Review of the Nintendo NES Top Loader vs Original oldschool "Toaster" model

[per]

As the main discussion here seems to be about the market situation of the NES in the US/Japan vs. other places in the world, it's amazing nobody has mentioned the North American video-game crash of 1983/84 yet.

 

What I think is the main reason Nintendo was so big in the US is because they used tactical marketing (see earlier comments) to regain trust from the storekeepers after the crash; causing them to gain a more or less legal monopoly for the first coupple of years (1985/86). Commodore's great price war in 84 also reduced the number of competing home-computers, so I clearly see how the NES became a such huge success in the US.

 

In Europe we never had any kind of crash in the videogame market, and the market of Homecomputers in Europe didn't really bloom before after the success of the C64, which came as a result of the pricewar in 84 (as of I have heard). This increased the competition, and the NES never had such a head-start as it had in the US.

 

I didn't live back then, so all of what I know is based on research I've done on this topic.

Edited August 6, 2010 by per

[The_Laird]

Actually we ended up taking the discussion to a seperate thread which the person here questioning me chose to totally ignore

[atarilovesyou]

Actually we ended up taking the discussion to a seperate thread which the person here questioning me chose to totally ignore

 

 

...kinda like I'm ignoring you now?...lol, just kiddin. Where's the thread? Link? I'll gladly argue more about this, and perhaps learn a thing or two about why Brits liked that second-rate SMS more than the clearly superior NES .

[The_Laird]

Actually we ended up taking the discussion to a seperate thread which the person here questioning me chose to totally ignore

 

 

...kinda like I'm ignoring you now?...lol, just kiddin. Where's the thread? Link? I'll gladly argue more about this, and perhaps learn a thing or two about why Brits liked that second-rate SMS more than the clearly superior NES .

 

It was more than just the Brits who prefered the SMS, the NES got absolutley spanked everywhere but North America and Asia as THIS thread proved.

Edited August 13, 2010 by The_Laird

[atarilovesyou]

I really hope you are joking. The NES was not hard to get hold of all all and my next door neighbour had one so I played a large amount of the games available too.

 

It didn't sell because it was over priced and the competition was better. The Sega Master System had better games and better graphics, you are the ones who missed out because you didn't get all the SMS games we did.

 

Mind you I never owned an NES either during those years I had a 2600 and a Spectrum first and then upgraded to an ST and Lynx before getting a Megadrive.

 

The NES only did so well in the US because Nintendo used unfair tactics to control the market. They couldn't do that in the rest of the world so it was on a level playing field and people saw the machine for what it really was.

 

So if the NES was overpriced and easy to find in stores, then why would they have need to resort to unfair tactics to control the market? If they made a mistake, it was in price point. They didn't do that in North America; Master Systems were more expensive and this justification was usually because of the better graphics (as if that makes a game better).

 

You never owned an NES, so you just didn't like it. That's fine; I don't like brussel sprouts, for instance.

 

People saw the SMS for what it was in my parts as: overpriced in comparison to the NES and less fun because of less games. The few SMS titles that were actually better than their counterparts were usualy graphically (Double Dragon, although it also did manage two player simul, and Rampage), and even then they were games that just didn't matter.

 

Why not tell us more about how Nintendo kept Capcom, Konami and the other heavyweight third party develops away from making titles for Sega machines? Now that's something I'd like to read about, because as I understood it, Sega was as much at fault as Nintendo for allowing that to happen (difficult system to program for, even more stringent third-party controls over what games were released). To me, it looks like Sega got greedy and didn't want anybody out there to share in the profits. They also were arrogant enough to believe that they could make better games than the top designers of the world at the time; while that was true in the arcades, we all know that home vs arcade sales are not the same thing.

 

Your other thread proves a point that I didn't disagree with: SMS outselling NES in Europe. That looks to be true. But your reasoning behind it is what I disagree with: you think it was because of unfair illegal marketing tactics on Nintendo's part and I believe it was just because Nintendo marketed better games.

[MindController]

In the end none of this actually mattered. Because the Sega Genesis came in and crushed the NES with its "Blast Processing" power and wonderfully addictive addons like the Sega CD and the Sega 32X

 

....Well maybe the first part about blast processing is correct, anyway. Haw Haw!

 

But seriously, it was disappointing that the Top Loading NES didn't sport A/V integration like it's earlier design. Also, the dog bone controllers were all kinds of fail.

Edited September 5, 2010 by MindController

[CGQuarterly]

Also, the dog bone controllers were all kinds of fail.

 

Ummm, no.

 

Chris

[MindController]

Ummm, yes.

 

Thanks again.

Edited September 6, 2010 by MindController

[82-T/A]

Hey guys. We just created a great new video and I wanted to post it to share with everyone.

 

Ciao :]

DeLorean

 

 

Is this the same DeLorean on the Fiero Forum who owns a couple of Fieros, a Ferrari 360 Modena, and a couple of Deloreans? He signs off all his posts with Ciao... either it's the same guy, or a personality trait that both of you share which compell you to put Ciao at the end and also buy Deloreans! haha...

