7800 Piggyback Expansion Module comes to life!

[GroovyBee]

I also saw that Beef Drop and Pac-Man Collection support the HSC... are there any other homebrews that save high scores?

 

I think that most of the 7800 games by PacManPlus should be HSC enabled. I know Failsafe is. Other games do save their high scores but use the SaveKey instead.

 

Are the added memory, pokey chip, and other expansions only there for potential developer use? Would any of the current 7800 carts/homebrews take advantage of these features, or only future homebrews that are written (or re-written) specifically to use the expansion module?

 

They aren't there just for developers. Any homebrew that uses XBOARD POKEY should enable POKEY in the expansion module. As far as I'm aware only Beef Drop and Froggie are XBOARD POKEY compatible.

 

At some point I'll hack both Commando and Ballblazer to be expansion module POKEY compatible too.

 

The main benefits of the expansion module will be games with better graphics and sound with the ability to save scores. From a developer point of view having loads of RAM available means that you can use quite different approaches to solving your problems. In my opinion this will lead to more "interesting" and advanced games.

[GroovyBee]

Another advantage of having loads of RAM is that you can start using compression/decompression algorithms so that more code and data can be stored on cart.

[Agent X]

I agree, for the most part. It's reminiscent of the Sega Genesis 32X, in that you're more or less bolting another system onto an existing one.

 

No, not at all.

 

The 32X added dual processors and new graphics hardware to support it.

 

This is akin to taking additional memory used in carts like JINKS and TOWER TOPPLER, sound chips were used in BALLBLAZER and COMMANDO and putting them onto one module instead of multiple carts. Throw in 7800 equivalents of the mappers that the NES had in some of its carts and you get the idea.

 

But instead of dealing with multiple carts (some of which are getting scarcer to pillage), one module.

 

Yeah, I understand that. I still think the 32X comparison is valid. IIRC, The 32X project grew partially out of the expense of producing the Virtua Racing cartridge for Genesis, with its special SVP chip. Sega was considering an SVP module which would have other cartridges piggyback onto it, but scrapped that idea and went with the 32X instead.

 

Also, I have to say that I wish the price was a little lower. Something like this would be highly tempting at the $30-$50 mark, but at $79-$99 it's harder to justify, especially considering that I only paid $79.99 for my 7800 back in 1987.

 

Adjusted for inflation, your $79.99 purchase would be about $149.08 in 2008, adjusted for inflation! And like-wise, a $79 module in 2009, would be about $42.00 in 1987!

 

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi

 

True, but $79-$99 is still a rather high price for a product that stands to fragment an already limited niche market.

 

At this point (and particularly with the price in mind), it's not really a question of whether such an expansion could be done, but rather if it should be done. As ZylonBane said, part of the allure of classic video game consoles is recognizing and working within the limitations of the hardware. It's almost defeating the purpose of the 7800 if the games are running exclusively on some Frankenstein configuration--they cease to truly be "7800" games anymore. It's throwing more hardware at the 7800 "just for the sake of it". If the 7800 doesn't have the audiovisual punch for a particular project, then maybe we should look toward something like a TurboGrafx-16, Genesis, or SNES instead.

 

Also, I have to say that I wish the price was a little lower. Something like this would be highly tempting at the $30-$50 mark, but at $79-$99 it's harder to justify, especially considering that I only paid $79.99 for my 7800 back in 1987.

 

Its not 1987 any more! I don't think you appreciate the upfront costs. Its not cheap having a custom injection mold made for the outer case. Plus you have to factor in the size of the market. If this were a market with potential sales in the thousands it could be sold at a lower price. However, I suspect it will be sold in the low hundreds over its lifetime.

 

Hmm, but is a "custom injection mold" essential? I assume that the POKEYs and the RAM are coming from scavenged 7800 cartridges (as was implied earlier in this thread)...couldn't there be a solution that recycles those (now gutted) cartridge cases? It might not be the prettiest thing aesthetically, but if it could knock another $30 or $40 off of the final price, I'd be in favor of it (at least as an option).

