Sonic The Hedgehog on the 2600

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Take this crap to PM please, this not the place. This forum is for fun, not bickering.

Still, if tokumaru is right, this is for sure not the way it should be in this forum, right?

[tokumaru]

I recently realized that nearly all the images I posted in this thread are dead, due to crappy image hosting services. So, for posterity's sake, I'm attaching to this post all the art I ever posted here, which I happened to find today.

sonic-2600-tokumaru.zip

[Albert]

Still, if tokumaru is right, this is for sure not the way it should be in this forum, right?

 

Yes, this discussion is fine.

[CDS Games]

Sprybug's sprites are not the same as yours. Yes, there are very close similarities. The hair is pixel exact, the hands almost so. The color divisions closely match. But you were also both working off an existing model. Sprybug's face, body and legs are pretty different.

 

If he borrowed some concepts from your sprites--even if he started by copying your sprites and then tweaked them into something he liked better, well, ok, but I'm not sure that exactly qualifies as "stealing sprites".

With an 8 pixel width and a single-color line there are only limited combinations that work right. And if something "works" artistically it's no wonder that everyone starts using it. It's like discovering a kernal trick that everyone then uses.

 

I can understand the confusion between this and Zippy is frustrating, but there's a ready answer to that. Keep working on this. Finish it, and the confusion will disappear. This will be your baby, and Zippy will be Sprybug's.

 

How many Pac-Mans do we have now? A couple of Donkey Kongs? Fans of Sonic will not complain about another take on it, I'm sure.

[ZackAttack]

Some inspiration:

 

You know, with bus stuffing something like this could probably be achievable. Though it would be helpful to replace rings with something that can be drawn with missiles and balls too. Like coins, bananas, apples, etc. Or ditch the smooth scrolling and it's super simple to implement.

[tokumaru]

Yes, the sprites are not exactly the same (mine are 9 pixels wide because I used the missile for an extra pixel, Zippy looks like he's always , but the vertical details are distributed *exactly* the same way. Same number of lines for the head, eyes and shiny spot, muzzle, neck, belly and arms, hands, legs, socks, shoes. Everything is distributed exactly the same, what are the chances of that being a coincidence? The shading is the same too, if you compare it to the later version of my sprite (the version you posted isn't shaded).

 

And it's not only Sonic, the item monitors have the same colors, the same technique of alternating grays for the side of the monitor and another color for the item inside it, and the frame with the static looks the same.

 

The end of level sign looks and animates the same, the characters inside it have the same details and shading, they're just scaled down a bit due to the lower vertical resolution.

 

Robotnik uses the same shading I used too, he's just severely scaled down.

 

Any pixel artist knows that there are many different ways to represent details even in such limited environments as the 2600, and yet, many of the techniques I used mysteriously showed up in the exact same places of the exact same objects in that game.

 

Anyone that says this is just a coincidence and thinks that "that's just how Sonic looks under the 2600's limitations" is not a pixel artist. I am one and I can draw Sonic and these objects in dozens of different ways, but yet, mine and Spry's are almost identical, save for a few resolution differences and minor tweaks.

[CDS Games]

Oh I wouldn't say it was just coincidence. I think the similarities are more than just chance, and based on what you're saying with the other sprites you seem to have a pretty strong case where they came from.

 

I'm saying even so, it's not perhaps as much of a faux pas. I posted some sprites for Double Dragon that KevinMos3 liked and partly incorporated into his own hack. I really didn't think anything of it and actually I was honored he did that. Of course he posted as much on the thread, so maybe that open communication helped me not take it the wrong way.

 

I'm a pixel artist too and you're right, there are dozens of ways to depict something even in 8 bits across. But I've spent enough hours on sprites to know there are only a handful of *good* ways.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Did anyone contact Sprybug and asked what happened? IMO it would be only fair to have him in the discussion too.

[tokumaru]

Here's a direct comparison of all the similarities I could spot, in case anyone is curious:

 

 

Did anyone contact Sprybug and asked what happened? IMO it would be only fair to have him in the discussion too.

Sure, please do.

 

Again, I'm not minimizing the work he did on his game. I'm sure it was a lot of hard work, and there are many other sprites in the game that are absolutely fantastic (the Badniks in particular are awesome!), but there clearly was more than just "inspiration" or "hardware limitations" involved in the case of the sprites above, and that wasn't cool.

