Nolan Bushnell Appointed to Atari Board

[mbd30]

When you first saw the subject line, did you think the thread was going to be about Nolan posting on an Atari message board?

 

*raises hand*

[hhwolfman]

I aksed this a few pages back and I guess it was missed.

 

Did you also interview Nolan for his side of the story for your book?

 

Nobody will answer this. Hmmmmmm

[Retro Rogue]

I aksed this a few pages back and I guess it was missed.

 

Did you also interview Nolan for his side of the story for your book?

 

Sorry, must have missed that. Yes, Curt's interviewed him plenty of times in the past, and as I already mentioned for example we contacted him regarding some of Ted's points about him (such as when he verified he forced Ted out and stated it was just business). Likewise, with his 38 years of PR and interviews, it's not like "his side" was exactly something that had to be hunted down. In fact, it was "his side" that most people start with when quoting or beginning researching Atari history.

[Retro Rogue]

There was a lot of wacky stuff going on in the industry back then. (Don't even ask how Bill and Dave Nutting got their names!)

 

 

Haha. Bill actually passed away recently. I've been interviewing Dave on and off since 2008, lot of great history there.

[moycon]

Likewise, with his 38 years of PR and interviews, it's not like "his side" was exactly something that had to be hunted down. In fact, it was "his side" that most people start with when quoting or beginning researching Atari history.

 

I think Atari2600Lives was referring to recent interviews in regards to what sounds like a lot of bad mouthing towards the man. Give him these determined facts as you present them and let him respond to all of them directly. Years (decades?) old interviews and responses to standard questions as you mentioned have been around for everyone to see, how about let the guy respond to allegations he sucks all around? I'd pay to read that.

[Retro Rogue]

I think Atari2600Lives was referring to recent interviews in regards to what sounds like a lot of bad mouthing towards the man. Give him these determined facts as you present them and let him respond to them directly. Years (decades?) old interviews and responses to standard questions as you mentioned have been around for everyone to see, how about let the guy respond to allegations he sucks all around? I'd pay to read that.

 

I guess I still don't see the difference to what I've already stated. He's been directly interviewed by Curt before, we contacted him regarding some of Ted's statements and got answers back, his other statements and claims (multiple versions in direct interviews) have also been out there both past and present, not just decades old interviews. They're what we initially all started with before seeking everyone else that was around at the time to give their side in counter. It's the opposite, it's been his badmouthing and claims over others that needed another side presented, not the other way around. I'm not sure what more he can state regarding things like Pong and Al actually being the designer, or the fact every company of his has failed or gone bankrupt (which is a matter of public record), etc. Unless you're referring to some of Curt's comments of his business dealings with Nolan, which is between Curt and Nolan to go back and forth on.

Edited April 21, 2010 by wgungfu

[hhwolfman]

I aksed this a few pages back and I guess it was missed.

 

Did you also interview Nolan for his side of the story for your book?

 

Sorry, must have missed that. Yes, Curt's interviewed him plenty of times in the past, and as I already mentioned for example we contacted him regarding some of Ted's points about him (such as when he verified he forced Ted out and stated it was just business). Likewise, with his 38 years of PR and interviews, it's not like "his side" was exactly something that had to be hunted down. In fact, it was "his side" that most people start with when quoting or beginning researching Atari history.

 

I am not trying to be an ars. The Question still wasn't answered. Was Nolan interviewed for your books. BTW I will buy both books. I love history of Atari.

[Retro Rogue]

I am not trying to be an ars.

 

Not accusing you of it.

 

The Question still wasn't answered. Was Nolan interviewed for your books. BTW I will buy both books. I love history of Atari.

 

"Curt's interviewed him plenty of times in the past". Curt and I are partners in the book, including pooling resources, people I've interviewed, he's interviewed, and conducting further interviews together. Curt's interviews with Nolan (and anybody else) is material for the book. I'm not sure how much more plain I can get.

