New Skunkboard on the way?

[+Sauron]

"Digital distribution" is not the same as "freeware downloads". There were games available for download before Jagware and Reboot came along. When people talk about the potential of the Skunkboard for future distribution methods, they are talking about commercial titles using the hardware to reduce piracy.

 

The difference only lies in how people are defining "digital distribution". Yes, I know there were downloads well before Jagware or Reboot, but they've put together what can be considered commercial quality games that at the very least rival those sold commercially by other homebrew developers. The only difference between what they do and what you're defining is that they don't charge money for downloading their games.

[viMaster]

In reality, the Jagware and Reboot teams have hit the future (and the now) of Jag homebrew releases. Release games for free for those who are more interested in just playing the games while still making carts and/or CDs for the collectors.

What is this, Jagware/Reboot propaganda hour?

[+Sauron]

What is this, Jagware/Reboot propaganda hour?

 

Do you actually have anything intelligent to add to this discussion, or are you just here to troll?

[viMaster]

"Digital distribution" is not the same as "freeware downloads". There were games available for download before Jagware and Reboot came along. When people talk about the potential of the Skunkboard for future distribution methods, they are talking about commercial titles using the hardware to reduce piracy.

 

The difference only lies in how people are defining "digital distribution". Yes, I know there were downloads well before Jagware or Reboot, but they've put together what can be considered commercial quality games that at the very least rival those sold commercially by other homebrew developers. The only difference between what they do and what you're defining is that they don't charge money for downloading their games.

The option to use the skunk's anti-piracy features are optional.

It doesn't have to be used...

I don't see what the big deal is here.

 

Or are people just trying to find faults with the SB3 in order to nullify its existence?

[viMaster]

What is this, Jagware/Reboot propaganda hour?

 

Do you actually have anything intelligent to add to this discussion, or are you just here to troll?

I have already added to the conversation in the last page or two. Go back and read.

Speaking of troll... *cough*

[+Sauron]

The option to use the skunk's anti-piracy features are optional.

It doesn't have to be used...

I don't see what the big deal is here.

 

Or are people just trying to find faults with the SB3 in order to nullify its existence?

 

My posts have more to do with "the times they are a-changin" then anything else. It isn't a big deal to me, it's a simple discussion about the Skunk's use for future Jag projects. If I had such a problem with its existence, I wouldn't have just put one on pre-order.

[sh3-rg]

In reality, the Jagware and Reboot teams have hit the future (and the now) of Jag homebrew releases. Release games for free for those who are more interested in just playing the games while still making carts and/or CDs for the collectors.

What is this, Jagware/Reboot propaganda hour?

 

Hey, it's great to see vimaster came back to AA to participate and really add to the conversation so eloquently.

 

Well, at least it gives Kizza someone to +1 for a change...

 

How about you save your snidey shit for JS2, Mr. Master? Leave the big boys to talk sensibly in the proper forum.

[viMaster]

In reality, the Jagware and Reboot teams have hit the future (and the now) of Jag homebrew releases. Release games for free for those who are more interested in just playing the games while still making carts and/or CDs for the collectors.

What is this, Jagware/Reboot propaganda hour?

 

Hey, it's great to see vimaster came back to AA to participate and really add to the conversation so eloquently.

 

Well, at least it gives Kizza someone to +1 for a change...

 

How about you save your snidey shit for JS2, Mr. Master? Leave the big boys to talk sensibly in the proper forum.

Blow me kza. What makes you think I have any allegiance to Laird? Cause I don't.

Know what you're talking about before you come mouthing off to me.

[+Sauron]

I have already added to the conversation in the last page or two. Go back and read.

Speaking of troll... *cough*

 

So that automatically gives you the right to troll?

 

And yes, if you want to try to insinuate I'm a troll, please be so kind as to point out where I am doing so. Let's please move the discussion back to the Skunkboard instead of making baseless accusations.

[viMaster]

The option to use the skunk's anti-piracy features are optional.

It doesn't have to be used...

I don't see what the big deal is here.

