I think now I understand why the NES beat the 7800

[The_Laird]

Well Atari joe...you want to read this then (re: nintendo's software development and publishing practices and policies and it's effect on UK/european markets at the time)

 

http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/rep_pub/reports/1995/fulltext/359c1.pdf

 

http://www.economicshelp.org/microessays/competition/abuse-monopoly-power.html

 

I am surprised that domark in the UK (who had licencing contracts with tengen/atari) didn't try suing nintendo in the UK or european courts as they (nintendo) technically operated a cartel, as i would guess nintendo had the same business practices in the uk/european markets as they had in the US, and if it true what various 3rd party US publishers were saying at the time (i.e either preventing or making it difficult for non licenced nintendo publishers to getting retailers stocking non nintendo licenced product in their store/shop) i am sure that nintendo's UK/euro representatives were playing the same game in the UK/european markets

 

Difference is that the NES didn't sell very well in the UK at all.

[S1500]

Perhaps one theory is that the NES(okay, might be repeating myself here) actually moved on from just console ports of arcade games. Atari would be doing console ports of arcade games for a 3rd time around. Hey! Let's play Asteroids & Pac Man & Space Invaders! Again! Let's re-buy our games!

 

Nah, would rather play some games with more depth.

[Atari Joe]

Yes, that's absolutely true acusticguitar!! And most people have the story the other way around. Who even knows why. I don't even bother arguing that point because its mute to the larger point: Whatever happened happened. What would have happened with Nintendo, Kassar, the Tramiels, who'se to say?? Clearly Kassar either didn't fully recognize the value of Nintendo or didn't care for the cut of their jig. Nintendo was growing impatient with the way Atari was conducting things with them and who can blame them? Neither of them were really very warm to each other. We can sit and pick through the past and rearrange the puzzle pieces of history to create a different result, but it's all hogwash. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

And had Atari under Warner secured the rights to the NES whose to say history would have played out the same way for the NES with Atari in control. Would an alternate sideways universe Warner Communications have backed Atari all the way and given an Atari-owned NES the same kind of support that Nintendo did? Would Atari have thought to have played the same games with 3rd party publishers the same way Nintendo did that lead to the NES being so popular back here in the real world?? Would Atari have backed expensive releases and the incredible games like Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc. etc.?? Who knows..

 

A similar example of the point is the Sega Master System. It was very popular in many parts of the world! But not in the United States. One of the many reasons was because of how Tonka handled things. Had there been a similar relationship between Atari and Nintendo, whose to say what would have happened? It could have gone either way.

 

What I DO know is what DID happen in the real world. I love Atari but what unfolded in the mid-80's with the NES was the creative destruction of the video game industry. You have to destroy the old to create the new. And it needed to happen. Atari was a giant in the industry that got leveled singlehandedly by a small agile group of guys at an upstart branch of Nintendo out in Redmond, Washington. They had to go out and create something entirely new. They didnt have a giant structure on top of them telling them what couldnt be done. They had an agile little group of people who knew what had to be done and were given the freedom to explore and create and try something new that wasnt being tried. They had to go where the others werent in order to succeed and that's exactly what the NES did. It was a whole new approach that felt really clean and high tech. It just looked different from everything else out there. And because at that point in time they were the underdogs, and they were the ones struggling to make it happen they were willing to go where none of the other guys were willing to go which resulted in a clean, fresh design and some great promotion of their product against Atari. Even though at that point their American operation was really quite small.

 

Had the NES been released by big ole lofty Atari I'm sure they would have released something that looks and feels just like all of the other Ataris we know and love and the NES wouldnt load like a VCR, it would have probably had joysticks and a top loading black cartridge and everything else. Atari was looking at releasing the Famicom in what would become the Atari 2600 jr. case. That means another black/silver Atari with joysticks and the whole bit. According to the documentation it would have been an NES reimagined by Atari. Because that's NOT what happened, it allowed Nintendo to get creative and release something that revitalized the industry.

 

Nintendo kicked Atari's ass in the 1980s. That's what happened. Atari wasnt even AT the 1985 CES yet Nintendo showed up with their first prototype the Nintendo Advanced Video System.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Whatever happened happened. You can sit and think about a different history that could have unfolded, but "what ifs" are for children, and when you take those toys away from children they get whiny and start to cry.