Edited April 21, 2010 by wgungfu

[moycon]

I guess I still don't see the difference to what I've already stated.

"Curt's interviewed him plenty of times in the past".

 

If by "past" you mean 2 weeks ago, that sounds like Noland was interviewed for a book scheduled to be released soon. If "past" refers to 10 years ago...come on. I'm almost sure you see the difference.

 

In these "past" interviews, were all these crappy business practices that Noland has been accused of by people brought up, and was he allowed to respond to them directly (not indirectly through old statements and old interviews is specifically what I mean by that) and if so will they be included in this new book?

[hhwolfman]

I am not trying to be an ars.

 

Not accusing you of it.

 

The Question still wasn't answered. Was Nolan interviewed for your books. BTW I will buy both books. I love history of Atari.

 

"Curt's interviewed him plenty of times in the past". Curt and I are partners in the book, including pooling resources, people I've interviewed, he's interviewed, and conducting further interviews together. Curt's interviews with Nolan (and anybody else) is material for the book. I'm not sure how much more plain I can get.

 

 

Let me start by saying, I like Marty and Curt. Nothing against you all, at all. Marty, Ping and Curt, I have tons of respect for as Atari Historians, but if you biased against said person, No matter if right or wrong, all the facts just won't come out. I am no where near as knowledgeable as the above, but if you were not there at the time it all happened, (70's Early 80's) and everything is hear say, everyone just has to make there own opinions. Just IMO.Looking forward to the books. HHW

[Retro Rogue]

If by "past" you mean 2 weeks ago, that sounds like Noland was interviewed for a book scheduled to be released soon. If "past" refers to 10 years ago...come on. You're smart enough to see the difference.

 

A) The book isn't going to be released "soon", there's still much more work involved as we already explained. Right now as far as the first book we're concentrating on some of the lesser known early arcade projects, Atari's arcades they opened in the early 70's and a few more items. B) "Past" refers to direct interviews and emails from late 90's through to just last year, and yes that includes the material brought up here. Whether he chose to respond to everything is another matter. C) Material that has been vetted (i.e. backed up by multiple sources, not just one person's recollection or response) is what's going in the books as already stated. That includes material backed up by multiple people (as Curt already stated, Ted's unflattering revelations regarding Nolan's claims were already backed up by direct responses from the first 10 Atari employees, the guys at Cyan, etc. for example), or engineering logs, internal emails, filings, other forms of verified documentation, etc. (since we're talking about material for the book as a whole, not just stuff related to this Nolan conversation). D) No, smart enough to see you're being your usual self. What's going in the book and how we came about it was answered already.

[Retro Rogue]

but if you biased against said person, No matter if right or wrong, all the facts just won't come out. I am no where near as knowledgeable as the above, but if you were not there at the time it all happened, (70's Early 80's) and everything is hear say, everyone just has to make there own opinions. Just IMO.Looking forward to the books. HHW

 

I'm not sure where you getting bias or hearsay from though. As stated, material that has been vetted (i.e. backed up by multiple sources, not just one person's recollection or response) is what's going in the books. That includes material backed up by multiple people (as Curt already stated, Ted's unflattering revelations regarding Nolan's claims were already backed up by direct responses from the first 10 Atari employees including Al Alcorn, the guys at Cyan, etc. for example), or engineering logs, internal emails, filings, other forms of verified documentation, etc. We've followed and continue to follow this process for everything going in to the book, no matter what the subject, and don't just take anyone's word for anything. In fact it was because of this process that a lot of Nolan's self PR was caught and we are where we are now. Claiming bias or hearsay before even reading a page of the book is a little premature.

Edited April 21, 2010 by wgungfu

[Trooper]

....but if you were not there at the time it all happened, (70's Early 80's) and everything is hear say, everyone just has to make there own opinions. Just IMO.Looking forward to the books. HHW

 

But if you needed to be there when it all went down in order to write a book, not many historybooks would be written. What you're saying, if I understand correctly, is that in order to write a book on a subject in history you need to have been there or the book can not be considered trustworthy, interviewing the people who were there is not enough because that's only hearsay. Like I said, with that outlook on things not many historybooks would be written.

