General Atari 8-bit questions

[ruthven]

I'm new to Atari 8-bit computers (and this forum)--I just put up my first post concerning transferring .ATRs to actual Atari floppies, but I figured I'd start a new thread as I have some very general questions concerning the OS and file structure. I've noticed that all the disks I've created so far are self-booting... does this mean that I cannot copy multiple programs/games to a single disk unless I have that disk boot to a menu that lets you choose? Is it possible to boot to BASIC or DOS 2.5 (or some other OS) and run a program/game from there, even if this program is normally self-booting? Also, there are certain programs/games that I cannot see the directory structure of within DOS 2.5--in most cases I cannot copy these disks under DOS's "duplicate disk"--is there another OS (or disk copy program) that will allow me to view the files contained on these disks and copy them?

 

Sorry for all the questions--I'm anxious to get back to transferring, but I need to figure out how to put multiple programs/games on a disk first (if possible) as 5 1/4" floppies are in low supply... Thanks.

[Rybags]

Generally you can't really boot a disk from inside Basic, but on XL/XE you can just type "BYE" and press Reset which reboots the machine anyway.

 

If you've got a DOS/Basic environment, then you can often load games if they're on a DOS structured disk, but many such games don't work if Basic's enabled.

 

POKE 1016,1 then press Reset is a quick way to get rid of Basic and retain DOS without having to reboot the machine.

 

The Duplicate Disk in most DOSes only copies the sectors in use, so is useless for most one-game autoboot disks. There's hundreds of copy programs around that do entire disks, so no real problem.

 

In this day and age, it's usually easier to just do all the tedious file manipulation stuff on a PC either in an emulator or by using a Windows-based utility.

 

Of course that assumes you have the means to easily get data from PC->Atari and back, which is why the #1 recommended addon is an APE/SIO2PC type interface.

[russg]

There are many games that are boot disks. Many of those games are also available as binary load from a DOS

disk. Many games can't run from DOS because they step on DOS, so many games are put on MENU disks.

Menu disks you can put several games on and pick the game you want at boot time. You can find compilations

of menu disks, with, say 6 or 7 games on each disk.

Your 1050 is probably single density, you might want to get a ICD doubler for your 1050, which then allows

you to use double density disks, twice the capacity.

As already mentioned, an APE or SIO2PC interface and appropriate software can be very useful, you can

use your PC as a hard drive for the Atari, and also as up to eight floppy drives.

Using the real computer is fun, but with limited space, you can use a PC Atari emulator like Atari800winPlus.

[ruthven]

Thanks for the info guys.

 

Many games can't run from DOS because they step on DOS, so many games are put on MENU disks.

Menu disks you can put several games on and pick the game you want at boot time. You can find compilations

of menu disks, with, say 6 or 7 games on each disk.

 

I found a website with a ton of these menu disks with many great game compilations... unfortunately they're all double-sided DD disk images (I think) which I cannot run on my 1050 drive as you've observed. So the trick will be splitting them up into smaller (130K ED) images... Is it possible to create my own boot menu in, say BASIC? Or is there some software that aids in this process? Or do I need to learn some ML for that?

 

I've downloaded a lot of games and still have tons to go--many of these are very small and I imagine I could fit at least 3 or 4 even on a 130K ED disk. Now if all the games are runnable in DOS I'd be all set--worst case scenario, I'd boot to DOS, check the directory to find the executable name and run program of choice (takes a bit longer but still gets the job done). However if any were incompatible with DOS, I'm assuming I'd have to create my own booting menu...

 

In this day and age, it's usually easier to just do all the tedious file manipulation stuff on a PC either in an emulator or by using a Windows-based utility.