 

I'm curious how games for the "expanded" system would be utilizing the hardware, both the 7800's original hardware and the improvements offered by this module. The best scenario that I can think of would be to have "enhanced" 7800 cartridges that could still be played on a stock 7800, but show off noticeably improved graphics and sound when played on a 7800 with the expansion module.

 

As a developer I won't be creating "light" versions of my games targeted at the expansion module. If you want the full game experience you'll have to buy the game and the expansion module.

 

I wouldn't want you to create a separate "light" version of the game. I'm suggesting one cartridge that could work on either an expanded or an unexpanded 7800. On an unexpanded 7800, you'd have the standard graphics and sounds. On an expanded 7800, you'd be treated to all of the extra graphics and sounds that the expansion module could muster. Compare this with how most early Game Boy Color games could be played in monochrome on an original Game Boy, and you get the idea.

[DracIsBack]

Yeah, I understand that. I still think the 32X comparison is valid.

 

This isn't changing the 7800 from an 8-bit to a 16-bit system, whereas the 32X increased the Genesis from 16-bit to 32-bit. It doesn't add new graphics modes, new colors or anything like that.

 

IIRC, The 32X project grew partially out of the expense of producing the Virtua Racing cartridge for Genesis, with its special SVP chip. Sega was considering an SVP module which would have other cartridges piggyback onto it, but scrapped that idea and went with the 32X instead.

 

 

The 32X added a lot more than the SVP chip did. Also, given that both Virtua Racer Genesis and 32X came out in 1994, the timing doesn't seem to align ...

 

 

True, but $79-$99 is still a rather high price for a product that stands to fragment an already limited niche market.

 

You also have the choice not to buy it. What I don't get is why people are stirring up such discontent about it?

Edited July 18, 2010 by DracIsBack

[Agent X]

Yeah, I understand that. I still think the 32X comparison is valid.

 

This isn't changing the 7800 from an 8-bit to a 16-bit system, whereas the 32X increased the Genesis from 16-bit to 32-bit. It doesn't add new graphics modes, new colors or anything like that.

 

I'm not talking about "bitness", but the concept of augmenting the system via hardware expansion in order to do something the stock system isn't normally capable of.

 

IIRC, The 32X project grew partially out of the expense of producing the Virtua Racing cartridge for Genesis, with its special SVP chip. Sega was considering an SVP module which would have other cartridges piggyback onto it, but scrapped that idea and went with the 32X instead.

 

 

The 32X added a lot more than the SVP chip did. Also, given that both Virtua Racer Genesis and 32X came out in 1994, the timing doesn't seem to align ...

 

I had to search for this one, as I knew I read it somewhere...

 

http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id=37&title=Sega's%20SVP%20Chip:%20The%20Road%20not%20Taken?

 

The only real problem was that the chip's inclusion practically doubled the price of the game, since it was so expensive to produce. To get around this problem, Sega planned to sell the SVP in a separate cartridge that would work in the same fashion as Galoob's Game Genie. This way, gamers would only have to purchase the technology once. However, Sega canned the project for unknown reasons and instead chose to focus its efforts on more powerful hardware — namely the 32X. Thus the SVP chip died a quick death, leaving the technology's untapped potential to fade with time.

 

True, but $79-$99 is still a rather high price for a product that stands to fragment an already limited niche market.

 

You also have the choice not to buy it. What I don't get is why people are stirring up such discontent about it?

 

Yes, I do have that choice. I think I might like to buy it (depending on software support), but at the same time I see nothing wrong with being honest and giving constructive criticism that might result in a better product in the end.

 

From what I know about the product now, it doesn't sound like something that would be worth $79-$99 to me. Sorry, that's just my honest opinion. But maybe there's more to it. Maybe there are secret features that have yet to be revealed. Maybe there are great games in development that we haven't seen yet, which would justify having the module. Maybe the reduced cost in developing games for the module could be passed on to the end user, which would also justify it. I think it's good to raise these issues (and the price point issue) now, before the product is finalized (in hopes that the final product can be improved), rather than wait until it's out and then nothing more can be done. I'm willing to keep an open mind, but I'd need much more convincing to overcome that price hurdle.