[moycon]

"Past" refers to direct interviews and emails from late 90's through to just last year, and yes that includes the material brought up here. Whether he chose to respond to everything is another matter.

 

As long as he was given the opportunity to respond.

 

I think it's great you guys at gave the man an opportunity to give his side in regards to information you discovered.

That's what wasn't clear to me even though you kept mentioning past interviews.

I guess we'll wait to see if he took the opportunity or not.

[Tickled_Pink]

Ok after reading the negative comments I have one thing to say.

 

Get the fuck over it.

 

If he was a thieving prick who copied stuff and......made it better......so what.

(or made others make it better like most owners do)

 

See Bill Gates.

 

From someone who was not hurt directly by these practices, that would be awfully easy to say. I suspect not so much for anyone who got bent over without so much as the courtesy of a reach-around. If Curt was a victim of Bushnell's business practices, then it's probably a little more difficult for him to "Get the fuck over it".

 

I applaud Curt and Marty for making an effort to document the truth. If Mr. Bushnell finds these things to be libelous, let him come forward to defend himself.

(This is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time.)

 

Precisely my thoughts and why Curt and Marty are going to be very careful with the information they receive and eventually publish. They will know full well the potential consequences of letting personal feelings get in the way. People like Nolan Bushnell often don't give two cents what people actually think of them but if an opportunity arises to squeeze some money out of someone over a perceived slight then they will go for it.

 

It's the Atari way, after all.

[carmel_andrews]

Whilst the idea of 2 books detailing Atari from Bushnell to Atari/JTS merger is good, the only benefits i see is it will simply pool all information from various sources into 2 books as well as the info regarding Atari's relationship with Amiga and the whole commodore/atari/amiga spat

 

Anything else, be it the way Bushnell did things, the way tramiel did things and the way warner's did things will be argued and argued over for time immemorium, simply because in order to get a complete overview of each and every thing is to interview practically each and every person concerned with that particular fact/situation and if you were to include all that (in unedited form) in these books you'd end up with more then 2 volumes, so essentially we would still only be getting a particular side of the story (due to the fact that only certain facts will be addressed and that your'e asking and interviewing people about facts/incidents that happened over 10/20 and more years ago (and unless you have the fantastic memory recall system, obviously some people's memory of a particular fact/incident will be somewhat hazy or blurred in some way) so naturally those that are interviewed will give only their slant or perspective on things (bearing in mind that just like people hear on atariage, those that were interviewed for the books are or were either pro or anti bushnell, pro or anti tramiel/warners etc and their views and opinions, shown in the interview will reflect that) only way around that would be to get someone else interviewed to either coorberate or provide more insight into what the first person said

[Ross PK]

Since the industrial revolution, there are very few examples of successful business tycoons that weren't borderline sociopaths with highly questionable morals and behaviors. Unpleasant real estate, railroad, oil, automobile, aerospace, electricity, movie, television, telecom, and other moguls outnumber the "decent" ones at least 1000:1. Each of them would screw you, me, our mothers, and our kids for a nickel, and without thinking twice. Historically that's what they did and continue to do whenever the opportunity arises.

 

But hey, if someone wants to think Bushnell, Jobs, and Gates are personal friends, that's fine. Everyone needs a healthy fantasy life. I just don't understand why someone would waste perfectly good fantasy time thinking nice things about business leaders instead of something healthy like pinup models or pr0n stars...

 

I'm sure most of us think about the other two things as well. At least I do anyway.

[Ross PK]

When you first saw the subject line, did you think the thread was going to be about Nolan posting on an Atari message board?

 

*raises hand*

 

Lol, yeah, I did.

[Curt Vendel]

Good luck trying to get a real or honest answer out of Nolan. He has so many layers of lies about his career he can't even keep them straight anymore.