Edited February 26, 2018 by tokumaru

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Can you post the original graphics too?

[Albert]

Did anyone contact Sprybug and asked what happened? IMO it would be only fair to have him in the discussion too.

 

Yes, I did, and gave him a link to this thread.

 

..Al

[tokumaru]

Can you post the original graphics too?

Sure, but I already attached a ZIP with all of this and more.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I don't know the game, so I have no clue how the original game graphics look like. Which of the graphics above or in the zip are from the original game? Those above all look like Atari 2600 graphics to me.

[tokumaru]

Oh, you meant the Genesis Originals? I can include them in the chart if you want.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Yup, exactly. To be able to make up our mind, we need the Genesis originals too.

[+Gemintronic]

This looks like an interpretation of Tokumarus sprites. The ones marked "Zippy" are lower res. Choosing where to add or subtract pixels from an inspirational source is not an easy, mindless task. Not saying that Tokumaru implied it was.

 

I think Spry and Tokumaru connecting is a great idea at this point.

 

Also, this is why I like to work on original games based on my own I.P. Not that I haven't done otherwise (Conjoined for one)

 

Here's a direct comparison of all the similarities I could spot, in case anyone is curious:

zippy-similarities.png

Sure, please do.

Again, I'm not minimizing the work he did on his game. I'm sure it was a lot of hard work, and there are many other sprites in the game that are absolutely fantastic (the Badniks in particular are awesome!), but there clearly was more than just "inspiration" or "hardware limitations" involved in the case of the sprites above, and that wasn't cool.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Here's a direct comparison of all the similarities I could spot, in case anyone is curious:

 

zippy-similarities.png

 

Sure, please do.

 

Again, I'm not minimizing the work he did on his game. I'm sure it was a lot of hard work, and there are many other sprites in the game that are absolutely fantastic (the Badniks in particular are awesome!), but there clearly was more than just "inspiration" or "hardware limitations" involved in the case of the sprites above, and that wasn't cool.

Those are not even remotely the same. Well vaguely similar but different enough compared to the 16-bit sprites they were inspired from to know they aren't 1:1 rips of your art. Sure you probably inspired him. Sonic and Mario were pretty big sources of inspiration too you know. Probably Sprybug also had to compress them to fit his game engine which is evident here in that some of yours look more detailed. I would at least wait for Spry to give his input before grabbing for the pitchforks...

[tokumaru]

Yup, exactly. To be able to make up our mind, we need the Genesis originals too.

Here they are. I've included the Master System versions too.

[tokumaru]

Those are not even remotely the same.

You're entitled to your opinion, but the several people that contacted me over the years to ask about my involvement with Zippy probably disagree.

 

Well vaguely similar but different enough compared to the 16-bit sprites they were inspired from to know they aren't 1:1 rips of your art.

I said they were nearly 1:1 copies. Certainly more similar to mine than to Sega's. Again, not because of hardware limitations, since stylistic decisions I made carried over to Zippy. Sega's monitor doesn't have scanlines or green static, mine does. Robotnik wears gloves in Sega's version. Sonic's ball form doesn't have a dark "swoosh". The signpost doesn't have a base. If the originals had in fact been used as reference, these details would probably be different in Zippy.

 

At his point, I don't think the question is whether Spry used my sprites as reference for his, but whether he changed them enough for it not to be considered stealing.

 

I would at least wait for Spry to give his input before grabbing for the pitchforks...

My intent was never to start a fight, and I honestly don't expect much to come out of this (not that I'm demanding anything). I'm just tired of being associated with Zippy, and to have people bring it up to me whenever they see my sprites. I don't know what can be done to clear up this confusion this late in the game, I'm just tired of it.

[+SpiceWare]

You're entitled to your opinion, but the several people that contacted me over the years to ask about my involvement with Zippy probably disagree.

 

 

I dunno - if I didn't know better I'd have thought Mappy was using iesposta's sprites.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

OK, now I see what you mean. I am no graphic artist, so others may know better. Anyway here is my impression:

• Not all your examples must be copied from your work, since they seem like a logical solution for the reduced Atari 2600 resolution. 2nd row is pretty unrelated, 4th row items are about the only ways to draw these things on a 2600. Even the 2nd Sonic which is very similar and also very different to the Genesis and Master Systems originals might be simply a logical solution. And the ball is drawn like many balls are drawn on the 2600.
• But especially some monitor graphics (3rd and 5th row) look to me like they are heavily inspired by your work. Especially the hinted vertical framing of the monitors and their added base and the solution for the originally disturbed pictures. Plus the greenish color of the 1st monitor in row 3.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Thomas Jentzsch

[Alp]

You're entitled to your opinion, but the several people that contacted me over the years to ask about my involvement with Zippy probably disagree.