[Mord]

I'm not talking about "bitness", but the concept of augmenting the system via hardware expansion in order to do something the stock system isn't normally capable of.

 

By your argument, you surely also disagree with any cartridge on the 7800 that makes use of a pokey or extra ram. They are doing the exact same thing as this module is doing - augmenting the system via hardware expansion in order to do something the stock system isn't normally capable of.

[Agent X]

I'm not talking about "bitness", but the concept of augmenting the system via hardware expansion in order to do something the stock system isn't normally capable of.

 

By your argument, you surely also disagree with any cartridge on the 7800 that makes use of a pokey or extra ram. They are doing the exact same thing as this module is doing - augmenting the system via hardware expansion in order to do something the stock system isn't normally capable of.

 

Well, by extension, any cartridge that I plug into the 7800 is making the system do something it couldn't do otherwise. I can't turn on my 7800 without a cartridge in the slot and expect to play Food Fight or Ballblazer.

 

And I don't "disagree" with the concept of hardware expansion at all. I was questioning the value proposition. If it's going to cost $79-$99 for what you yourself are saying is "the exact same thing" as what several old 7800 games were able to pull off (adding POKEY or extra RAM, which they accomplished without massive increases in cartridge cost to the consumer) then they really should be able to find some way of whittling the cost and/or adding extra value to the package. As it stands now, it's creating a new platform that's segregated from the 7800, and I don't understand the benefit apart from being a curiosity piece. As I said, I'm open to explanation of what this module would offer someone like myself.

[GroovyBee]

Hmm, but is a "custom injection mold" essential? I assume that the POKEYs and the RAM are coming from scavenged 7800 cartridges (as was implied earlier in this thread)

 

You assumed wrong. No carts for the 7800 have 128K of RAM and no carts will die for POKEYs either. Brand new RAMs will be used and Curt has a source for POKEY.

 

...couldn't there be a solution that recycles those (now gutted) cartridge cases? It might not be the prettiest thing aesthetically, but if it could knock another $30 or $40 off of the final price, I'd be in favor of it (at least as an option).

 

So you want a load of cart cases glued together to make the case? That won't look particularly good. Plus you'd have to factor in the time to construct it.

 

I wouldn't want you to create a separate "light" version of the game. I'm suggesting one cartridge that could work on either an expanded or an unexpanded 7800.

 

By definition a version that can run on both will be the light version. If your game needs 128K of RAM its impossible to run without it .

 

On an unexpanded 7800, you'd have the standard graphics and sounds. On an expanded 7800, you'd be treated to all of the extra graphics and sounds that the expansion module could muster.

 

You also have to factor in the reduction in game play, level sizes, audio quality, CPU cycle increases, etc. It takes long enough to produce a homebrew game as it is. I will not be doubling the development cycle by creating two versions. Why should I? When in theory I could create make two completely different games in that time.

[GroovyBee]

It doesn't add new graphics modes, new colors or anything like that.

 

That's not quite correct. There is a new graphics mode that comes from a mapper. Well, its more of an adaptation of the existing ones. More details nearer the release time .

[GroovyBee]

Yes, I do have that choice. I think I might like to buy it (depending on software support), but at the same time I see nothing wrong with being honest and giving constructive criticism that might result in a better product in the end.

 

It seems to me that your main issue is the price. The expansion module will cost what it costs. If you don't like the price then vote with your wallet and don't buy it. That is your choice as a consumer. It is also our choice as developers and homebrewers to help Curt make a peripheral for the 7800 that allows much more freedom in the type of games we can create for the system. More freedom (to me) means that games that are more fun to develop. More games for the 7800 is always a good thing.