 

 

I watched this video on Facebook and thought it was quite insulting. Like the NES ruled the world and if you don't own one then you are not a proper collector or retro gamer which is total rubbish. I hate this misinformed opinion that the NES was king when in the UK, Europe, Australia and South America it was a total non-event.

 

When I was at school if you told somebody you owned an NES they would laugh at you and walk away . . . .

 

Man, really? I don't see how you could think a post about Nintendo is insulting. I'll tell you what's insulting. When I would visit my extended family in Holland and France through a few trips in the 80s... ALL the kids would tell me how Russia was going to take over the world, and how Ronald Reagan was evil, and how Communism was best, yadda yadda. I thought it strange, being 7 years old, that this was a conversation that kids even had in Holland. God forbid I talk back to anyone when the KLM 747 flight I was on returning from Egypt was forced to land in East Germany during the Communist occupation.

 

Anyway, I told them that if Russia was so awesome, and America sucked so bad, why were we both speaking English? I guess technically that would make England extra-awesome... but whatever. It was a damn good point and I was only 7 or 8 or whatever.

 

 

 

When I was at school if you told somebody you owned an NES they would laugh at you and walk away . . . .

 

for you european guys at least, here NES is like a video game god.

you bring up NES in a conversation "OH YEAH! I remember that old thing. it was fun!"... But I have to tell everyone how to fix the connectors though...

 

Man, if I bring up video games in random conversations with people, I get nerd-looks. It also emberasses my wife to no end. Sometimes when we're at parties, if I get drunk, we'll all be talking about cool stuff, you know, like football, or whatever. And then I'll start talking about Dungeons & Dragons. Man, it seems HILARIOUS to me at the time, but she totally doesn't think it's funny. She says she would rather not hear about "that time" in my life when I was in middle school and played Dungeons & Dragons.

 

She's the nerd though... I don't even play games anymore, and she's the one that just bought a Wii.

 

 

Sorry, but I couldn't watch the whole video. It took three minutes for the word "Nintendo" to even be mentioned.

 

Yea the first 3 minutes I was just thinking "WTF, why I am I seeing random images of people set to cheesy music?"

 

Yeah, I started seeing pictures of people in bikinis and stuff and I was like, well... this doesn't really have anything to do with Nintendo... but it's good enough.

[eightbit]

I read through some of this thread (admittedly not ALL of it) but I did get to the point in which some people are saying that the NES wasn't all that popular or whatnot...

 

I can tell you for sure around these parts (USA East Coast) I do not think I would be able to find a single person that does not know what a NES is, or enjoy it to some extent. You know when people say "Atari" they are referring to the VCS the majority of the time? Well, when people say "Nintendo" around here it is the NES they are talking about....at least people who lived through those NES years that is

 

Atari created the multi-billion dollar videogaming industry. Nintendo revitalized brought it into a whole new direction. Nobody can deny the importance of Atari, and nobody should deny the importance of the NES either. I'm not a hardcore fan of the NES or anything, but I will admit that there are quite a few games that I really love on that toaster!

[kool kitty89]

Why not tell us more about how Nintendo kept Capcom, Konami and the other heavyweight third party develops away from making titles for Sega machines? Now that's something I'd like to read about, because as I understood it, Sega was as much at fault as Nintendo for allowing that to happen (difficult system to program for, even more stringent third-party controls over what games were released). To me, it looks like Sega got greedy and didn't want anybody out there to share in the profits. They also were arrogant enough to believe that they could make better games than the top designers of the world at the time; while that was true in the arcades, we all know that home vs arcade sales are not the same thing.

The SMS wasn't hard to program for compared to the NES... the 7800 was, but that's another story. (given some of the similarities to the MSX/MSX2, the SMS could have made a better platform for porting/cross development too)

 

The problem was that Nintendo had the lead in Japan, plain and simple, they got in there in 1983 and Sega had the SG-1000 Mk.I which was far less capable (albeit similar to the Colecovision and MSX -other than weaker sound than MSX). And by the time the Mk.III cam in 1985, Nintendo was the dominant player on the market (sort of like Atari Inc with the early console market in the US). Sega's one advantage was that they at least had significant in-house software development resources.

 

And I already addressed the problems with the US vs EU marketing of the SMS (a shame Tonka hadn't marketed it from the start in the US), but on top of that, due to Sega screwing up in '86/87 in the US, Nintendo became the dominant player there too, so JP developers would have been even less likely to support Sega then.

Plus you had the restrictive licensing policies added to anything published in North America (at least by 1988) on top of all that limiting JP developers. Granted, you had Nintendo playing favorites with some and basically letting everything through beyond the 3 game quota (anythign past 3 games per year had to be approved by Nintendo) and also gave higher priority to cartridge production rather than leaving them in the cold as with some other developers.

It was the smaller developers that really hurt though, as even if Nintendo was restrictive to the larger ones, they had tricks like what Konami did publishing under their Ultra Label.

