What's stopping you programming the Jaguar?

[Tyrant]

I've been in the Jag scene for a long time now, sometimes more active, sometimes less. I've seen trends and patterns emerge and develop, and watched as the same topics are repeated over and over. One thing I have come to realise about this community is that there are a lot of very creative people in it, who have great ideas for what would make interesting games on the Jag, but who, for one reason or another, seem to feel they are incapable of bringing them to life. This thread is designed to address that.

 

Coding on the Jaguar really isn't all that difficult. It requires a bit of time and effort to learn how to do it, and it is perhaps not the easiest platform to work with, but these are quite frankly a very bad reason not to want to even try.

 

So my challenge to each and every one of you is this: You've almost certainly got ideas in your head, what exactly is stopping you making them a reality?

And, on the flip-side, what help would you like from the existing developers to make things easier for you?

Edited July 1, 2010 by Tyrant

[Zerosquare]

Lack of free time, mostly

[Atari_Owl]

I'll be interested to see what people say in this thread

Edited July 1, 2010 by Atari_Owl

[The_Laird]

I personally have a ton of ideas and even have finished game proposals that other people have looked at and liked alot.

 

Unfortunately I have no clue how to code in assembler and don't really know where to start or what I need. The few tutorials I have looked at just confused the crap out of me within minutes and that always kinda scares me off. I still write games in basic and wrote some stuff in STOS when I was younger so have an understanding of coding just no where near the level I would like.

[Atari_Owl]

I'm grateful to The_Laird for posting reasons - the poll is helpful in giving a rough idea - but personal comments specifying people's concerns are even more helpful

[CD-i]

I'd love to, and maybe have the time and spirit (even a skunk) but i have absolutely no coding knowledge, nothing. and it seems like I never get the idea how to code, when i look into the guides posted here (which all require programming skills). seems like i have to learn any code language first ^^

[carmel_andrews]

that's a good question, how do you program ON a jaguar

 

I haven't managed to consume either a 68000 or c/c++ etc programming manual yet and i am not sure my degestive system will like it (seems as though some people though have consumed such things)

[jaybird3rd]

It seems to me that there are at least three obstacles that prevent the Jaguar from becoming more widely adopted as a homebrew platform:

 

The first has to do with the relative difficulty of creating games that really exploit the platform. It is possible for one person working alone to create a Jaguar game, provided that the game concept is simple enough: puzzle games, strategy games, and so forth. But these types of games would usually work equally well on older, more "mainstream" homebrew consoles like the Atari 7800 (albeit with certain compromises in the audiovisuals). To create a game that really "pushes" the Jaguar and takes advantage of its strengths would potentially require: professionally-produced 2D or 3D graphics, models, textures, sound effects, music, video, sophisticated AI, creative level designs, and any number of other possible assets that are beyond what one programmer can realistically produce in a reasonable amount of time and in a professional way. The larger the number of assets that need to be created, the larger the number of people that will need to be involved, which becomes exponentially more difficult with each additional person since everyone involved will essentially be working for free; money wouldn't be an incentive because there isn't enough of it to be made selling Jaguar games. Even if you somehow manage to put together a development team that is in full agreement about what the game should be and that wants to work on it just for the fun of it (you should be making buku bucks as a producer for a major publisher if you can really do that, by the way), you're still faced with the task of coordinating everyone's efforts and maintaining the momentum needed to finish the project, which is difficult when you're working on a niche platform. A talented team of that size could just as easily create a game for a current platform, which would bring them more money and more enthusiastic user feedback.

