Andromeda Stardust Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 No offence is intended, but as I said I have now waited 6 years (which is a tad excessive) and still no sign of this being released any time soon, and judging by the last few posts its being developed by a one man team who wants to be left alone to work on the problems and not accept the help of others to speed this up a bit. I am also wondering if the Cuttle Cart 2 development took 6 years and had the same issues? Looking for something else I found this for the 7800 which I might try: http://www.vectrex.hackermesh.org/index.php/en/mvbd-mvmc-3/faqwhich should tie me over for the next 6 years until this is ready. Has anyone else tried one of these? My main concern is that if Batari can't get the Concerto running on 100% of 7800 consoles, he won't release it at all. Various 7800 console revisions have known compatibil8ty issues with various bitd 2600 and 7800 games as well as EPROMs used in certain homebrew titles. Maybe a fix could be provided to mod either the console or the H2 cart to work on these problem consoles. Perhaps a toggle switch on the cart could adjust logic levels or whatever to fix these issues. But it's not beyond the realm of possibility that a minority of consoles may simply not work with it. Should this be the case, it is better IMO to release the H2/Concerto as-is with a disclaimer and return policy, so that gaming community in general can enjoy the benefit of having an affordable flash cart option for their 7800, rather than do without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 That sounds pretty messy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 I'd rather batari hold off until he's willing to concede defeat. A disclaimer simply doesn't work with some people, and there will be those who will insist batari make things right. I have seen homebrewers nearly driven from the hobby under similar customer reactions. I'd also like batari to give the incompatibility problem his best crack for my own selfish reasons. If he figures it out, it will also benefit future projects. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsARealBoy88 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Wait... Maybe I missed it. Is there any definitive news about the status of the concerto cart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
78001987 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 The main differences here between the Concerto and "other" 7800 homebrew projects is that Fred hasn't taken a penny from anyone in pre-order money, hasn't made and then missed dozens of promised delivery dates, and has actually sole about 30 test units a while back at prge. As much as I'd be willing to take a chance on it being partially incompatible with my own 7800s for purely selfish reasons, comparing this project to "other" 7800 projects is both unfair, and inaccurate. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everett1954 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I would love to have the H2 available now. Finding that last 2% of 7800s that is does not work on could be a real time consuming chore. He should just offer money back if it does not work with your 7800. I had a similar situation on the VecMulti flash cart, for some reason it would not work on my Vectrex but tested fine on his test system. He acknowledged that there are a few it does not work on but does own one of those units. He gladly refunded my money on return and offered to make an older VecFlash cart for me. VecFlash worked for me and he was able to re-sell my VecMulti. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dauber Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I don't recall any money taken yet as pre-orders for the H2....am I missing something??? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHart Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I don't recall any money taken yet as pre-orders for the H2....am I missing something??? ... He should just offer money back if it does not work with your 7800. ... Dauber: I don't think anybody mentioned his taking any money heretofore. I believe "He should just offer money back if..." was hypothetical, meaning let them be sold with the understanding that there is a money-back guarantee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Do you guys realize that your desire to be able to play games for 7800 via flash cart asap does not override batari work ethic to only release it IF/WHEN he feels like it? 6 years, 20 years, never it's his choice!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 After batari has shipped a product out and spent time and effort, a return through money back guarantee represents a loss. Too many of those, and soon enough the whole project is a loss. It took many years of sales of the original Harmony to move the project out of the red, and Harmony is pretty much flawless. Judging from issues with other projects, we're not talking 2% of consoles with some sort of combatibility issue. Probably somewhere closer to 10% or 20%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
78001987 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 (edited) Is there an easier way to identify potentially incompatible consoles, besides the serial number on the bottom (which is apparently not reliable)? Is it a matter of if your 7800 is incompatible with: Robot Tank, Decathlon, Space Shuttle, as some are, then it will be incompatible with the Concerto, or is it not that cut and clear? Edited August 30, 2016 by 78001987 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Is there an easier way to identify potentially incompatible consoles, besides the serial number on the bottom (which is apparently not reliable)? Is it a matter of if your 7800 is incompatible with: Robot Tank, Decathlon, Space Shuttle, as some are, then it will be incompatible with the Concerto, or is it not that cut and clear? It would probably involve opening the 7800 and recording the revision numbers and date codes on the motherboard itself. The serial numbers on the shells do not provide the necessary info. It is high likely at the assembly plant that a bin of shells and a bin of PCBs were provided, potentially manufactured off site, which were assembled together by workers. Therefore there may be little correlation between the serial number on the case and the revision and date stamp on the actual PCB. There may be simple hardware mods or fixes to correct incompatible PCBs, but not every user is willing to open their 7800, much less know how to use a soldering iron. A user signs on a forum and reports