 

Or are people just trying to find faults with the SB3 in order to nullify its existence?

 

My posts have more to do with "the times they are a-changin" then anything else. It isn't a big deal to me, it's a simple discussion about the Skunk's use for future Jag projects. If I had such a problem with its existence, I wouldn't have just put one on pre-order.

Good point. I didn't necessarily mean that last sentence was about you, though it was directed a little at you. I'll move on.

It just seems most of your latest posts in this thread had a "circle-jerk" feeling to them with regards to the reboot & jagware developers.

Nice to hear you pre-ordered a skunk 3 as well. I'm also interested in seeing the other flash device come to fruitition. It will be nice having more options out there.

[+Sauron]

Good point. I didn't necessarily mean that last sentence was about you, though it was directed a little at you. I'll move on.

It just seems most of your latest posts in this thread had a "circle-jerk" feeling to them with regards to the reboot & jagware developers.

Nice to hear you pre-ordered a skunk 3 as well. I'm also interested in seeing the other flash device come to fruitition. It will be nice having more options out there.

 

Glad you felt the need to get one more snide accusation in there. Please show me what other developers besides Reboot and Jagware have released games while providing downloads to them free of charge, and I'll be sure to add them into any future discussions on this subject.

 

And yes, let's please move on.

[sh3-rg]

If I had such a problem with its existence, I wouldn't have just put one on pre-order.

 

...or even started this thread to discuss it in the first place.

[Cebus Capucinis]

Does it play 2600 games?

 

Because that's all I really care about.

 

:evil:

 

Actually I have been wanting a Skunkboard for a while for my dusty unused Jag! I will definitely be getting my hands on this!

[belboz]

I have run a TON of files through the skunkboard both during initial testing, and when writing and testing the SkunkGUI. I had only one time where I got the red screen and that was when I accidentally put in some bogus parameters for the download address. When I fixed the typo it worked fine.

 

I would suspect that 99% of the time this never occurs with users. If the issue wasn't related to an issue like I had, I would bet Tursi is dead on that it is a false positive. Not sure if the ROM image was Tyrants or someone else, but if they work with Tursi I am sure he will iron it out.

[Tyrant]

But you can't provide the name of the beta or give me a way to get access to it, so that I can fix the problem? Instead, you just diss the feature, over and over again.

 

Since it was a beta, and we have repeatedly stated that no betas are on the blacklist, it stands to reason that it's a bug.

The beta was Stones, and I think it was Fight For Life. I'm not sure if it's one that's actually been released or not, and it's not one I have a copy of.

 

Also for the record I haven't dissed it "over and over again", I mentioned it twice in this thread, and nowhere else outside of it that I recall. Stone has also mentioned it, and rightly so, because he was showing a few of us some of the protos and betas he's acquired over the years, and the skunk refused to run one of them on because of a hidden blacklist. I have never agreed with DRM and am not afraid to speak out against its use. Having said that, the skunk is a good tool for developers and has helped breathe new life into the Jaguar, and for that I applaud you. It's just a shame you felt the need to shackle it with a flawed and misguided attempt at restricting what it can be used for.

[+Sauron]

Stone has also mentioned it, and rightly so, because he was showing a few of us some of the protos and betas he's acquired over the years, and the skunk refused to run one of them on because of a hidden blacklist.

 

I think Tursi has been trying to say that the beta not running may have more to do with a bug than with a blacklist.

[Tyrant]

True but it did say it wasn't authorised and thus it's a bug in the blacklist.

[goatdan]

True but it did say it wasn't authorised and thus it's a bug in the blacklist.

 

Which instead of you actually providing until bugged, you just went online to complain about.

 

Out of curiosity, have you released any games? Or anything copyrighted? Because if you haven't, I can totally understand where you're coming from.

 

I've released games. Hell, I released with Tursi Cool Herders for the Dreamcast. I still have brand new copies of Cool Herders that are ready to be sold... but, Cool Herders has been pirated for a while now. I think you'd see if you actually created software that your point about the original copyright holders not making money any more on it is a pretty lousy one -- it's still your right to decide what you want to do with it.