[Atari Joe]

Perhaps one theory is that the NES(okay, might be repeating myself here) actually moved on from just console ports of arcade games. Atari would be doing console ports of arcade games for a 3rd time around. Hey! Let's play Asteroids & Pac Man & Space Invaders! Again! Let's re-buy our games!

 

Nah, would rather play some games with more depth.

 

 

Another great example of things may not have been any different for Atari no matter how it played out! Swap out the technology, sure, Atari could very well have conducted things in such a way that the NES was known for exactly what the 7800 is known for - the same Atari games that were on the 5200 and 2600 and 8-Bit computer line. There are so many examples of things like this that people need to take into consideration. It's not just the hardware, it's the decisions of those in charge on what to do with what they have.

 

Nintendo of America made, on whole, better decisions than Atari Inc. or Atari Corp. and that's essentially the ultimate shell of why they were successful.

[Gorf]

Perhaps one theory is that the NES(okay, might be repeating myself here) actually moved on from just console ports of arcade games. Atari would be doing console ports of arcade games for a 3rd time around. Hey! Let's play Asteroids & Pac Man & Space Invaders! Again! Let's re-buy our games!

 

Nah, would rather play some games with more depth.

 

 

There were a hell of a lot moer Atari games than the dozen everyone likes to mention.

Atari still had plenty up their sleves as well as the 3rd parties to rely on.

 

Atari Joe, you should really change your name to Nintendo Joe. No one is whinning about what ifs.

I'm simply saying that Atari had the better hardware and the idiots running Atari sat on it as well as

their brains. Had they been less cocky and thinking that their name was good enough, they would still

be king today. The major point is Nintendo was handed Atari's ass By Atari, Nintendo was in the right

place at the right time and LUCK and bad decisions gave them the upper edge. Atari Did not want to win

because even with the exclusive monopoly of Nintendo, Atari could have if they really wanted to, come back

and destroyed them.....Unfortunately for Atari, they did not realize what they needed to do. Instead

they simply repeated the same mistakes. For your information, Atari fell from grace long before the

NES was even heard of. They blew is WAY back with the 5200....a horrible disaster. That is where Atari

went wrong. Nintendo was just the result of Atari's bad decisions. They got lucky. and were wise enough to

play on Atari's mistakes...Their hardware was garbage in comparison and most of the software was too. I never

wanted an NES as the game were less than exciting to me.

[carmel_andrews]

Well from what i recall reading from AA, the NES has several attempts at it's launch before it's succesful test marketing in New York...

 

Now obviously tramaiel didn't want to overstretch himself financially, which is why he put the 7800 on the backburner till 86 (so he could concentrate atari's finances on getting the ST of the ground and also the XE), however, tramiel must have known about nintendo's intentions with the US market, and should have been secretly getting out 7800's to developers as well as signing up new developers (with a view to getting quality software/games for the 7800 ready for an 1986 launch, or 1987 if your'e in UK/EU) while nintendo were going about getting their console into the US market...that's the little mistake tramiel made

 

Also, instead of wasting money on a poorly performing games system (like the XEGS) Atari should have spent the money saved (by not releasing the XEGS) and commiting it to pushing the 7800 more (especially in europe which was atari's major market) and getting ST software houses adapting or porting their ST games to the 7800, at least that way the 7800 could have competed with the NES so far as quality (and probably quantity) software/games are concerned

 

 

EDIT: As for atari joe's point about atari not being present at the '85 CES, I suggest he looks at my similar post i did in the ST section (it might not be on the first page though, considering how popular the St section is here)

Edited June 21, 2010 by carmel_andrews

[carmel_andrews]

Additionally, in more ways then one both the 7800 and xegs weren't doing atari or eachother any favours as they were essentially aimed at the same market (sort of) and were basically cancelling eachother out

 

Perhaps i am missing something here but wasn't tramiels manta/doctrine 'penny piching when and where possible' then why bother with developing/designing a whole new game system (the xegs) when the original 7800's design was already capable of that (i.e the 7800 with expansion port/reversed SIO port and the computer keyboard)

 

All tramiel had to do was hack some XE or XL upgrade into a 7800 cart and add a reversed sio port/expansion port onto the cart and as the french say 'et voila' a 7800 that can play a8 games (and gives the 7800 computer ability) and not only that for cheaper then marketing/selling and producing a whole new (poor perfoming) system (I say that as a long standing a8 user)

 