 

This is a good point. Since 130K is my max disk size to work with, I'm thinking it would probably be best to create a blank 130K ED image and add the individual files of small games to that image until it's filled, then transfer that image. Of course I'd still have to figure out the whole boot-menu thing and make sure that was incorporated within the image as well (if the games were non DOS bootable at least). But this still leaves the issue of not being able to actually see the individual files of non DOS games. Just as I can't view them under DOS 2.5's "DIRECTORY" on my actual 130XE, I can't view them within the .ATR file in the programs I've tried (ATRUTIL, .ATR plugin for Total Commander). Since I can't view the "guts" of these .ATRs, I can't very well copy them inside a fresh .ATR for the purposes of a compilation. Here's an example: I have Axis Assassin which is a self booting non DOS game that I can't view the files to. Even though I have no idea how much space it actually takes on the disk, I can assume it can't be over 90K as it is a single-sided SD image. So theoretically, if I could put this on a 130K ED formatted disk (or image) I'd still have at least 40K to work with which I could presumably use up with a small game or two. Heck, if I could just get two games per side choose-able by menu I'd be happy--anything I can do to save on disks. Does anybody know of a program (PC or Atari) that will allow me to copy these "hidden" game files (or maybe just used sectors only) to my own compilation disk? Or is this going to take some serious technical expertise?

 

The Duplicate Disk in most DOSes only copies the sectors in use, so is useless for most one-game autoboot disks. There's hundreds of copy programs around that do entire disks, so no real problem.

 

I'm still going to have to copy certain games on my actual 130XE, even if I create my compilation images on PC before transferring them. This is because I'm transferring the images to disks using my PC's 5 1/4" drive--this actually works surprisingly well (see my other thread). However, one definite short coming of this method is the fact that I cannot write an .ATR image to the flip side of the disk. For this I have to write the .ATR to a temporary disk, format the flip side of the compilation disk I'm working on in the 130XE and use Atari software to copy the temp disk to the flip side of the comp disk. So if anybody could give me any suggestions as to good duplication software (programs good for copying non DOS, possibly copy-protected games), I'd appreciate it! I'll download as many as I can find--I'm a utilities kind of guy...

[russg]

Uhm. I'm pretty sure your 1050 is a US doubler or Happy modded 1050. You can't read the

WRITEATR or Ataridsk PC written disks on a single density 1050. I'm pretty sure.

If your 1050 can read a writeatr 180K atr written on a PC, then your 1050 is double density 192K.

[russg]

Most boot disk games are on single density disks/atrs. You can't write those using a PC drive.

A boot disk game maybe isn't in a DOS readable format, it is just a medium and you can't break it down

into a file. Most such games are around as load files, either on a menu disk or a .exe/.xex/.com/.obj file.

You mention finding compilations you think are on double dens. double sided .atrs. I doubt that they

are double sided, and probably not even double density. Maybe if you mention where you've seen these

menu disks, I could be more certain. You can tell the density by the size of the image, I'm sure you know.

You aren't going to find many copy protected disks, they have all been modified to not be protected any more.

Of course, you might buy some original disks and those would be copy protected. Those could be removed, but

why do that, it has already been done. There is a format for protected images, called PRO images.

If you wish to make your own menu disks of your favorite games, you can just use any menu disk, erase what's

on them, and put your own files on them.

[Shawn Jefferson]

Best would be to get an SIO2PC adapter (http://www.atarimax.com), download the APE software and use your PC to load games/disks to your Atari. Put the 1050 aside to look at once in a while.

[ruthven]

Uhm. I'm pretty sure your 1050 is a US doubler or Happy modded 1050. You can't read the

WRITEATR or Ataridsk PC written disks on a single density 1050. I'm pretty sure.

If your 1050 can read a writeatr 180K atr written on a PC, then your 1050 is double density 192K.

 

Nope. While I'm able to write 180K and 360K .ATRS to disk in the PC, these are not loadable on my 1050--tried a few times before I realized it was perfectly normal for this drive not to read these disks. However, WriteAtr does have an "experimental" option to write 130K enhanced density. This option supposedly only works on very few drive controllers. I guess I have one of those few drive controllers, because it works for me--this is the only mode I can get WriteAtr to create a disk that is readable in my 1050. That is why I believe my drive to be single density.

 

Most boot disk games are on single density disks/atrs. You can't write those using a PC drive.

 

Actually... if you have one of those rare drive controllers such as mine that allows for writing 130K disks, you can use WriteAtr to write a single density image (90K) onto a 130K disk! The program just zeros out the rest of the disk. So while it's still true that you can't write 90K disks on PC and this method still produces a 130K disk, the Atari/1050 will see this disk as 90K and treat it normally!! I've tested this several times as most everything I've downloaded is a 90K image, a few are 130K. Axis Assassin (that I mentioned above) is one such 90K SD disk I wrote to a 130K disk--it boots and plays just fine on my Atari/1050!