 

A second issue is the economics of Jaguar game manufacturing and distribution. On "mainstream" homebrew platforms like the 2600, there are established processes that support the production of new games: sources for new cartridge boards, sources for new labels/boxes/manuals, truckloads of inexpensive ROM chips, popular distribution channels, etc. Cartridge shells are still a challenge because of the expense of plastic tooling, but there is an ample supply of old cartridges that continues to serve as a source of "donors." In contrast, it's much more expensive and difficult to manufacture games for the Jaguar: as I understand it, the cartridge hardware is much more costly, and the main alternative (the JagCD) is too scarce. A new alternative is needed, such as an inexpensive and easy flash cartridge which can support digital game distribution (and which is not designed primarily as a development tool), but this idea clashes with the community's bizarre paranoia over software piracy. I've complained about that in the past and won't repeat those arguments here. This leads me to my final point ...

 

The third issue has to do with the characteristic "spirit" of the Jaguar community. Every group of enthusiasts that has coalesced around every classic console has its own unique nature and personality. I don't think I need to get into specifics here, but suffice it to say, there are certain elements in the Jaguar community that make it much more abrasive, confrontational, and unpleasant than other communities. This does not inspire me to create new games for the Jaguar.

[JagChris]

I have been working on learning programming for about two or three years now off and on. I got a good handle now on how C works. What I dont have a great handle on is programming techniques. I'm learning those slowly. y biggest obstacle is my IQ. Its achingly average. So it takes me more persistence, er a lot more persistence to learn something than say AO, or Tbird, Tursi etc.

 

We need more tutorials on GPU assembly. Not 68k assembly. There are plenty of tuts out there on that.

 

Broke record time. We NEED a C compiler that targets the GPU. For this community to have a decent heartbeat we need it. To rebuild soemthing like the DOOM engine properly as the tools are now it would be completely in GPU assembly. I could see doing the renderer in asm, that would make sense. But the whole thing? Looking at the sources, the 68k seems to control and display the status bar graphics. It seems to run most of the collision detection. All the AI. Tracking positions of doors/platforms and what they are hitting when they raise/lower. I think it even drew the graphics for the doors.

 

That would take some time, even with Gorf coding it who loves GPU asm. And it would be done sometime before the heat death of the Universe.

 

We need a proper C compiler. Goddamnit. Even those who know how, to build an entire game in asm seems to be just too time consuming.

Edited July 1, 2010 by JagChris

[Starcat]

Personally I think there are a lot of creative people out there, who could contribute to a game.

 

I believe if one puts his mind to it, he can learn almost anything up to a certain point.

It's my impression that a lot of people feel they could do it, but just don't do it. They should at least give it a try, as it would probably teach them a lot of the difficulties of game development, even if they feel it's not for them.

It might make them appreciate homebrew games a lot more.

 

From a programming point of view, I think every person who really wants to learn it, can learn to program a bit. It's just a matter of time and understanding the right way of thinking. And if assembler seems to difficult, you can always learn C these days. It's a lot less abstract. You don't have to reach for the stars with every project. Starting small is better than not starting at all.

 

Depending on what you want to create this is just scratching the surface and you may need skilled people to help you with other aspects (such as game design, graphics, level design, writing, music), but there are a lot of game ideas you could create just with this knowledge.

 

Regarding the "lack of time" statement, it's of course true. It takes a lot of time, patience and work to create your own games, even small projects.

Whatever the reason is why you don't create your own games, you can always help and support other developers.

[Atari_Owl]

"The RISCs are vital to getting maximum performance from the Jag"

 

Whilst the statement above is of course completely true - it doesn't mean that decent, fun games can't be coded with very limited use of these chips.

 

There's the sinster mod player out there, the blitter can be controlled from the 68k quite adequately. There's a lot of 68k code and tutorials and even the possibility of using C on it.

A simple, fun project can thus be launched in 2D using mainly the 68k - and that would be a good place to start, then as one's skill develops, moving sections to the RISCs could provide a way of maturing one's abilities - i worry sometimes that by placing too much stress on the GPU we put too much pressure on people to push the jag to its limits - a lot of fun games don't need to do that.

