illegal? Technically yes. Reasonably no. How full would landfills be if when you were tired of some of your records, games, books, you threw them out so anyone else who wanted to listen to the Police while playing Asteroids had to go out and find a new sealed record and cartridge...This would also make buying a car second hand illegal as the initial makers got nothing from you reselling it, so the car would have to go to the crusher after the first owner wanted to drive something brand new. You are stealing that car just as much as you stole the second had Atari cartridge. Who didn't tape songs off the radio when they were a cash poor teen. You technically stole that song. But the radio station paid royalties each time they played it and you listened. So the only thing you stole, really, is the choice to listen to it again if you wanted to.

 

Strictly following copyright laws would make this whole website (and many others) non-existent as nobody would have anything second hand for which no royalties were paid.

 

If I deleted every mp3 ripped from a second hand tape or record, and deleted all the atari stuff I didn't break out of shrinkwrap back in 1982 and so forth, there would be very little to listen to or play, and no one here can disagree with that as we all have mostly second hand stuff for which the initial maker got zip from us enjoying these things, but they did get paid the first time around...

[tz101]

Patents run out in 17 years, so how long until game copyrights expire?

[S1500]

That's essentially my question-there are games out there that have no home ports, and that no one is making money off of anymore, and yet when you play them on MAME, you're told that it's illegal to do so unless you own the actual game. Of course, no one's going to arrest me, but who decides that it's illegal, and is it a matter of international copyright law, or is it something different? In other words, why is it illegal?? Or is it, really?

 

A very good friend of mine thinks emulation is fine, as long as no one's making money off of the game.

 

I just hit left, then hit right, then enjoy some gaming history.

[RevEng]

Patents run out in 17 years, so how long until game copyrights expire?

In the US the copyrights will expire 95 years from the publication date, assuming there isn't another copyright extension law passed.

 

And it's extremely likely there will be another copyright extension law purchased by Disney and Co. by then, so it's probably most accurate to say "copyrights will last forever."

 

...Same goes for second hand stores. The original makers got a cut the first time around. Go home from a yard sale with some second hand books, records, atari carts that you may derive countless hours listening to and playing. R U doing something illegal? Technically yes.

Actually, reselling artistic works isn't illegal. Not yet, anyway.

 

I agree with the general sentiment here that it's probably safe to enjoy Mame in one's home, even if you're violating copyright laws to obtain the roms.

 

But I detest the laws that make criminals of us as we enjoy our hobby, and I worry about a day when organizations like the ESA may decide it's worth their while to turn their lawers on those that support retro gaming. They may do it just for settlement money, similar to how the RIAA has operated.

Edited April 12, 2010 by RevEng

[Steeler]

Who didn't tape songs off the radio when they were a cash poor teen. You technically stole that song.

I believe U.S. copyright law has an exception that makes that legal if certain things are met. But I don't know how long that exception's been around, or if Canada's even ever had it.

 

And the difference between buying used works and ripping off a download is that the number of copies of the work changes in the second case. You're using a copy that the company never got paid for, whereas if you buy used the company did get paid for that exact copy.

[Bountybob]

Deleted

Edited April 12, 2010 by Bountybob

[tz101]

So is it illegal for me to buy used tapes or CD's at yard sales and Goodwill because the artists are getting no portion of the proceeds?

 

I think the whole copyright thing goes too far too often...

[VectorGamer]

So is it illegal for me to buy used tapes or CD's at yard sales and Goodwill because the artists are getting no portion of the proceeds?

 

I think the whole copyright thing goes too far too often...

 

Heck no they've already been paid from the original purchase...

[ataridave]

Someone on Youtube that I subscribe to made the point that Twin Galaxies accepts scores from MAME, and then argued that they wouldn't if emulating the games was illegal. Honestly, though, the developers of an arcade game like, say, Sky Shark (known as Flying Shark in Europe) have to know that MAME exists and that there are probably people using it to play their game(s). It would seem to me that if they really cared enough to take action, they would have by now.

[RevEng]

Someone on Youtube that I subscribe to made the point that Twin Galaxies accepts scores from MAME, and then argued that they wouldn't if emulating the games was illegal.

Nobody here has said that emulating games is illegal. Only that copying roms, or using copied roms, is illegal unless your usage fits the copyright law fair-use exemptions.

 

I'm sure a lot of the developers use MAME to enjoy their works. Unfortunately, for the most part, they don't own their games. They're owned by large corporations.