Perhaps atari didn't learn from the mistake they made with the 5200, remembering that atari already had a game system it was marketing and selling (and since it's launch) that already had 5200 capabilities, namely the atari 400 (which as stated was sold/marketed as a games system), therefore cancelling out the 5200, because from a consumers point of view, why should i buy a 5200 (which is a 400 without a keyboard) when i can have the same quality games (and more) on my 400

 

Seems as though atari might have been good at designing products but the follow through and timing of those products is what let atari down, namely too many systems in the same market competing for the same customer, eventually one of your systems is going to become a cropper, like the XEGS was (and also the 5200)

Edited June 21, 2010 by carmel_andrews

[DracIsBack]

 

Perhaps i am missing something here but wasn't tramiels manta/doctrine 'penny piching when and where possible' then why bother with developing/designing a whole new game system (the xegs) when the original 7800's design was already capable of that (i.e the 7800 with expansion port/reversed SIO port and the computer keyboard)

 

While I agree that it didn't make sense to try and support multiple game systems on limited resources, this article from 'back in the day' may give you some views on why the XEGS was created. In short, they had a ton of inventory of software, hardware and parts - and they weren't getting sales of the 65XE and 130XE because of shrinking distribution networks.

 

Plus (I'm hypothesizing), there was a library of pre-existing XE games that could be licensed for cheap and put on cartridge that would be more competitive with the NES lineup than the 2600 games and cheaper to develop than new 7800 games.

 

 

 

-----------------------------

We come again to that perpetual question: is Atari intent on killing the 8-bits?

 

One way to answer that would be to give you a tour of our warehouse. If you could see the number of 8-bit computers and software in inventory, you'd know we are highly motivated to keep the line going.

 

 

Regarding the new XE Game System, which on the first glance is a slap in the face to those who know how powerful the 8-bitters are -- this system is purely a strategic move on our part. In order to keep the 8-bit line going, we must do two things:

 

 

1. Get the computers available in more stores, and

2. Get new software developed for them.

 

 

Software is not being developed by and large because of problem #1. So which stores do we go to? The mass merchants, who sold the bulk of the hundreds of thousands (not, unfortunately, millions) of Atari 8-bit

computers out there, are currently retreating from the computer business. K-Mart carries NO computers. Ditto for Montgomery Wards. And for J.C. Penney's.

 

 

On the other hand, these same stores are doing a fabulous business in game systems like Nintendo, Sega, and, of course, Atari.

 

 

The solution, from a business point of view, was to develop a product that would be appealing to the mass merchants (and also to the public which buys

there), one that also accomplishes the corporate objective of revitalizing the 8-bit line.

 

 

So what we have with the XE Game System is essentially a 65XE in disguise. Internally it contains 64K of RAM, the standard OS and BASIC in ROM, two

joystick ports, SIO port, etc. It is completely compatible with the current 8-bit line, including software.

 

 

Physically it is more appealing to those who don't want a computer but who do want to play games. The main console simply has the 4 console keys from

the XE (Start, Select, Option, and Reset), plus the cartridge port and connectors. The keyboard is a separate unit which plugs into the console.

 

 

When someone buys the XE Game System, they get the complete package -- console, keyboard, light gun, and 3 programs (including a new version of Sublogic's Flight Simulator including scenery, all on a single cartridge).

 

 

We expect stores to do a great business in these. We'll make available the current library of cartridge software, plus we're converting some disk programs into cartridge format for this system. As time goes by, we expect

to see dramatic increases in sales for 8-bit software -- hopefully, this will also include practical applications as well as games. This should in turn encourage developers to create new titles for the 8-bits.

 

 

Once things get moving again in the mass merchants, the current supply of 8-bit computers should also get moving through the dealers -- after all, they make a better value than the game systems, and take up less space.

 

 

So, those few of you out there who are looking at Atari management as the evil group who are plotting to quash the 8-bit line, you have it all wrong. We're trying hard to keep things moving forward. Without the distribution

and the software, no amount of advertising and new hardware development could work. The XE Game System is our best hope to keep things moving.

--

--->Neil Harris, Director of Marketing Communications, Atari Corporation

UUCP: ...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil

GEnie: NHARRIS/ WELL: neil / BIX: neilharris / Delphi: NEIlharris

CIS: 70007,1135 / Atari BBS 408-745-5308 / Usually the OFFICIAL Atari opinion

[Ben_Larson]

What I do bemoan is the immense lack of respect Atari had for Whistles. That's just inexcusable. European courts should have placed more regulations on Atari to force them into having more whistles.