 

Secondly, I work with people in the industry -- I'm a member of the IGDA, I have worked with a variety of large gaming companies for the Midwest Gaming Classic. NONE of those companies would touch me with a 10 foot pole if I came out and said, "When we created this project, we wanted to ensure that people could trample on the rights of all previous copyright holders! Hey High Voltage Software, remember the Jaguar stuff you did? I'm helping people copyright that now!" I mean, seriously? We had some of the team from High Voltage at the MGC last year discussing their new Wii title. How great would it be if they saw a show organizer actively promoting that Tyrant on AtariAge can pirate all the warez he wants because he says it's moral?

 

You find it broken because it won't allow you to pirate warez. It has been said before on here and elsewhere that it *is* allowed to play betas, but we offer no commercial game support and hope that you're not going to do that. We don't have access to every beta that was ever made, so yeah -- sometimes, they might not work right away. That's not a *bug*, that's life of building a project. Why not next time you see something like this, you being proactive and contacting one of us about the issue, and we'll see if we can fix it or if there is a specific reason that won't play?

 

Or, I guess you can just keep trolling if you so choose. Ahoy!

[Tursi]

Anyone who has been in the Jaguar community for a long time knows that it has a tendancy to be volatile. When I decided to commercialize the Skunkboard I decided to take steps to minimize the flamewars that releasing the device would inevitably cause - I did this by talking to the devs, and making agreements with them about what I would do. The blacklist that you are making such a huge deal about, Tyrant, is tiny. It is not updatable and never will be updated - there's no need to since new titles can detect the hardware if they care to. If a bug is found related to it, I will help correct it. Choosing to complain about it rather than help fix it is, in my opinion, a detriment to the entire community. Your personal stance on DRM is just that -- your personal stance. My personal stance is that the peace gained with a tiny change to the firmware was worth the investment of negotiation. I'm not forcing my stance on you (that is, I am not forcing you to use Skunkboard), it would be considered polite and equitable not to force yours on me. I am aware of your opinion and repeating it won't change anything.

 

It seems likely to me, given the specific persons participating, the tone of those persons, and the fact that no such argument arose over revisions 1 or 2, that there is some beef with the timing of the announcement compared to the JagFlash announcement. Organizing this release took a great deal of time, and the announcement of a new product targetted to a different market with an unknown release date is not enough to change our plans. People have been asking for a new run for years, and we are trying to do one last run while it is still possible. Since the Jagware Flash IS targetted to a different market, and likely won't be ready until after this run is sold out, there should be no reason to cast aspirations on this one.

 

(edit: I see at Jagware's forum they hope to take orders by the end of the year - didn't realize they felt they were that close.)

 

There's really not much more to say. I'd like to ask people to knock off the sniping and snide comments on both sides of it. I don't see much need to rehash the same old discussions again and again. Specific questions about the release I will be happy to answer to the best of my knowledge. Anyone who knows about specific bugs with the current firmware, I am asking you to contact me and we will see if we can sort them out. I don't see how I can do more than that.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Tursi

[Tyrant]

It's not warez and I'm not trolling, it's just common sense.

 

Lets take High Voltage as an example. They made some pretty awesome games, and they got paid for them. Hopefully they negotiated a good deal and got paid well for them. But that was 14 years ago. Any royalties they were due have long since been paid. If I buy a game of theirs on eBay, be it new old stock or second hand, they don't get a penny from it. I'm not advocating or condoning the piracy of any game that the copyright holders are currently releasing and making money from. High Voltage have, as you pointed out, moved on and are developing games for the Wii now, which will hopefully make them money, and bring pleasure to the people who play them. But in 15 or 20 years from now those Wii games will be obsolete and abandoned and most importantly NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION, and thus not making them a penny, bought or pirated. They will have moved onto the playstation 6 or whatever is current then. Why can't you move on and why must you keep repeating the same tired arguments loaded with emotionally charged language?