 

A boot disk game maybe isn't in a DOS readable format, it is just a medium and you can't break it down

into a file. Most such games are around as load files, either on a menu disk or a .exe/.xex/.com/.obj file.

 

Thank you--this is exactly what I needed to know. Actually, I was starting to wonder about the .xex format as many of the games I've downloaded have this extension. I guess this means that they're already in the format I need them in to make my own compilation disks.

 

You mention finding compilations you think are on double dens. double sided .atrs. I doubt that they

are double sided, and probably not even double density. Maybe if you mention where you've seen these

menu disks, I could be more certain. You can tell the density by the size of the image, I'm sure you know.

 

Ok, I just checked into it and, my mistake--these do in fact seem to be single density images... I could have sworn that each image was around 360K, but I check now and they're more like 90K-130K tops. So maybe I could just take the easy route after all and copy all the premade menu disks... but that wouldn't be as fun/interesting as making my own custom ones anyway!

 

You aren't going to find many copy protected disks, they have all been modified to not be protected any more.

 

Great--I was hoping this was the case as it was with the C64.

 

If you wish to make your own menu disks of your favorite games, you can just use any menu disk, erase what's

on them, and put your own files on them.

 

*Nice* I was hoping it might be as easy as this!

 

Best would be to get an SIO2PC adapter (http://www.atarimax.com), download the APE software and use your PC to load games/disks to your Atari. Put the 1050 aside to look at once in a while.

 

Ahh, but then I wouldn't have the action of slapping that good old 5 1/4" disk into that drive!--and that would kill some of the authenticity of the experience for me. Call me strange but I actually enjoy any rare chance I get to use 5 1/4" disks--they just look, feel and seem cool to me. They definitely take me back to my happiest memories of computing... That said, I wouldn't mind also having a setup in which I could load software directly off a PC acting like a virtual hard drive. That's down the road though. Either way I want to establish a good physical library first.

[Arkanoid_376970]

5 1/4"??? Man... i want an 8" drive

[+bf2k+]

 

Ahh, but then I wouldn't have the action of slapping that good old 5 1/4" disk into that drive!--and that would kill some of the authenticity of the experience for me. Call me strange but I actually enjoy any rare chance I get to use 5 1/4" disks--they just look, feel and seem cool to me. They definitely take me back to my happiest memories of computing... That said, I wouldn't mind also having a setup in which I could load software directly off a PC acting like a virtual hard drive. That's down the road though. Either way I want to establish a good physical library first.

 

 

Why not do both? I have 1050's and a PC (via APE interface cable)... along with MIO/Hard Disk etc.

[+therealbountybob]

Have a read of post #24 http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/135697-autorun-menu-for-mydos-4-53-wanted/page__p__1635322__hl__menu__fromsearch__1#entry1635322 re game menu disks

[russg]

One more thing for someone new to Atari 8-bit. I remember this when I first got my 800XL in 1984.

I tried to boot a game disk and it failed. I called the SmartDOS company (Rana) and they told me

about the fact you have to hold down OPTION when booting a boot disk game. Holding OPTION at

boot time disables the built in BASIC. If BASIC is enabled, the boot disk can't use $A000 to

$BFFF, so it won't run. If you get a READY prompt, then your BASIC is enabled. If BASIC is

disabled, then you'd get a DOS menu or DOS command prompt with a DOS disk, or if a game disk,

the game will load and run. Probably you already know this.

[HiassofT]

Have a read of post #24 http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/135697-autorun-menu-for-mydos-4-53-wanted/page__p__1635322__hl__menu__fromsearch__1#entry1635322 re game menu disks

In addition to that:

 

If you don't want to go through the troubles to transfer the COM/EXE/XEX/... files from the PCs to your Atari first, you can create an ATR image with MyPicoDos and your files directly on your (Windows) PC using "dir2atr". Some more details are here, at post #10: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/159542-need-help-making-atr-files/page__p__1963198#entry1963198

 

Please note: the dir2atr.exe is a Win32 console application, not a DOS program (like WriteAtr). It works fine in the "dos box" of Win9x, but it cannot be started from plain DOS.