 

Even when it comes to Ralph Baer and Magnavox, after years of denying it publicly (even though in court he lost, it just wasn't in the public view and the internet wasn't in full swing yet) he still adamantly denied he ever saw the Odyssey console. Yet when photo's of his actual signature in the guestbook appeared, he finally admitted it.

 

Now he'll occasionally give Baer the credit due, only to then follow up with some off-handed insult to him afterwards.

 

Getting "Nolan's side" -- you might as well just make something up yourself for the answers....

 

because that is all you'll get directly from Nolan.

 

 

Curt

 

"Past" refers to direct interviews and emails from late 90's through to just last year, and yes that includes the material brought up here. Whether he chose to respond to everything is another matter.

 

As long as he was given the opportunity to respond.

 

I think it's great you guys at gave the man an opportunity to give his side in regards to information you discovered.

That's what wasn't clear to me even though you kept mentioning past interviews.

I guess we'll wait to see if he took the opportunity or not.

[atarian63]

The Chuck E. Cheese near me still has beer on tap.

 

From my memories all the ones we went to did. How do you think the parents were expected to put up with 100's of screaming kids and the loud "bloop, beep, borf" sounds of video games?

A favorite hangout for you? really though, the one here has bottle beer,last time i was at my nephews bday party.

 

Yeah, it used to be a neat thing in the 80's when I took my kids there,bythe 90's when my younger kids went it was declining and seems way downhill since then.

[Chickybaby]

The book isn't even finished or finalized. Thank you to the authors for including us in their creative processes and sharing information.

 

The best example I can think of would be that I wasn't there when my family escaped Eastern Europe during the war but given my heritage and being around these individuals throughout my life I would be fully qualified to write a book about it imo. Historians today also weren't necessarily there during various times in history but with degrees, experience in the field etc are qualified as well. Given Curt's and Wgungfu's personal work experience, imo, that would make them more qualified as they have more access into the industry and through personal first hand experiences saw far more then an average consumer etc.

 

They are doing a massive amt of research, are obviously checking and double checking their content as they are subject to the same laws as the rest of the US in regards to literary pursuits, and they have done us the courtesy of that inclusion, so can we please at least return the favor and wait till it's finished before criticizing, judging, commenting on slant/bias/contents etc?

 

It's a grueling process as any author could attest and factoring in health and emotional components it adds more to that. IMO As longstanding members of this community and longtime contributors to the vid game community in general, personally agree or disagree it doesn't matter, as I fully support them and wish them well. I cannot wait to see the finished product for myself so I can form my own personal opinion based on the facts and knowledge presented in their entirety at that time.

 

Thank you.

[+Psionic]

Good luck trying to get a real or honest answer out of Nolan. He has so many layers of lies about his career he can't even keep them straight anymore.

 

Even when it comes to Ralph Baer and Magnavox, after years of denying it publicly (even though in court he lost, it just wasn't in the public view and the internet wasn't in full swing yet) he still adamantly denied he ever saw the Odyssey console. Yet when photo's of his actual signature in the guestbook appeared, he finally admitted it.

 

Now he'll occasionally give Baer the credit due, only to then follow up with some off-handed insult to him afterwards.

 

Getting "Nolan's side" -- you might as well just make something up yourself for the answers....

 

because that is all you'll get directly from Nolan.

Indeed, Bushnell is well protected by his handlers and any journalist who actually knows their stuff and goes to challenge him isn't allowed anywhere near the man. He'll only talk to people like Steven Kent who are going to cater to his ego and lob him softballs.

[hhwolfman]

....but if you were not there at the time it all happened, (70's Early 80's) and everything is hear say, everyone just has to make there own opinions. Just IMO.Looking forward to the books. HHW

 

But if you needed to be there when it all went down in order to write a book, not many historybooks would be written. What you're saying, if I understand correctly, is that in order to write a book on a subject in history you need to have been there or the book can not be considered trustworthy, interviewing the people who were there is not enough because that's only hearsay. Like I said, with that outlook on things not many historybooks would be written.