their 7800 is or is not working, and if you're lucky the person will list their serial number. Few ever open the case and take photos of the board or document the actual PCB revisions. Fewer still troubleshoot the schematic with a continuity tester or grab a solder iron to attempt to repair or mod the circuits in order to fix a compatibility issue that some random forum member swears will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I don't believe it's as clear cut as those games running or not. Here's one attempt at uncovering the pattern. If there is a pattern, what it's based on is a mystery. So pedicticting it is problematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funknflow5200 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 the beta firmware is a little buggy and I understand that there are tons of issues with getting the compatibility straight. It's easy for me to say since I've got one, but let's let Batari do his thing and he'll release it / update the firmware when he's ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoyx Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I have a couple 7800s I can test on. I did an A/V mod to one of my 7800s. Only black & white and no sound after the mod. Pretty sure it was a variance that bit me. I swapped out the motherboard and redid the mod, and it worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
78001987 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I don't believe it's as clear cut as those games running or not. Here's one attempt at uncovering the pattern. If there is a pattern, what it's based on is a mystery. So pedicticting it is problematic. well, that sucks. Maybe this sounds crazy, but I don't remember anywhere near this many incompatibility reports with the CC2 when it came out, or thoughout it's lifecycle. Was it because that was custom chip/programming based vs. FPGA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Dunno, a lot of this is speculation on projects I don't have details on - batari works behind the scenes on his own, and Chad's cart was before my time. I only know about weird incompatibilities we've discovered in some homebrews. The problems may be some combination of techniques used in the game, cart hardware, and deck. It's hard to speculate on CC2 having or not having the issue through anecdote. We'd need one in the hands of someone who has a deck that experiences issues to confirm that CC2 runs fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarshipUK Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I don't believe it's as clear cut as those games running or not. Here's one attempt at uncovering the pattern. If there is a pattern, what it's based on is a mystery. So pedicticting it is problematic. So the only problem is Santa Simon? I think I could live without that tbh as its seasonal. And out of interest do those problematic 2600 games work on the 7800 using a 2600 Harmony cart and those games? If I want to play 2600 games I would play them on a 2600. I want this to play 7800 games on a 7800. I think we all get the message. The bloke releasing this is a perfectionist and wants no comeback. Fair enough, but a damn shame. There are so many talented hardware people here (unlike myself, where my strenghs lie elsewhere), its a shame someone can't re-release a run of 7800 Cuttle Carts or try and develeop their own SD Card 7800 solution to sell here. I even read that someone is working on a Jaguar SD Card device at the moment, but think they are currently overwhelmed with the orders of the Lynx SD Card they have released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 So the only problem is Santa Simon? Unfortunately, that is not the case. Finding memory chips that work with the cartridge hardware and is compatible across the various 7800 revisions is a big issue. In one instance, he came across chips that would occasionally corrupt what is stored in RAM. Batari found another brand of memory chip that was working - seemingly 100%...And it is no longer manufactured. POKEY working @$0450 addressing is another topic. The currently public iteration is taking $4000 for RAM and POKEY (ROM) addressing, which doesn't work on real hardware. It means Donkey Kong PK-XM and Bentley Bear's Crystal Quest has no sound and/or display corruption issues. Any other game, currently being developed or in the future, that needs $4000 for RAM and utilizes POKEY sound, would also not run properly. The CC2, although a dozen years old now, is a wonderful piece of hardware and software programming. However, there were indeed issues for some users that did require software updates among other items. Open the spoiler below for some quotes and links taken from the CC2 thread... http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-2?do=findComment&comment=509787 "I've had one beta tester report a similar problem with the CC2 and his 7800...Kool-Aid man won't work on the CC2 if it doesn't work on your 7800, as that's a problem in the TIA. Nothing I can do about that." http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-6?do=findComment&comment=605499 "I've put some updates on my webpage. The first is an updated version of 26QUICK.STR, to fix a certain homebrew lockout problem." http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-7?do=findComment&comment=607900 "After a few emails, he was able to figure out the problem and sent me a new SC.ROM that cleared up my Supercharger bin issue!" http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-7?do=findComment&comment=624789 "Anyone get Mr. Roboto and Gun Fight to work? Both scramble on my 7800." http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-8?do=findComment&comment=632777 "The game will load and then crash. Instead use the attached ROM and run it as F6." http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-8?do=findComment&comment=636611 "SC.STR and SC.ROM have been updated to fix a problem with a certain brand of MMC that doesn't reset properly." http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-10?do=findComment&comment=692207 "...Chad posted a new bankswitch file just for RoF." http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-12?do=findComment&comment=807549 "The F8's (Blueprint and Solar Fox) work fine, but the 4K's (Gorf, Wizard of Wor) and the FA's (Mountain King, Omega Race, Tunnel Runner) generate a "FPGA config error" http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-13?do=findComment&comment=823660 "I'm having the same problem with Supercharger games that sdamon mentioned last year - they all give me an orange/pink screen. I've