 

Having said that i think it would be a terrible pity if nobody tried to push the boundaries - maybe there's room for both>

[kevincal]

I think most of us won't attempt programming because it seems so confusing, mathematical, tedious, hard, time consuming etc. I have DREAMED of making a super cool Jaguar game, but it won't happen until I have unlimited free time and money. Maybe in... 30 years? LOL

[Atari_Owl]

I think most of us won't attempt programming because it seems so confusing, mathematical, tedious, hard, time consuming etc. I have DREAMED of making a super cool Jaguar game, but it won't happen until I have unlimited free time and money. Maybe in... 30 years? LOL

 

That's a fair point - i've been asked in the past to help people get started - and at the time i thought long at hard about it - but i didn't really know how or where to begin - its difficult then when one does not know what to ask and the other does not know how to begin to tell.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Atari_Owl

[TrekMD]

I don't know how and I doubt I can find the time needed to properly learn how.

[JagChris]

I think most of us won't attempt programming because it seems so confusing, mathematical, tedious, hard, time consuming etc. I have DREAMED of making a super cool Jaguar game, but it won't happen until I have unlimited free time and money. Maybe in... 30 years? LOL

 

It isnt easy. Right now I am getting frustrated over Makefiles. But I still keep trying. I'm pushing boundaries alright, but they are boundaries within myself.

[Atari_Owl]

For a small project one could probably get away with the simplest single input makefile and just "include" or "incbin" the relevent sub components and get on with learning the machine? That might make it more palatable.

[JagChris]

For a small project one could probably get away with the simplest single input makefile and just "include" or "incbin" the relevent sub components and get on with learning the machine? That might make it more palatable.

 

I am going in that direction. My task is to move the playground lessons over to Boz's XP tool setup and my makefile problem is converting all the calls to work with the new development setup. I'll have to attempt to strip down the Playground files to work as something simpler. Not easy cuz Gorf has a lot of includes in there, even

 

#include <kitchensink.h>

 

hahaaha oh god I kill me.

[philipj]

I've always wanted to make a 3D engine for the Jag... I've worked on the conceptual side of creating one; I even did an article on it a while back on another forum called "3D in a 2D Universe" to kick things off and stir up interest. I've always beleive that the Jag is a complete 2D monster and 2.5D is the way to go with the Jag because 2D is the Jags most strongest area of processing (Phase Zero anyone?). I still touch it from time to time and I certainly haven't let go of the idea... The Jag is just one of those systems where you really got to want to program for it if you're going to get any where with it.

 

Lately I've been looking at the Atari 8s since I purchased an 1200XL, studying how the Antic and GTIA works for various reasons... But these days I really have deal with real life first and the Atari Jaguar second. I hope to someday make a racing game for the Atari Jaguar as well as some other genera of games... My only concern is how much interest would be in new games for the Jag without the drama? That's why you really have to want to program the Jag if you want to get anything productive out of it and for me that's the possibility of making really cool Jag games.

[philipj]

I think most of us won't attempt programming because it seems so confusing, mathematical, tedious, hard, time consuming etc. I have DREAMED of making a super cool Jaguar game, but it won't happen until I have unlimited free time and money. Maybe in... 30 years? LOL

 

I can seem like from time to time.

[Starcat]

"The RISCs are vital to getting maximum performance from the Jag"

 

Whilst the statement above is of course completely true - it doesn't mean that decent, fun games can't be coded with very limited use of these chips.

 

There's the sinster mod player out there, the blitter can be controlled from the 68k quite adequately. There's a lot of 68k code and tutorials and even the possibility of using C on it.

A simple, fun project can thus be launched in 2D using mainly the 68k - and that would be a good place to start, then as one's skill develops, moving sections to the RISCs could provide a way of maturing one's abilities - i worry sometimes that by placing too much stress on the GPU we put too much pressure on people to push the jag to its limits - a lot of fun games don't need to do that.

 

Having said that i think it would be a terrible pity if nobody tried to push the boundaries - maybe there's room for both>

 

I fully agree with you. There seems to be too much talk about pushing the hardware to the boundaries, that people tend to forget that good design can make a game into an unforgettable gem without pushing the hardware to the limit, but simply using it well to deliver the experience the developer had in mind.