[JohnnyBlaze]

Here's a question that I don't think anyone on here has answered yet:

 

What games if any will launch with this device? You know a hardware launch always needs a good selection of titles. May I suggest remakes of certain 7800 titles using the extra features(like Donkey Kong, Galaga, or Pole Position II) or finished prototypes remade for the expansion module(Missing In Action, Rampart, or Klax), or completely new titles made for the expansion module(Pac-Man, Tempest, or maybe a sequel to an old game like BallBlazer or Yar's Revenge). I don't know, I guess I see the bigger picture of what this device can do.

 

I feel like a PR rep. Anyways, any chance of going public with this(like adverts in Digital Press or Retro Gamer) or will it just be sold through here?

[nathanallan]

Johnny,

 

I could be wrong but I believe it will be sold here and Curt's website. Not quoting but so far I think that is how he will sell them.

 

Oh, the online publishers will see it and tout it, to be sure.

[DracIsBack]

That's not quite correct. There is a new graphics mode that comes from a mapper. Well, its more of an adaptation of the existing ones. More details nearer the release time .

 

My mistake.

 

What I was trying to convey (perhaps weakly) was that this was different than the 32X which suddenly made the Genesis able to display 32,000 colors at once instead of 64 on the Genesis, could process something like 40 million instructions per second (vs what - 1 million on Genny?) etc.

 

Guess Agent X and I will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Maybe there are great games in development that we haven't seen yet, which would justify having the module.

 

This will be the turning point for a lot of people. To be honest, it will for me too! But looking at the individuals who are working on it, I have faith. They're going about it the right way by preparing both hardware and software simultaneously. I've seen a few projects on AA where people create cool hardware, but it's too hard to install if you don't know electronics or is not supported by much out of the gate.

 

What games if any will launch with this device? You know a hardware launch always needs a good selection of titles.

 

CGE2K10 will be the ultimate test.

 

Classic Gaming Expo is in less than 2 weeks ...

Edited July 18, 2010 by DracIsBack

[Robert M]

Alright, this is the million dollar question that I did not see anyone else ask and I am not skilled enough in hardware to know the answer myself.

 

Will Maria be able to access graphics stored in the expansion RAM in 2 cycles or will it be the same 3 cycle access we see with the ROM today?

 

If you don't know what I am talking about, 2 cycle graphic byte access would increase the number of pixels the 7800 can render per scanline between 10 to 30% depending on the size of sprites being drawn.

[Agent X]

Hmm, but is a "custom injection mold" essential? I assume that the POKEYs and the RAM are coming from scavenged 7800 cartridges (as was implied earlier in this thread)

 

You assumed wrong. No carts for the 7800 have 128K of RAM and no carts will die for POKEYs either. Brand new RAMs will be used and Curt has a source for POKEY.

 

Ah, that's very cool, then! I did not realize that you had sources for the POKEYs.

 

Also, I suppose recycling the cartridge cases would result in a unit that look more like a kludge. Upon further thought, a custom case probably is better.

 

On an unexpanded 7800, you'd have the standard graphics and sounds. On an expanded 7800, you'd be treated to all of the extra graphics and sounds that the expansion module could muster.

 

You also have to factor in the reduction in game play, level sizes, audio quality, CPU cycle increases, etc. It takes long enough to produce a homebrew game as it is. I will not be doubling the development cycle by creating two versions. Why should I? When in theory I could create make two completely different games in that time.

 

OK, I understand what you're saying (especially with the RAM boost in mind). Maybe I should ask if it's possible to create a game that works with the expansion module, which would also be playable with reduced quality on an unexpanded system (even if you yourself are not going that route).

 

Yes, I do have that choice. I think I might like to buy it (depending on software support), but at the same time I see nothing wrong with being honest and giving constructive criticism that might result in a better product in the end.

 

It seems to me that your main issue is the price. The expansion module will cost what it costs. If you don't like the price then vote with your wallet and don't buy it. That is your choice as a consumer. It is also our choice as developers and homebrewers to help Curt make a peripheral for the 7800 that allows much more freedom in the type of games we can create for the system. More freedom (to me) means that games that are more fun to develop. More games for the 7800 is always a good thing.