[Tyrant]

Anyone who has been in the Jaguar community for a long time knows that it has a tendancy to be volatile. When I decided to commercialize the Skunkboard I decided to take steps to minimize the flamewars that releasing the device would inevitably cause

I can understand that, back then the "omg pirates!!1" argument was voiced much louder, and I can understand you bowing to it's pressure. It's unfortunate, but understandable.

 

The blacklist that you are making such a huge deal about, Tyrant, is tiny.

Choosing to complain about it rather than help fix it is, in my opinion, a detriment to the entire community.

I wasn't trying to make such a big deal out of it. Stone initially posted about it and I simply echoed his views as we were both disappointed by it.

 

Your personal stance on DRM is just that -- your personal stance. My personal stance is that the peace gained with a tiny change to the firmware was worth the investment of negotiation. I'm not forcing my stance on you (that is, I am not forcing you to use Skunkboard), it would be considered polite and equitable not to force yours on me.

Indeed. I apologise for any hostility I may have directed you way. I realise it must have been a tricky thing for you to release at all given the scenes attitudes, and I accept that you made what you thought was the right choice.

 

It seems likely to me, given the specific persons participating, the tone of those persons, and the fact that no such argument arose over revisions 1 or 2, that there is some beef with the timing of the announcement compared to the JagFlash announcement.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "specific persons participating", I represent the opinions of nobody but myself.

As for timing, the first time I ever used a skunkboard was last weekend, at JFUK (which was only the second time I'd ever seen one in the flesh). As far as I know, Stone had never even seen one before then. The timing is purely a co-incidence I assure you.

 

Organizing this release took a great deal of time, and the announcement of a new product targetted to a different market with an unknown release date is not enough to change our plans. People have been asking for a new run for years, and we are trying to do one last run while it is still possible.

Why would I want you to change your plans?

Hell, I was enquiring after a new run as well, as a backup incase my alpine ever breaks (which, ftr, I do use almost exclusively to write code, although I have no plans for any releases).

 

I don't see much need to rehash the same old discussions again and again.

I agree, I didn't want to get into this either, but at the same time I don't appreciate being accused of being a warez-monkey.

 

Anyone who knows about specific bugs with the current firmware, I am asking you to contact me and we will see if we can sort them out. I don't see how I can do more than that.

Neither do I, sorry if this has caused you distress or inconvenience.

[goatdan]

It's not warez and I'm not trolling, it's just common sense.

 

Lets take High Voltage as an example. They made some pretty awesome games, and they got paid for them. Hopefully they negotiated a good deal and got paid well for them. But that was 14 years ago. Any royalties they were due have long since been paid. If I buy a game of theirs on eBay, be it new old stock or second hand, they don't get a penny from it. I'm not advocating or condoning the piracy of any game that the copyright holders are currently releasing and making money from. High Voltage have, as you pointed out, moved on and are developing games for the Wii now, which will hopefully make them money, and bring pleasure to the people who play them. But in 15 or 20 years from now those Wii games will be obsolete and abandoned and most importantly NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION, and thus not making them a penny, bought or pirated. They will have moved onto the playstation 6 or whatever is current then. Why can't you move on and why must you keep repeating the same tired arguments loaded with emotionally charged language?

 

It's not "common sense" to pirate software and claim that your stance is correct.

 

As for you stating that the games are "obsolete and abandoned", let's see here:

 

Wii Virtual Console

 

Xbox Live Arcade

 

Playstation Network

 

Considering all of those places are currently selling similarly aged software (and much older even) than the Jaguar, and companies are *still* earning money off them, and they are *still* legally copyrighted, I find your argument to be baseless. It's not emotionally charged language, it's *honest* dealings in an industry that I have participated in for years, and I know some of the players in. NONE of them think about their software in the way that you do. And, quite frankly, I would much rather retain my relationships with Atlus, Sony, Sega, High Voltage, Raw Thrills, Play Mechanix, Stern Pinball, Atari, and Microsoft (to name only a few that we've been publicly linked with) than make you happy by allowing you to pirate warez on something I'm going to do, sorry.

