We need First Person Shooters!

[Super Karnov]

The Atari Jaguar has demonstrated it's ability to make very fun and playable versions of classic First Person Shooters, ie Wolfenstein 3D and DOOM. There are lots of fun old DOS First Person Shooters that need to come over..and it can be done. Rise of The Triad, Duke Nukem 3D, Hexen and DOOM II are just to name a few that are necessary.

[Chickybaby]

Great games all my favs (add Heretic and even Shadow Warrior to that) but I have a few suggestions for you -

First: The font and Bold are obnoxious to at least my eyes and I doubt I am the only one. I would suggest you Fix it if you want people to pay attention to what you type.

Second: If you want something so badly learn to do it yourself but don't make demands on Programmers as that won't work too well.

Third: Be happy with what you get for an older system if you can't do any better and support those who do keep it alive by continuing to Code.

Fourth: Welcome to the forums and the "Search" function is your friend especially for games and information on homebrews and new releases.

Fifth: Since, those were mainly Computer titles and I am not sure what could be worked with as far as bit rate, sprites, the engine, etc goes with the sequels because I do not know Jag coding. But, As you said There is already Doom, Wolfenstein, and Alien Vs Predator for the Jag.

Sixth: Check Atari Owl and others projects

Thank you and have a good one.

[The_Laird]

If I wanted to play FPS I would buy a Playstation or Xbox

[+save2600]

I shudder to think how some of those more modern FPS would look, play and feel on the Jag. Like Chicky said - be happy with what 'ya got. Or not.

Edited June 3, 2010 by save2600

[Cebus Capucinis]

They should make one titled "Invasion of the Ass People" and "Ass People 2: Pants on Ground".....

[kskunk]

If you want something so badly learn to do it yourself

Stole the words from my mouth! Seriously, why do you think programmers make games for the Jaguar? Because they're like you. They want to see a particular game. There's no money in it and no fame, so there are really no other reasons.

 

So nobody ELSE is going to do it for you. You have to do it yourself.

 

So let me rephrase your post for you:

 

Hi everybody. Just wondering, how do I port a classic DOS FPS like Hexen or Doom II to the Jaguar?

I have good news: It's easier than ever. The community has been sharing tools, documents, source code, hints and tips on boards like this one and others for years.

 

Over the years we've built up a huge amount of useful information.

 

1) You can find tons of fan-made and official documents online, including source code, to give you a feel for how the Jaguar works.

2) You can buy one of many development tools such as a BJL cable, Skunkboard, Flash cart, from online stores and auctions posted here.

3) You can download compilers, assemblers, linkers and even emulators to help you test. http://www.SubQMod.com/ is an awesome resource, and SubQMod is even a regular here.

4) You can download the source code for Jaguar Doom. It's legally available for you to compile and modify.

 

For Doom specifically, people on this very forum are digging into the guts of the engine and figuring out how to port other Doom-based games, including Hexen and Doom II! There is a ton of work to do here -- including a ton of simple experimentation and testing that, while time-consuming, doesn't require much specific Jaguar programming knowledge. Go to the appropriate threads and see if you can help out.

 

Don't say 'oh well I can't program'. Nobody is born knowing how to program. I learned because I wanted to see video game ideas become a reality. It sounds like you want to make yours become a reality, too. So why wait? It's a fun hobby. Start today!

 

- KS

[Starcat]

Very good point, ksunk!

You are very right. If one puts his mind to it, almost everything can be learned to some degree.

I saw it happen in my game design study often enough. Most people there were not cut out to be graphic artists, let alone programmers or game designers. Still most of them managed to get good enough to at least pass the exams and write their bachelor thesis.

I was very different to them in my way of thinking. They were the Xbox and PC generation of today and always talking about the latest fps and expensive graphics cards and latest chart games. I never understood how one could believe to get good at something while skipping everything but the latest developments.

Turned out I was right starting at the beginning.

They looked at me and thought I was outdated and old fashioned, because I taught myself how to program, not in flash or some point and click game studios, but in assembler first, then C, then a bit C++ and so on. You get the idea.

Once you understand where it all started and how it works, you can learn anything new in quite a short time.

Same was true for me when it came to graphics, writing and game design.

 

On a related note, look at Doom on a PC. Look at Duke Nukem 3D on a PC. There are three years of technology between them. To run duke enjoyable you needed a 486 DX/4 100MHz with 16 MB. 66MHz and 8 MB is the absolute min spec.

The console versions had a hard time even getting close to the PC version, although the engines were entirely rewritten to use the custom graphics hardware of the consoles for texturemapping etc. Which the Jag doesn't have.

Now Shadow Warrior required even more hardware than Duke on PC and there is no console version, possibly for a reason.

 

While games like Doom are great on the Jag, I doubt anything later will be so enjoyable.

The Jaguar version runs at half the resolution of the PC version to get the framerate it has.