 

Yes, to me the main obstacle is the price. I really don't want this to be relegated to "Don't like it? Then don't buy it." though. I don't give up that easily. That's why I want to learn what the benefits are--I don't want to write off the prospects. I think I'd really have to see what software is being cooked up for it, however. The price is kind of high, and I'd like to have some assurance that there's going to be a fair amount of support from the community and not just one or two games.

 

Anyway, your responses above have begun to address some of my concerns, so I do thank you for that.

 

Maybe there are great games in development that we haven't seen yet, which would justify having the module.

 

This will be the turning point for a lot of people. To be honest, it will for me too! But looking at the individuals who are working on it, I have faith. They're going about it the right way by preparing both hardware and software simultaneously. I've seen a few projects on AA where people create cool hardware, but it's too hard to install if you don't know electronics or is not supported by much out of the gate.

 

Yeah, you're right. I'm certainly still interested--I guess I'll just have to sit back and be patient to see what the software is like when it's revealed.

[Underball]

I think the reason we're seeing some backlash here is because of all the questions still surrounding it. Tech specs aren't enough to sell a system to people. The developers of this expansion module are expecting folks to get all excited and ready to plunk down $100ish for..... What exactly? We don't know about any games for it. It doesn't enhance the existing library save a couple of pokey titles and the hsc.

 

Without marketing the great new games it will deliver, there really isn't a whole lot to get excited about unless you are a game developer yourself. That limits it to about 5 people.

 

Regular people/non developers need to know how awesome the GAMES are going to be.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Underball

[Curt Vendel]

Actually that is totally incorrect, you are NOT bolting an entirely new system or any system at all onto the 7800...

 

The module adds memory (in a way to allow the system to free up resources to allow more complex games to be achieved), audio and high score capabilities, with the ability to open it up to allow existing computer peripherals to be plugged in and used with it. There is no CPU, MCU or other external processor within this, its all done within the lines of what could've been done all along back in 1984 with the system, so its extending the systems capabilities, not adding a second or foreign system ontop of the 7800.

 

Products like this, no matter how technically impressive, entirely miss the point of coding on classic consoles. Part and parcel of coding on antique hardware is that it's technologically limited, so you suck it up and deal with it. The challenge is the entire point. If you don't want to deal with it, then why are you bothering? Go write Flash games instead.

 

And from a gamer's perspective-- Once you slap on this module, it's no longer an Atari 7800. It's a... I dunno... Curtari Vendelsystem. I have fond nostalgic memories of the Atari 7800, which is why homebrews for it still interest me. The Vendelsystem, on the other hand, I couldn't possibly care less about. If I want a version of Donkey Kong with better sound, I'll just fire up MAME. Ultimately, it all makes about as much sense as going to a Civil War reenactment and handing out AK-47s.

 

This isn't even addressing the installed base problem. The 7800 fan base is already pretty damn small. Fracturing it even further seems foolish at best. Even when major console manufacturers have attempted to introduce expansion modules, it's never been particularly successful.

 

I agree, for the most part. It's reminiscent of the Sega Genesis 32X, in that you're more or less bolting another system onto an existing one.

 

Also, I have to say that I wish the price was a little lower. Something like this would be highly tempting at the $30-$50 mark, but at $79-$99 it's harder to justify, especially considering that I only paid $79.99 for my 7800 back in 1987.

 

I'm curious how games for the "expanded" system would be utilizing the hardware, both the 7800's original hardware and the improvements offered by this module. The best scenario that I can think of would be to have "enhanced" 7800 cartridges that could still be played on a stock 7800, but show off noticeably improved graphics and sound when played on a 7800 with the expansion module.