 

If someone thinks there's a buck to be made by legal action, it will happen. If they don't think there's money to be made, you'll be safe. But that doesn't alter the legal status of copying their roms one bit.

 

If the copyright owners of roms support emulation, they should place their roms in the public domain, like Robby Roto, Gridlee, and Poly Play. Not holding my breath for it.

Edited April 15, 2010 by RevEng

[ataridave]

Someone on Youtube that I subscribe to made the point that Twin Galaxies accepts scores from MAME, and then argued that they wouldn't if emulating the games was illegal.

Nobody here has said that emulating games is illegal. Only that copying roms, or using copied roms, is illegal unless your usage fits the copyright law fair-use exemptions.

 

I'm sure a lot of the developers use MAME to enjoy their works. Unfortunately, for the most part, they don't own their games. They're owned by large corporations.

 

If someone thinks there's a buck to be made by legal action, it will happen. If they don't think there's money to be made, you'll be safe. But that doesn't alter the legal status of copying their roms one bit.

 

If the copyright owners of roms support emulation, they should place their roms in the public domain, like Robby Roto, Gridlee, and Poly Play. Not holding my breath for it.

 

So downloading a game from a ROM site for usage on MAME is illegal, just so I have that straight? And who are Robby Roto, Gridlee and Poly Play??

[RevEng]

So downloading a game from a ROM site for usage on MAME is illegal, just so I have that straight? And who are Robby Roto, Gridlee and Poly Play??

Right.

 

Robby Roto and Gridlee are roms that have been placed into the public domain, so they're legal to download and play.

 

I thought Poly Play was in the same boat, but it appears it fell into an "unenforceable" status rather than being put into the public domain.

[Hatta]

So downloading a game from a ROM site for usage on MAME is illegal, just so I have that straight?

 

 

Yes, unless you own a copy of the original arcade board. It's also worth mentioning that it's a civil tort, not a criminal offense. You can't go to jail for downloading, you can only get sued.

[retrorussell]

So downloading a game from a ROM site for usage on MAME is illegal, just so I have that straight? And who are Robby Roto, Gridlee and Poly Play??

Those 3 games are 100% legal for download, due to the programmers/creators/legal owners of the rom giving their full OK to release these roms for public domain use. There's a lot more games 100% legal now, many from Exidy.

[mbd30]

OK, I gotcha. It just seems silly, if you're not selling the roms, but the law is what it is.

Remember, though, that someone might have said the same thing about the TRON arcade games ten years ago, when that property was relatively dormant: Disney isn't selling it anymore, so who would it hurt to copy them? But now that the new TRON movie is on its way (yes!!!), and now that the property is heating up again, there's a new market for those games that's even easier to reach now thanks to digital distribution. Having those games floating around for free diminishes (at least theoretically) the value of that market, and that's where the injury comes in.

 

This license will be a real hot property as soon as the movie comes out

[jaybird3rd]

Robby Roto and Gridlee are roms that have been placed into the public domain, so they're legal to download and play.

Well, let's be precise: I don't know about Robby Roto, but strictly speaking, Gridlee has not been placed into the public domain. Aaron Giles contacted the owners (Roger Hector, Ed Rotberg, and Howard Delman, all formerly of Videa/Sente), and they granted permission to freely distribute it for use with MAME, provided that it is not sold. So, yes, it is freely distributable with MAME, but they still own the game.

[jaybird3rd]

Yes, unless you own a copy of the original arcade board. It's also worth mentioning that it's a civil tort, not a criminal offense. You can't go to jail for downloading, you can only get sued.

I think there are certain exceptions if you bought a license to use the game software in an emulator; if that's the case, it seems to me that using the same software in a different emulator would fall under fair use. For example, I've bought a bunch of emulation compilations over the years (the 2600 Action Packs from Activision, several arcade collections released by Williams/Midway and Atari, etc), but nowadays I usually play those games in MAME or some other emulator instead. To the best of my knowledge, I'm not violating anybody's copyrights, since I'm using the software in the way the licenses intended it to be used.

 

Along similar lines, the Intellivision Lives! and Intellivision Rocks! collections include cartridge ROM files, but if you want to pull those files off of the CD and load them into an Intellicart or Cuttle Cart 3 to play on the original Intellivision hardware instead, that's allowed: Intellivision Productions explicitly states this on their web site.