I believe a really talented Jag developer could create a doom-like engine that runs smoothly without reducing the screensize.

But everything more sophisticated, I have my doubts. You are welcome to surprise us all, though

Edited June 4, 2010 by Starcat

[JagChris]

Very good point, ksunk!

 

While games like Doom are great on the Jag, I doubt anything later will be so enjoyable.

The Jaguar version runs at half the resolution of the PC version to get the framerate it has.

I believe a really talented Jag developer could create a doom-like engine that runs smoothly without reducing the screensize.

 

 

Even Carmack said the Doom engine was nowhere near optimized on the Jag. Rushed port. WAY much more can be gotten out of it with a rewrite fairly easy. There is a link to the interview somewhere. Its been around for years.

 

Also this crew is looking for someone to help them port HYPERTENSION to the Jag if anyone is interested in poking around with that.

Edited June 4, 2010 by JagChris

[Starcat]

I know, that's why I said more can be done. I know the interview and more importantly, I know the Jag and what talented Jaguar programmers can do. Atariowl proved what amazing performance he could get out of the Jaguar.

There is no general solution however. There is no secret way to get ultimate speed out of the Jaguar, that you just need to know about to use it. To push the Jaguar further than games like Iron Solider or Doom did, you still need to be a damn good programmer. To push it even further, you need an engine concept that focuses specially on things the Jag is good at and make use of each tiny coding tweak to get more performance. I believe the Atariowl project proves what the Jaguar is truely able to do in terms of 3D graphics, but let's not forget all the years of effort and experience that went into it. It's one of a kind in my opinion.

 

It would be amazing to see Hypertension on the Jag, though. So best of luck to the team.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Starcat

[carmel_andrews]

Doesn't the jaggie already have 2 FPS's....Doom and Alien v Predator

 

Surely the jaggie is good for any game type (i.e not just FPS's)

[The_Laird]

Doesn't the jaggie already have 2 FPS's....Doom and Alien v Predator

 

Surely the jaggie is good for any game type (i.e not just FPS's)

 

As Chicky already stated it has more than 2

[Gorf]

1st: How about you use a nice normal font like everyone else?

2nd: What you are asking for is a daunting task: Are you willing to pay/learn to code/help such a big project?

3rd: Are'nt you sick of FPS games by now?

[JagChris]

For Doom specifically, people on this very forum are digging into the guts of the engine and figuring out how to port other Doom-based games, including Hexen and Doom II!

- KS

 

Who out there is doing that? Unless there is some unseen talent out there there isnt many with the skills to rebuild the JagDoom engine like that in this community. The ones with the skills to do so.. Tursi, AtariOwl, Scatologic, SubQmod, Mellis and the Stooges crew seem to be disinterested or doing other things.

 

This is part of the reason why the Hypertension crew can't get help porting the Jag. The developer did say I believe that he could rebuild the engine he just needs help with Jaguar specific stuff because he has no experience with it.

[kskunk]

Who out there is doing that? Unless there is some unseen talent out there there isnt many with the skills to rebuild the JagDoom engine like that in this community.

I was referring to this discussion:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/162133-doom-level-hacking-tutorial/

 

Having only looked at it briefly myself, it seems like the Doom engine is flexible enough that you can do quite a bit with the existing binaries and a hex editor. If you really want to rebuild the engine from source, I understand why that's a lot of work. Maybe that's why people aren't that interested in pursuing it -- it's a lot of work for not a lot of apparent gain, when hex editing can achieve so much.

 

Are the people who want to rebuild Doom really interested in messing with the guts of the engine, or just changing tables and lists baked into the source code? Because the latter is easily achievable in hex editing territory. And if it's the former, well, you ought to know a lot about the Jaguar to make even modest changes...

 

- KS

[JagChris]

Who out there is doing that? Unless there is some unseen talent out there there isnt many with the skills to rebuild the JagDoom engine like that in this community.

I was referring to this discussion:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/162133-doom-level-hacking-tutorial/

 

Are the people who want to rebuild Doom really interested in messing with the guts of the engine, or just changing tables and lists baked into the source code?

- KS

 

I dunno, I was going off of your post...

 

For Doom specifically, people on this very forum are digging into the guts of the engine...

and I may have wrongly assumed that it means rebuilding the engine rather than simply slapping new wads in there. You dont need to dig into the guts of the engine to put in new wads do you?

 

I'll go read the tutorial.

Edited June 12, 2010 by JagChris

[ovalbugmann]

I just plan on doing what neo-rg did, I need to set some time aside to go over his instructions & understand what is needed to accomplish that. Would be pretty cool I think.

[kskunk]

and I may have wrongly assumed that it means rebuilding the engine rather than simply slapping new wads in there. You dont need to dig into the guts of the engine to put in new wads do you?