 

Nope, This is what I am saying. After Reading the book " everyone just has to make there own opinions". I for one look forward to doing so.

[Tempest]

I guess I'm lucky that I got to meet Nolan several years ago at CGE (he even signed my program and took a picture with me). He was nice enough, but when I talked to him I got the feeling that Atari was just 'another thing he had done' and that it didn't seem to hold any special place in his heart like we all seem to think. He talked about it like it was another business he had started and sold off, proud of it yes, but not overly nostalgic. He was definitely more of a business man than the 'heart and soul' of Atari.

 

BTW I just need to mention here that I got to go to a uWink last year. The food was pretty good, but the rest of it sucked. Having to order everything from a little kiosk at the table was cute at first, but after 80 button presses to order my burger I was starting to get annoyed. I was also quite dismayed that you had to pay to play any of the games at the table. If I'm paying three times what I should for a burger they should throw in the games for free.

 

Tempest

[Cebus Capucinis]

I guess I'm lucky that I got to meet Nolan several years ago at CGE (he even signed my program and took a picture with me). He was nice enough, but when I talked to him I got the feeling that Atari was just 'another thing he had done' and that it didn't seem to hold any special place in his heart like we all seem to think. He talked about it like it was another business he had started and sold off, proud of it yes, but not overly nostalgic. He was definitely more of a business man than the 'heart and soul' of Atari.

 

 

But see, there's the funny thing about Nolan, as I'm sure Curt and Marty will attest. You're just some guy at CGE to him, you don't further his career or help him gain the upper hand by him being nostalgic -- he doesn't think you important enough to warrant putting on that show, it seems.

 

I'll bet any amount of money as soon as a news reporter gets in his face or a venture capitalist or financier talks to him about Atari, here come Nolan's nostalgia goggles and he'll talk for days about how he has a soft spot in his heart for Atari.

 

He'll become the "heart and soul" of Atari as soon as it benefits him. That's a switch that I guarantee Nolan can flip in his brain within nanoseconds. That's part of being in business, I guess, "tell them what they want to hear if I gain from it", but it's exactly the attitude that disheartens people when thinking about this company.

 

I want to address Nolan's treatment of his employees, as it's a big point that comes up time and time again. A lot of people like to think that Atari was a great place to work because of the sex, drugs, rock n' roll, and lax employee treatment. Nolan states that as long as they worked and worked hard, they could go on vacation when they wanted, work hours they wanted, etc. etc. That's a great recipe for high employee morale but it's a bad recipe for a strong and growing business. Warner's purchase of Atari is a perfect example of that. Atari was repeatedly near bankruptcy until Warner purchased them. As soon as Warner moves in, hey, it's "wear shoes to work and come in 9 to 5" -- something the employees hated and reviled (see Activision, for example), but guess what? It's what made Atari incredibly profitable -- profitable with Nolan out of the equation.

 

It may be "fun" to work somewhere where you can do whatever you want and don't have to follow rules, but that's a big part of why Atari didn't do well in the business sense. Nolan may be great to hang out with, but this (among other reasons) leads me to believe he is definitely not a good businessperson. Raising morale is a good thing, as Warner needed to learn, but prioritizing it is never a good business practice. Employees working odd hours and taking vacations when they feel like it, or even more so, doing lines of coke on the boss's desk sounds like a hell of a lot of fun, but it's not profitable. It might work great for creative juices, but when you're getting in orders for 500,000 units of a product that you have to deliver, wearing shoes and working 9 to 5 is what's going to get it done better and faster. Warner saw that when they bought Atari, and that's why it was one of the first things they changed: the working environment. Atari employees weren't as happy (who would be when you can no longer bring 3 hookers to work every "casual Friday"?) but they were more productive, profitable, and produced higher quality products (and I know someone is going to jump all over me for that last bit).