 

BTW: To create a 130k "enhanced density" ATR with MyPicoDos, suited for a stock 1050, use the following options:

dir2atr -b MyPicoDos405B -m -p 1040 myimage.atr mydirectory

so long,

 

Hias

[+therealbountybob]

Have a read of post #24 http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/135697-autorun-menu-for-mydos-4-53-wanted/page__p__1635322__hl__menu__fromsearch__1#entry1635322 re game menu disks

In addition to that:

 

If you don't want to go through the troubles to transfer the COM/EXE/XEX/... files from the PCs to your Atari first, you can create an ATR image with MyPicoDos and your files directly on your (Windows) PC using "dir2atr". Some more details are here, at post #10: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/159542-need-help-making-atr-files/page__p__1963198#entry1963198

 

Please note: the dir2atr.exe is a Win32 console application, not a DOS program (like WriteAtr). It works fine in the "dos box" of Win9x, but it cannot be started from plain DOS.

 

BTW: To create a 130k "enhanced density" ATR with MyPicoDos, suited for a stock 1050, use the following options:

dir2atr -b MyPicoDos405B -m -p 1040 myimage.atr mydirectory

so long,

 

Hias

Wow Hias, this is fantastic and will save me hours creating images to transfer to my 1050 If there are more files than space remaining does it not write the last file and leave space

[HiassofT]

Wow Hias, this is fantastic and will save me hours creating images to transfer to my 1050 If there are more files than space remaining does it not write the last file and leave space

Yes, it will output an error that there's not enough space on the image, but otherwise the image will be fine (i.e. all other files that fit on the image are there).

 

If you omit the "1040" (the number of sectors) dir2atr calculates the number of sectors needed to store all files and you'll end up with a, for example, 1427 sectors ATR. Nice for emulators and SIO2PC, but maybe not really suited for transferring it to your 1050 :-)

 

so long,

 

Hias

[marquisor]

I'm sorry to ask, but maybe could someone recommend me some three or four decent disk copy programs and where to get them? I'm a bit confused by the much text here, maybe I overseen something?

 

As I got a new (obviously working!) 1050 now and SIO2PC, I want to create some disks/i.e. copy some from APE .atr do real disks.

[Fox-1 / mnx]

I'm sorry to ask, but maybe could someone recommend me some three or four decent disk copy programs and where to get them?

 

About all disk(-sector)copiers are basically the same but here are 5 (ATR) to get a start:

 

* Copymate XE

* My Copyer 2.0

* Toms Copyer

* COPYMATE 4.4

* Copy 2000

Copy-EXEs.zip

[marquisor]

Great! Thx very much!

 

Unfortunately my next 1050 is broken The drive belt broke... Can I fix this with a rubber band or will I need a special one?

 

ARGH...

NO LUCK with my 800 XLs and 1050s so far

Edited September 3, 2010 by marquisor

[spookt]

Great! Thx very much!

 

Unfortunately my next 1050 is broken The drive belt broke... Can I fix this with a rubber band or will I need a special one?

 

ARGH...

NO LUCK with my 800 XLs and 1050s so far

 

If you find the right size band you might get lucky. If you do I'd bet that you'll have to reset the drive RPM. Best Electronics have new belts, I ordered some last year and they worked fine.

Edited September 3, 2010 by spookt

[+Stephen]

Great! Thx very much!

 

Unfortunately my next 1050 is broken The drive belt broke... Can I fix this with a rubber band or will I need a special one?

 

ARGH...

NO LUCK with my 800 XLs and 1050s so far

 

If you find the right size band you might get lucky. If you do I'd bet that you'll have to reset the drive RPM. Best Electronics have new belts, I ordered some last year and they worked fine.

I seriously doubt that a rubber band would have the strength to provide the stable RPM needed for reliable disk access. There are still many places that sell new rubber belts (usually for turntables / VCRs).

[atariksi]

Great! Thx very much!

 

Unfortunately my next 1050 is broken The drive belt broke... Can I fix this with a rubber band or will I need a special one?

 

ARGH...

NO LUCK with my 800 XLs and 1050s so far

 

If you find the right size band you might get lucky. If you do I'd bet that you'll have to reset the drive RPM. Best Electronics have new belts, I ordered some last year and they worked fine.