Well they thought about it. Thing is, for starters, the US isn't a signatory to the International Convention on Video Game Whistles. Second, it's easy to say now with the benefit of hindsight that someone should have levied fines on Atari or something, but you have to remember, this was all during the S&L crisis back in the States. Nobody in Europe wanted to exacerbate the economic crisis across the pond and possibly start a trade war over Atari's stubborn whistle intransigence, and of course US regulators had their own hands full at the time...

Edited June 22, 2010 by Ben_Larson

[BenG76]

We should have Whistle Hero for the 7800. Now that would be awesome.

[accousticguitar]

You want bells with that?

[carmel_andrews]

You want bells with that?

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like someone's been at the whiskey

[CRV]

Atari wasnt even AT the 1985 CES yet Nintendo showed up with their first prototype the Nintendo Advanced Video System.

 

As usual, you're wrong. Atari Corp. at 1985 CES!

 

...he put the 7800 on the backburner till 86 ...

 

The 7800 was never put on the backburner.

Edited June 23, 2010 by CRV

[82atari5200]

I agree! It's the games that made it hard for people to see the 7800 for what it was worth. If we could come out with a whole new set of games, it might bring the system back into light and cause an upsurge of fans.

And maybe, just maybe we could bring back 8-tracks, Betamax, Cellphones the size of bricks and those awesome rabbit ears on top of your tv that allowed you to get a whopping 3 channels, (if you were lucky) to watch. Let's get Disney to make an animatronic of Ronald Reagan to make our journey back to the 80's complete...At the very least we'd have an awesome President again and we'd only know the Original Trilogy

[lisalover1]

Bigger is better, right?

Riiiiight.

Edited June 25, 2010 by lisalover1

[tz101]

Funny I don't remember all the NES whistles. Y, Zelda and Adventure of Link had whistles, but where were they in SMB 1 or 2? Alright, SMB3 used them with the raccoon suit for flight, but that's about it as far as whistles go in that game.

 

Other than those few games, NES was relatively devoid of whistles as far as I recall.

[4Ks]

Actually, yes. Yes it would.

 

 

Off topic but could you please not post in purple? Your posts look like those lame Geronimo Stilton books.

[mbd30]

Would the Warp Whistles be a good name for a band?

[Chuck D. Head]

Would the Warp Whistles be a good name for a band?

Ummm, well it would be, except there is a local punk band called the Meat Whistles and that is the first thing I thought of. Morgan

[Atari Joe]

Here's a fresh new Atari-themed 7800 Wallpaper I thought I'd share with you guys! It's not quite a Whistle but I still think its cool

 

edit: i liked this so much i decided to make it it's own topic. sorry if that kindof makes this one a double-post of sorts.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Atari Joe

[urborg]

Atari 7800 was beaten by NES and even by SMS, but... 7800 was the only console which could possibly save the world from NES domination. In 1984 it was an excellent piece of hardware. In 1986 it was already too late, due to nintendo's contracts. But even than Atari was doing nothing to promote it. Tramiel didn't want to spend money on promotion, instead he cut the price of the unit as low as possible. Console sales were not so bad as many thinks - they manage to sell about 3750000 in total. But for cheap console nobody want to produce good (expensive) games. Many games were projected to 32 kb cartridges, which results in poor quality. Tramiel wasn't interested in consoles and didn't want to put money and effort in promotion or development. Result of such an attitude we know...

[goriddle]

Isn't there a whistle sound in some of the sports games? As for Chuck Norris, Superkicks is playable on the 7800. Good enough for me!

[Atari Joe]

Nicely said, Urborg!

[Chuck D. Head]

Console sales were not so bad as many thinks - they manage to sell about 3750000 in total.

 

Uborg, Is that right? 3,750,000? I not saying, I'm asking. That is many times more than I would have expected. I wonder what the cost of production was compared to sale price. Morgan

[The_Laird]

Console sales were not so bad as many thinks - they manage to sell about 3750000 in total.

 

Uborg, Is that right? 3,750,000? I not saying, I'm asking. That is many times more than I would have expected. I wonder what the cost of production was compared to sale price. Morgan

 

That was a figure Curt Vendel quoted from official Atari docs quite recently and is ONLY sales in North America. I would love to know what the European sales figures were.