I think that's actually the main problem of today, it's all about graphics, people tend to forget that games are about fun, great gameplay and exploring different worlds. Doing things you can't do in the real world. Rather than just recreating the world we live in and ending up with so many uninspired and boring mass titles of today.

Of course the Jag can't deliver the same visuals as todays consoles, but developers shouldn't make the same mistake to underestimate the value of what a game actually is about: Gameplay.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more games push the Jaguar to its limits as well, but if I had to choose between pushing the system and great design, I would always choose great design.

So many people outside the community underestimate the Jaguar. But in a way it's easy to make the same mistake, when talking about pushing the Jaguar to its limit. The Jag is powerful enough to deliver a lot of great game ideas just fine. Not every idea needs to push the system to its limit. It just needs to push the game idea far enough to deliver the experience the developer had in mind.

Superfly DX is a good example, how fun and great looking a game can be, even though they used mainly the 68k and OP.

[JagChris]

"The RISCs are vital to getting maximum performance from the Jag"

 

Whilst the statement above is of course completely true - it doesn't mean that decent, fun games can't be coded with very limited use of these chips.

 

There's the sinster mod player out there, the blitter can be controlled from the 68k quite adequately. There's a lot of 68k code and tutorials and even the possibility of using C on it.

A simple, fun project can thus be launched in 2D using mainly the 68k - and that would be a good place to start, then as one's skill develops, moving sections to the RISCs could provide a way of maturing one's abilities - i worry sometimes that by placing too much stress on the GPU we put too much pressure on people to push the jag to its limits - a lot of fun games don't need to do that.

 

Having said that i think it would be a terrible pity if nobody tried to push the boundaries - maybe there's room for both>

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more games push the Jaguar to its limits as well, but if I had to choose between pushing the system and great design, I would always choose great design.

 

 

I agree with you. However if no one learns to push it to its limits, we will never get any closer to what we really want. Games that push the Jaguar and have great design.

[philipj]

"The RISCs are vital to getting maximum performance from the Jag"

 

Whilst the statement above is of course completely true - it doesn't mean that decent, fun games can't be coded with very limited use of these chips.

 

There's the sinster mod player out there, the blitter can be controlled from the 68k quite adequately. There's a lot of 68k code and tutorials and even the possibility of using C on it.

A simple, fun project can thus be launched in 2D using mainly the 68k - and that would be a good place to start, then as one's skill develops, moving sections to the RISCs could provide a way of maturing one's abilities - i worry sometimes that by placing too much stress on the GPU we put too much pressure on people to push the jag to its limits - a lot of fun games don't need to do that.

 

Having said that i think it would be a terrible pity if nobody tried to push the boundaries - maybe there's room for both>

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more games push the Jaguar to its limits as well, but if I had to choose between pushing the system and great design, I would always choose great design.

 

 

I agree with you. However if no one learns to push it to its limits, we will never get any closer to what we really want. Games that push the Jaguar and have great design.

 

Most definetly... Everyone bags on the Jag about this and that; about how it isn't a 64bit system and all of that nonsense... You know what I really would like to see what the Jag can do, but at the same time, I'd rather have games made for the jag system then no games made for it all. It's better to do a little at a time and then work your way up then to not do it all so I welcome any game development at this point.

[Gorf]

Nothing is 'stopping' me from coding the Jaguar. I however choose not to release the games I have planned without

a worthy renderer. The work is still being done. In the mean time I am doing a few mini games but they too take

time and I have very litle of that. Plus I am NOT depending on someone elses code to write them. I am writting

my own sprite engines and AI engines and what have you engines. All of which take time which is limited.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Gorf

[+poobah]

0) Tools, Tools, Tools... The Jag is crying for a decent dev tool set, sadly the odds of that happening are close to nil

 

1) Distribution Medium... As mentioned above, too few JagCDs, and carts are expensive. Need a simple flash board.