[+Sauron]

With all due respect Dan, let's not go overboard here with the name-dropping.

 

I and many others here have worked in the game industry for a number of years. In fact, you'd probably be surprised at how many well-known and established game developers are well aware of this site's existence and even participate here.

 

The issue of "piracy" and ROMs is obviously a touchy subject here, and no one is faulting you for not wishing to endorse them. However, most of the companies who have intellectual property on this and other sites are not unaware of what happens in regards to ROMs for defunct systems. Granted, this will vary from company to company, but very few who released Jaguar games are going to throw a shit fit over ROMs for many of the systems that are covered here, let alone for the Jaguar.

 

It's sad that after all of this time, the Jaguar is still treated like the red-headed stepchild of classic gaming, and the fact that there's even an argument over this only adds fuel to the fire of the Jaguar and its community's reputation.

 

I think what we can all agree on, though, is that the Skunkboard is a fabulous product that's helped invigorate homebrew development. I think discussions of this community's politics don't need to be tied to the device, as any "illicit" activity that could possibly be done with it is greatly overshadowed by the positives that it brings. This is something that all of us can certainly agree on, regardless of on which side of the fence that you sit.

[+Sauron]

It seems likely to me, given the specific persons participating, the tone of those persons, and the fact that no such argument arose over revisions 1 or 2, that there is some beef with the timing of the announcement compared to the JagFlash announcement. Organizing this release took a great deal of time, and the announcement of a new product targetted to a different market with an unknown release date is not enough to change our plans. People have been asking for a new run for years, and we are trying to do one last run while it is still possible. Since the Jagware Flash IS targetted to a different market, and likely won't be ready until after this run is sold out, there should be no reason to cast aspirations on this one.

 

I have to address this as well. Tursi, being relatively close to both the Reboot and Jagware teams, I can assure you that there is absolutely no bitterness in regards to the Skunkboard in relation to Jagware's flash cart. Both devices serve different purposes, and I think all of us are glad that another run of the Skunkboard is happening, regardless of it's timing.

 

Also, I don't think anyone is trying to insult you or the Skunkboard specifically. The only concern that anyone has had is with the "blacklist" feature, and I think the concern is more due to any possible potential of a developer's game being locked from the Skunkboard, particularly for reasons of Jaguar forum politics. At least that's my take on it, anyway. If I'm mistaken in my understanding of those concerns, though, then please feel free to correct me. I'm not saying this to point fingers at anyone, but just to try to clear up any misunderstandings between you and those who have voiced those concerns.

[Fadest]

Note : I speak for myself, not as JAgware representative or something else (that in fact does not exists, there is no JAgware representative)

 

It seems likely to me, given the specific persons participating, the tone of those persons, and the fact that no such argument arose over revisions 1 or 2, that there is some beef with the timing of the announcement compared to the JagFlash announcement.

Maybe I missed something (I have to admit that reading arguments in english is not somethig I am used to), but there is no reason that releasing a new batch of Skunkboards and the JAgware new PCB at the same period could be an issue. These products do not have the same objective.

The Skunk is a developper tool, I have one and am really happy wit it, I won't replace it by a Jagware flashcard. Some of us at Jagware already have a Skunk and we are all happy with it, som who don't have one will probably get one from 3rd run; so there is no acrimony against the Skunk...

 

The Jagware PCB was initially intended as a OTP cartridge for distribution only (cheaper than actual methods). A Flash ROM has been used so it's more easy to flash the cartridge and it can be used as flash cartridge. I will probably buy some in order to distribute my betas to some testers that cannot afford a skunk (or don't want to because they do not see interest in having a flashcard), and of course, if I ever finish a game and choose to make distribution myself (but I guess I will follow the Yastuna road once again), I will use Jagware solution.

 

In fact, the conjunction of Skunk & jagware flash card is a great opportunity, because, an interested developper now know that he can buy a skunk for ease development (USB, ...) and that a proper ans cheap solution exist for distribution. IMO, it's a win-win solution for all of us (skunk promoters, Jagware, developpers, end-users...)