 

Those licensing policies really hurt late generation competition and 3rd party software developers (mainly smaller ones), and made it tough even for the PC Engine and Mega Drive to get localized. (again Sega at least had the advantage of hefty 1st/2nd party support, but NEC was far more dependent on 3rd party software: a big reason the TG-16 didn't catch on in addition to their problematic marketing in the US -in hindsight it seems far more likely that they could have succeeded in Europe with the healthier competition and market model that fit NEC's strategy better -smaller countries being closer fitting to the model used in Japan -which was focus on major cities and rely on viral marketing to do the rest)

 

 

 

 

 

Atari created the multi-billion dollar videogaming industry. Nintendo revitalized brought it into a whole new direction. Nobody can deny the importance of Atari, and nobody should deny the importance of the NES either. I'm not a hardcore fan of the NES or anything, but I will admit that there are quite a few games that I really love on that toaster!

Yeah, Nintendo did end up being the one to claim credit for revitalizing the industry, and they certainly did change it in several ways, but it was recovering one way or another, the way Nintendo expanded it was more significant though. The anti-competitive tactics they later employed were not good though, they limited diversity in the industry: who knows what might have happened with the SMS, 7800, TG-16 (maybe XEGS or late 2600 games) in terms of 3rd party support in the late 80s had it not been for that, or the number of smaller 3rd parties (or more computer oriented developers) who might have given more support to the NES if the licensing restrictions hadn't been too great, let alone European publishers. (as it was I think Nintendo had to be more lax in Europe, but I meant European development for release in the US market -which there was some of, in part due to efforts to bypass Nintendo lock-out as with Codemasters)

 

Sega and Atari could have done the same had Sega not botched marketing early on (Nintendo's key to success with good marketing), and Atari not been severely limited in resourced... Hell, had Warner not sold Atari Consumer in 1984 and James morgan got to finish his reorganization of a lean, efficient Atari Inc, who knows what might have happened? (as it was, Warner really screwed i up in the way they mismanaged the transition of ownership to TTL -renamed Atari Corp)

 

 

 

Edit: this seems to be a better topic for the discussion: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/166584-nes-vs-master-system-sales-rest-of-world/page__st__50__p__2090023

Edited September 8, 2010 by kool kitty89

[Chuck D. Head]

Also, the dog bone controllers were all kinds of fail.

 

Ummm, no.

 

Chris

 

Yeah, I honestly have no clue what he's talking about. Same functionality and a little more comfortable to the hands. **IGNORE** Morgan

[kool kitty89]

Also, the dog bone controllers were all kinds of fail.

 

Ummm, no.

 

Chris

 

Yeah, I honestly have no clue what he's talking about. Same functionality and a little more comfortable to the hands. **IGNORE** Morgan

 

The dogbones are less comfortable for me, mainly the button placement, convex buttons, and general size. I prefer the slab sides as I hold the controller by pressing my palms against the edges and griping, I barely ever touch the corners on an NES pad. The curved sizes means I have a smaller area putting pressure on my hands vs the nice slab sides of the original controller distributing it better. (same for the SNES pad, though proper grips are preferable -ie N64, and I especially like the model 1 genesis controller with the almost slab sides with subtle curve and nice grips, though mainly the size and d-pad)

 

The D-pad is a bit better though, more like the SNES's, but not as good as the N64's. (same d-pad plastic peice, but more raised, a fully concave surrounding area of the controller, and a bit more responsive; too bad it was hardly used on the N64)

 

 

 

The Dogbone controller definitely doesn't look as cool though.

Edited September 9, 2010 by kool kitty89

[CGQuarterly]

It's just personal preference. I have very large hands but the dogbone is more comfortable for me based on the way in which I hold the controller. That's fine, but to say that the controller is "all kinds of fail" is just a stupid statement.

 

Chris

[kool kitty89]

It's just personal preference. I have very large hands but the dogbone is more comfortable for me based on the way in which I hold the controller. That's fine, but to say that the controller is "all kinds of fail" is just a stupid statement.

 

Chris

 

Yeah, it's perfectly usable, and honestly I think i's the buttons that bother me more than anything else... the Snes controller is more usable overall. (and it's definitely more comfortable in several areas than the original NES controller, probably a little better overall -and obviously they had to make it usable with the added buttons)

[CGQuarterly]

Oh yeah, the SNES controller is great. I've been wanting to get one of those SNES -> USB adapters from RetroUSB for use with emulators.

 

Chris

[Shephda]

America is a country Europe isn't.

 

I was born in England which is in the UK so that makes me either English or British. Not European

 

LOL, I learned this lesson the first time I talked to a chap in Jersey over Ham Radio and I told him he was the first British guy I ever talked to. For the next 10 minutes I got a geography and history lesson.

[82-T/A]

Damn, what happened to our generation that everyone gets so emotional and sensitive. WW2 vets would laugh at us like the little girls we are.

 

Come on people, stop being so damn girly... We're talking about video games!