I guess I chose my words poorly. 'Digging in' meant reverse engineering the engine, not rebuilding it.

 

It has taken a fair bit of reverse engineering to figure out the JagDoom secrets. Beyond the fact that the WAD format is different, there are hard-coded tables and hidden limitations.

 

Then again, PC Doom took a huge amount of reverse engineering too. We just take it for granted because helpful people have bundled all that knowledge into easy-to-use tools. If you learn a new limit or trick, and share all you know with the community, you can bet after a while a programmer will come around and incorporate all those tricks into an easier process. The experimentation is the labor-intensive part, but anybody can learn enough to do that.

 

It's nowhere near as hard as modifying source code. I don't think anybody has to be a Jaguar expert. Knowing some things about Doom, with a Skunkboard, and a hex editor, is enough. It just takes experimentation to find the differences and limits. And a whole lot is already mapped out, so you can get a decent level going if you read up, follow the rules, and tinker with it.

 

So, go ahead, 'dig in'!

 

- KS

Edited June 12, 2010 by kskunk

[belboz]

When I release my tool set Doom hacking will be dead simple. No need to use a hex editor. Although if your brave enough to go hacking with a hex editor it will help you better understand the WAD format. But some things are just too much work or too hard with a hex editor.

[ovalbugmann]

As I have said previously Belboz, I will very much be looking forward to your toolset release!!! We Jagfans are really lucky to have someone of your calibur and skill level participating regularly on the forums -Thanks man!

 

Ever since sh3 was reporting what neo was doing I feel like I have been missing out on the possible results I could personally achieve for myself to enjoy, because of the skill level involved and extra time for understanding the work that needs to be done by a novice(such as myself). So if for some reason I am unable to replicate neo's work, I am confident that won't be the case, in the future, thanks to you.

[JagChris]

For Doom specifically, people on this very forum are digging into the guts of the engine and figuring out how to port other Doom-based games, including Hexen and Doom II!

- KS

 

I still want to know whose doing Hexen. I'd love to see Heretic personally. wotta fun game.

[Starcat]

If I remember correctly Heretic is actually baed on the Doom engine and had with similar limitations, so that may be possible to convert. Hexen used a more advanced engine, possibly doom 2 or a modified doom2 engine, so converting the levels to jagdoom, would probably mean to simplify them quite a bit.

[JagChris]

Its too bad I'm not a quick study at programming. I wish I could hurry up and get good enough to start working on stuff like rebuilding the Doom engine.

 

Hell even the 32x community loves its system enough to help port Hypertension to that console. That is annoying. 32x will beat the Jag even in its death.

[carmel_andrews]

Question is, why are we going to be using someone elses work (i.e a doom/wolfenstein 3d engine) as a basis of a new FPS game when i am sure we have enough creative or programming geniuses on the jaguar scene that can come up with a new game or type of FPS that goes beyond the doom/wolf 3d type thing

 

Merely going by what Gorf said once when I mentioned porting some ST/amiga game to the Jaguar and applying it to this thread

Edited June 13, 2010 by carmel_andrews

[Starcat]

@carmel_andrews: You've got a point there. In fact that's exactly what I've been saying (and wondering) for a long time already, when people asked about ports of this or that for the Jaguar.

 

What's the point in porting something if you can also just play the games on the original systems?

It can be as much work as rewriting the whole game and there are usually copyright problems involed. It's a lot of work put into a project if the game wasn't your own idea in the first place.

 

I think a much better and more interesting thing is to come up with something new and original.

Of course that's a lot more difficult and not everybody has the time or experience to put that much effort into a project.

Some people decide, they prefer to focus on the programming part of creating a game (maybe because that's what they are best at) and limit themself to porting or remaking something, which can be a big challenge and a lot of work on its own.

 

Personally I prefer original ideas and new games, over ports, remakes or sequels.

 

It may sound strange, but even commercial next gen games of today hardly appeal to me, because they just don't feel original or interesting anymore. It's almost like each game of a genre is the same as previous titles, just spiced up with more realistic graphics. Knowing how those games are created, I can't even get excited about the visuals anymore.

Fondly created pixel artwork is much more impressive to me, because it leaves a lot more to the imagination while still being great to look at. As a player I'm much more involved in a game that lets me imagine something, rather than just being a passive consumer in front of a tv.

That's why I love the games of the 80s and 90s. Those were amazing experiences I could really be a part of.

 

Seeing how many game ideas I have in my head and how many more I come up with all the time, it makes me wonder how much more interesting todays games could be, if the industry was more open to good ideas, instead of just caring about HD graphics that are as realistic as possible.

Anyway, back to topic.

 

I think about all people in the community who develop games, are already working on something.

Including some amazing new and original games.

[rush6432]

I would be willing to help convert heretic over if someone wants to start that project, However, im not going to be the one to start that project though...

Edited June 17, 2010 by rush6432