[Bakasama]

Here's a question that I don't think anyone on here has answered yet:

 

What games if any will launch with this device? You know a hardware launch always needs a good selection of titles. May I suggest remakes of certain 7800 titles using the extra features(like Donkey Kong, Galaga, or Pole Position II) or finished prototypes remade for the expansion module(Missing In Action, Rampart, or Klax), or completely new titles made for the expansion module(Pac-Man, Tempest, or maybe a sequel to an old game like BallBlazer or Yar's Revenge). I don't know, I guess I see the bigger picture of what this device can do.

 

There's hints that some of those being worked on. Some developers just don't want to make any announcements until they feel it's ready for the public. You could check the earlier replies to get an idea what's being worked on. I'm looking forward to what opcode is working on and I expect Groovybee to have something to wow you.

[Underball]

Can I make a request?

 

No more kidsy animal/bug themed games. Nintendo has enough of all that Yoshi crap. We don't need it on the 7800 too.

 

More high end shooters/platformers/arcade ports/rpgs please.

[+swlovinist]

The 7800 expansion will not be the end of 7800 console only homebrews. Already there has been some AMAZING titles. In the future I see enough demand for both an expansion board and standard console releases. I am sure that there are some amazing things being worked on that will make people on the fence jump on board.

 

Count me in for one of the people that will buy the expansion board and support ongoing software for it.

[DracIsBack]

There's hints that some of those being worked on. Some developers just don't want to make any announcements until they feel it's ready for the public

 

It's called planning a launch event! CGE is it ... and it's not far away now ...

[potatohead]

Re: Price, support, etc...

 

One release title for a PS3 or 360 can easily hit $60. Seems to me, buying the expansion, and a home brew or three would land somewhere in the $200 range right?

 

Well, three new games can hit $180.

 

Seems to me, this project is awesome! The chance to add on to an old favorite in such a friendly way is a no brainer. If a few home brews target it, the whole thing is golden in my book. Honestly, that's a modest price for such a small niche.

 

Rock on guys! Now, I've gotta score a 7800 with some plastic around it. The two I had were seriously beat up, ending up just the boards, which a well known developer here has for testing

[atariksi]

...with the ability to open it up to allow existing computer peripherals to be plugged in and used with it. ...

 

So there's a PIA in the expansion allowing for the Proceed/interrupt/command/motor lines on the SIO port and hooked to DB9 port as well or are POKEY keyboard lines hooked to the DB9 port? I guess the former is more flexible as they use the PIA to read keyboards like the Star Raiders keypad and the CX85 and also allows it to be used for other things.

[kenfused]

 

So there's a PIA in the expansion allowing for the Proceed/interrupt/command/motor lines on the SIO port and hooked to DB9 port as well or are POKEY keyboard lines hooked to the DB9 port? I guess the former is more flexible as they use the PIA to read keyboards like the Star Raiders keypad and the CX85 and also allows it to be used for other things.

I was wondering how the command line would be implemented as well, but a full blown PIA wouldn't be needed for that, and maybe just an extra output pin on whatever they are using to latch the address lines for the bank switched RAM.

 

Will the IRQ line be connected on POKEY? Does anyone know if it is connected on the XBoard?

[atariksi]

 

So there's a PIA in the expansion allowing for the Proceed/interrupt/command/motor lines on the SIO port and hooked to DB9 port as well or are POKEY keyboard lines hooked to the DB9 port? I guess the former is more flexible as they use the PIA to read keyboards like the Star Raiders keypad and the CX85 and also allows it to be used for other things.

I was wondering how the command line would be implemented as well, but a full blown PIA wouldn't be needed for that, and maybe just an extra output pin on whatever they are using to latch the address lines for the bank switched RAM.

 

Will the IRQ line be connected on POKEY? Does anyone know if it is connected on the XBoard?

 

You could use the PIA for the SIO/DB9 lines as well as for bank-switching as done on Atari 130XE. It's not just the command line, the cassette player uses the motor line from PIA and I'm using proceed line as well.

 

There's an IRQ pin on the A7800 cartridge connector so that would be an easy thing to allow for.