I seriously doubt that a rubber band would have the strength to provide the stable RPM needed for reliable disk access. There are still many places that sell new rubber belts (usually for turntables / VCRs).

 

I tried rubber band on an Atari ST floppy drive and it does work somewhat but it slips more than the normal belt. Once I get it spinning, I can read the boot block but later it gets errors.

[marquisor]

I tried rubber band on an Atari ST floppy drive and it does work somewhat but it slips more than the normal belt. Once I get it spinning, I can read the boot block but later it gets errors.

 

 

well well... so i can use 3rd party belts?! that sounds good. can someone tell me the length and other properties of a 1050 tandon mechanic rubber belt?!

i guess this is what 3rd party manufacturers need to know... is there some kind of elasticity or smthng. else to care of?

[+Stephen]

I tried rubber band on an Atari ST floppy drive and it does work somewhat but it slips more than the normal belt. Once I get it spinning, I can read the boot block but later it gets errors.

 

 

well well... so i can use 3rd party belts?! that sounds good. can someone tell me the length and other properties of a 1050 tandon mechanic rubber belt?!

i guess this is what 3rd party manufacturers need to know... is there some kind of elasticity or smthng. else to care of?

Basically your are fine if the belt width and thickness match. Unfortunately I do not know the dimensions of the 1050 belt. If you have your old one, it is easier to measure the belt when it is broken. Simply lay it flat and measure the length. With the older (especially broken) belts, it's best to drop a tiny bit (1/4" to 3/8" for a belt this size) off the measurement to account for stretch. It's fine to go slightly thicker / wider, but I would not recommend going thinner / narrower.

[ruthven]

Ok, got kind of busy these past couple weeks and I had to put this project aside for a while...

 

Thanks to everyone for their info on creating menu disks--I've read through all the linked posts and decided to go with MyPicoDos menu disks created with dir2atr as this just seemed the easiest most straight-forward method. So far it's worked great for games in stand-alone load file format (.XEX, etc). But some games I can only find in .ATR format--most of these games seem to be on Dos structured disks as I can see the individual files in an .ATR viewer (I think they all include DOS.SYS and DUP.SYS). They also each have their own AUTORUN file, so I'm wondering how to make menu disks of these games? I tried making a compilation disk of these "Dos games" by just copying all the individual files for each game onto one disk image. I just included one copy of DOS.SYS and DUP.SYS as I figured these must be the same. But I was unsure of what to do with each game's AUTORUN file--obviously I can't have multiple files of the same name on the same disk--and I don't want it to boot to any particular game anyway but rather a menu. So I omitted the AUTORUNs and put all the files into a MyPicoDos menu disk as before. I could only get one game to work this way--the other two froze at a black or blue screen. I'm not surprised that at least one of the games didn't work--I noticed that the AUTORUN file for that game was like 80 bytes where the other AUTORUNs were 1 or 2 bytes... is it possible that some of the actual game code is in the AUTORUN file?

 

So I'm wondering what's the best/easiest way to create menu disks for these "Dos games"? Should I continue to use MyPicoDos (maybe with different parameters) or is there a better suited program?

 

About all disk(-sector)copiers are basically the same but here are 5 (ATR) to get a start:

 

* Copymate XE

* My Copyer 2.0

* Toms Copyer

* COPYMATE 4.4

* Copy 2000

 

While we're on this subject... Can anybody recommend a FAST sector copier? Some games I need to copy directly on my 130XE/1050 to the flip-side as I can't write directly on the flip-side in the PC's 5 1/4" drive. I've got a lot of games to copy to flip-sides in order to get the most out of each 5 1/4" disk. So to save time I'd like to use the fastest sector copier possible. I've been using Sector Copier 130XE, which isn't bad (it's much faster and more accurate than Dos's "Duplicate Disk") but it would be great if I can get something even faster...

[russg]

(Wants games with DOS and AUTORUN.SYS to be able to put on menu disks).

I would take it one game at a time. Can you name a few of these?

The AUTORUN.SYS probably is just a loader for the actual game code.

Sorta on topic, here's a list of 92K menu disks from Justin's archives.

justins.zip

Edited September 6, 2010 by russg