 

2) Community... Too secretive and adversarial. This seems to be getting a little better

 

3) Techniques... Follows on from 2, but but much of "how to accomplish X" hasn't been disclosed, and isn't readily discovered. On other platforms, people share new discoveries and techniques, not so much on Jag. (Tutorials on JS2 are a start, and the main code discussion has been very informative)

 

4) See 0!

[potatohead]

I've no interest at the moment in programming on this console. My hobby time is filled with 8 bit stuff and the Propeller chip.

 

That said, I do own one, and do follow the antics surrounding it. I've a few observations about this hobby in general that I think make sense on this thread.

 

The distribution comments ring true. For hobby programming, it's very important to either be able to code to a emulator that makes sense, or it needs to be a modest investment to be able to run code on the real deal. Barrier to entry on emulators should be just a download or two, working project to build and run, and whatever docs are available to people, and the emulation needs to be sane. In that scenario, people can jump in and see if they catch the fever.

 

Barrier to entry for running on the real deal should be $50 - $100, some home made cables, then the same downloads.

 

One thing I've noted is that expectations really matter. On a VCS, for example, expectations are low. It's possible to make a fun game, get it published through somebody equipped to do that, or distribute binaries for use on Harmony. A person can work for a coupla months, have a grand time, and others can see their work, appreciate it, and the whole thing kind of works. On the other end of the spectrum, pushing the console happens with more time invested, and perhaps completed projects and or demos along the way.

 

This varies by machine. In general, 8 bit computers come with expectations that are well aligned with somebody who wants to explore this stuff, and who doesn't want to make a second career out of it. Same with micros in general. There is good gaming going on Propeller and the ATMega chips that can reach NES quality, and even a bit above that. All one man band type stuff. I think I would put the 8 bit computers close to that --particularly when programmed in a medium level language, or with routines to help kick start things, or by modifying a project that exists.

 

The key thing to note is that there are two sets of expectations in play. It's possible to do a project and have others see and interact with it, without really pushing the machines, where everybody has a good time, and there is a crowd pushing things, where everybody kind of catches the buzz and the story of the machine goes on. (demos and such)

 

On the Jag, there isn't any lower end, modest expectation dynamic in play. I think there should be, and the reason I think that, is where else does the new blood come from? I've watched on CoCo, A8, VCS, the micros, and others to see people dip their toe in, get something they think is cool done, and others resonate with that, and a few of them just get sucked in to do greater things. That's important to have, because the whole affair is hobby, casual, and must fit in those little gaps in real life.

 

Seems to me, the Jag would be very well served with a Batari Basic type environment where renderer, I/O, Math, Sound, etc... is canned. From there, people can write to that core set of services and do stuff! Pretty fun stuff, IMHO, given what a Jag can do.

 

Some of them will bump into the limits, and that's your hook right there! They will pick up the other lower level tools, and start to learn stuff, break things, and there you go. New Jaggie

 

That should be coupled with a device that permits the running of things, and the breaking of existing things, and it needs to be unabashedly open, so those people who want to learn, play, do, tinker, simply can.

 

Either a console is dead, and people feel they can enjoy it on this level, or it's not, so which is it for the Jag?

 

I've got one, it's in a box, I know it's cool, I'm tempted to give it a play, but I don't see where the end game makes any real sense right now, and that's probably typical of a lot of potentials out there. The other machines, older machines were simple enough that people could just get at them and do stuff.

 

The bootstrapping I'm writing about happened organically, because the barriers to it, once the first few were addressed, remain very low, casual low.

 

IMHO, that kind of thing can happen on Jag, but I think it's going to take some effort from those able to initiate that bootstrapping, foundation kind of stuff to do so. It might happen down the road too. One never knows who might just jump in and get it right, or at the least, get started, but there will be fewer tries at it.