 

I said they were nearly 1:1 copies. Certainly more similar to mine than to Sega's. Again, not because of hardware limitations, since stylistic decisions I made carried over to Zippy. Sega's monitor doesn't have scanlines or green static, mine does. Robotnik wears gloves in Sega's version. Sonic's ball form doesn't have a dark "swoosh". The signpost doesn't have a base. If the originals had in fact been used as reference, these details would probably be different in Zippy.

 

At his point, I don't think the question is whether Spry used my sprites as reference for his, but whether he changed them enough for it not to be considered stealing.

 

My intent was never to start a fight, and I honestly don't expect much to come out of this (not that I'm demanding anything). I'm just tired of being associated with Zippy, and to have people bring it up to me whenever they see my sprites. I don't know what can be done to clear up this confusion this late in the game, I'm just tired of it.

Jesus christ! Why is this community so dismissive of blatant plagiarism!? It doesn't matter if it's somebody else's IP, it's still Tokumaru's pixel art. They could have at least asked first.

 

You wouldn't go and steal a mockup from a pixel art site, and claim it as your own, would you? You'd be lynched by the art community for doing that.

 

I got your back dude, I'll develop a porn parody of Sonic 1, titled "Zippy the Porcupine", starring a porcupine with a big floppy dick, if they can't respect your artistic rights, then I won't respect their rights to a name!

 

When I'm done with it, *nobody* will want to be associated with Zippy. Problem solved.

[tokumaru]

I really appreciate the sentiment Alp, and laughed a lot at your proposed solution, but there's no need to start a war over this.

 

The fact that you do see the problem with the art is very reassuring though, that I'm not just being paranoid. You're one of the very best pixel artists I've ever met online, and you can do wonders under severe limitations, so your opinion does matter a lot to me.

[Alp]

I really appreciate the sentiment Alp, and laughed a lot at your proposed solution, but there's no need to start a war over this.

 

The fact that you do see the problem with the art is very reassuring though, that I'm not just being paranoid. You're one of the very best pixel artists I've ever met online, and you can do wonders under severe limitations, so your opinion does matter a lot to me.

Did I stutter? I was quite serious!

 

NSFW WARNING!!! (Seriously, don't click the link, if you're offended by cartoon dicks.)

Link: https://i.imgur.com/Ygu01xr.jpg

[Sprybug]

Hey guys, Albert let me know about this discussion. I forgot who it was, but someone else let me know about the controversy at PRGE and I went to see if I could find where it was being discussed originally, but wasn't able to find it, but thanks to Albert he clued me in. So anyhow let me set some things straight. When I first started on this project, I was aware of Tokumaru's sprite work and I liked the look of it and planned to use them as reference. However I noticed that there was some pixel liberties that were done that wasn't going to quite work out in the typical Atari sprite hardware's limitations. So I used his sprites as a reference and a model. Yes, the hair did stay the same, however I made changes everywhere else so they would work both vertically and horizontally within the sprite hardware specs, which means I had to change em up. As I was making them, I took some artistic liberties with it, for example I wanted his nose to show, and I wanted the left eye to be fuller, and the body and limbs to be a bit more like a rubber hose character, that you see him as in all the official art work. As you can tell, I didn't have to change much at all when it came to him being hit by something. And as you can also see, I changed up all the other sprites as well for the same reasons I stated before, and because I felt certain things looked better IMO.

However, with this all being said, yes, Tokumaru, I did use your sprite set as a reference and model but not verbatim. It gave me a good place to start when making these sprites.

I always use references when doing art, in fact it's always a good idea to use references. When I did Princess Rescue, I studied sprite sheets of various SMB games and figured out what I needed to do to make them work on the Atari, which meant I had to do quite a bit of altering and some artistic liberties to make it work. So hopefully this cleared some things up and I want to thank Tokumaru for doing those sprites that gave me a good place to start from. Looking back, I probably should had let you know that I was going to use them for reference and should have given you a special thanks credit in the manual. By the time I did the manual (which I always do last), I couldn't remember who's sprites I used as reference, so I apologize for that.