made sure they're set to SC bankswitching, and named with two zeros on the end, but no luck." http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-13?do=findComment&comment=823902 "...go to http://www.schells.c.../cc2files.shtmland download the SC startup file and ROM and it will probably fix your problem." http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-14?do=findComment&comment=823922 "I'm having a very strange issue with mine - the 'Game List' appears corrupt for the first hundred or so lines (all garbage in the descriptions). Then I finally get to some of the games I put on there, but no matter which one I select, it comes back with XXXXXX.BIN not found!..." http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-15?do=findComment&comment=827496 "Anyone having problems with some of the 2600 games? I get a fatal Error when the CC2 tries to load a couple of games." The particular hardware combination utilized for the CC2 has long since been discontinued. Even prior to a finished second run, Chad ran into the issue of parts being discontinued that were known to work proper across various 7800. As batari can probably more than testify to, finding the right combination of components working properly across various console revisions - even more so on hardware that has aged another dozen years, is quite the challenging task. Some of the discoveries Chad ran into, and possible problems if he tried to update or change components utilized for the CC2, in the below spoiler. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-6?do=findComment&comment=605513 "Unfortunately the specific FPGA I used (the Xilinx Spartan XCS05) is so old that it is not supported by Xilinx's webpack (Xilinx never developed their own synthesis engine for the older parts, and they no longer partner with Synopsis to supply FPGA Express.)...Some of the Atari electronics haven't aged all that well, I've seen a lot of stuff that was definitely out of spec when looking on a scope. No problem for 5V parts, but a little risking with 5V tolerant parts" http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-8?do=findComment&comment=657262 "...one of the parts in the CC2 has been discontinued." http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-9?do=findComment&comment=659239 "The problem with FPGAs is, if you change chips, you almost certainly have a different gate layout, and all those nice bankswitching files will need to be completely different, so there will be two of each to keep track of. There were also some issues Chad didn't want to worry about with regards to TTL level bus signal compatibility." http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-9?do=findComment&comment=661648 "As for replacing the FPGA with lower voltage alternatives, it's not quite that simple. Many low voltage parts are not TTL compatible, which requires level translators on the bus. This is expensive both in terms of parts cost and board space. (It's already packed to fit in a cartridge shell.) There are FPGAs that use a lower core voltage but are 5V tolerant, but they can't handle much in the way of spikes on their inputs when working near 5 volts. And I've seen a lot of spikes of various sorts while probing around Ataris so I decided not to go that route for reliability concerns." http://atariage.com/forums/topic/42309-cuttle-cart-2-discussion-thread/page-11?do=findComment&comment=786648 "I have no ability to replace failed chips on the board." Batari is no doubt anxious to get this out the door, as the best and most compatible product possible. There's a lot of ground to cover and 'real life' too. Hang in there folks. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 I think we all get the message. The bloke releasing this is a perfectionist and wants no comeback. Fair enough, but a damn shame. A bit harsh calling Batari a "bloke", don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 A bit harsh calling Batari a "bloke", don't you think? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bloke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everett1954 Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 AceHart you had it correct: I don't think anybody mentioned his taking any money heretofore. I believe "He should just offer money back if..." was hypothetical, meaning let them be sold with the understanding that there is a money-back guarantee. That is exactly what I was trying to convey. Will it ever be possible to be 100% sure it will work on ALL 7800? I think most of us want a working H2 and don't believe there would that many returns. If he gave say a 7 day period and say the unit must be returned in "As new" condition along with a description of failure and 7800 serial number, he could get useful info on making it better and keeping a customer happy. He is getting a Like new device back that he can re-sell...no lose of money there! If he doesn't offer to take back a unit that doesn't work in a customers 7800, he will alienate that customer and the bad new will spread. Fred can check the cart to make sure it works on his units before giving the refund. Ultimately it is his choice when he feels he wants to release it, but trying to make it work on 100% of the units is unrealistic. he could be selling products while fine tuning it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Yeah he said bloke. You act like he called him a bellend. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bellend 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 but trying to make it work on 100% of the units is unrealistic. he could be selling products while fine tuning it. Maybe he does not want the headache of dealing with all the crybabies after it does not work. Why don't we all let him do his thing and not cry about it while he figures it out? If he wants it flawless you have to respect that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 A bit harsh calling Batari a "bloke", don't you think? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bloke Yeah he said bloke. You act like he called him a bellend. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bellend I thought he was a man, but if she is a woman or transgender I appologise. Sorry my British slang is not good. I thought "bloke" meant an annoying or stupid person, kinda equivalent to the chiefly US usage of the word "tool" or "douche" when referring to an individual, as opposed to neutral or positive terms like "dude" or "bro". I wasn't aware that it could be used in a non-insulting manner or even as a term of endearment. Carry on... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.