Advice on buying ST

[daznic]

Hi all,

I`ve never had an Atari ST, It was always Commodores when I was a kid & in the last couple of years my interest in the old computers has prompted me to get an Amiga A1200, as well as a C64, Spectrum and recently a Atari 800xl.

I have the Amiga packed away now & the recent Atari purchase has got me interested in maybe trying an ST.

So How easy is it with modern techniques to build up a software collection on the ST ?

On the Amiga I have an internal hard drive, 8mb ram expansion with WHDLoad installed, also a PCMCIA CF Reader to transfer and re-make ADF disk images.

What are the equivalent methods on the ST ?

Many thanks !

[Divya16]

Hi all,

I`ve never had an Atari ST, It was always Commodores when I was a kid & in the last couple of years my interest in the old computers has prompted me to get an Amiga A1200, as well as a C64, Spectrum and recently a Atari 800xl.

I have the Amiga packed away now & the recent Atari purchase has got me interested in maybe trying an ST.

So How easy is it with modern techniques to build up a software collection on the ST ?

On the Amiga I have an internal hard drive, 8mb ram expansion with WHDLoad installed, also a PCMCIA CF Reader to transfer and re-make ADF disk images.

What are the equivalent methods on the ST ?

Many thanks !

 

Advice on buying ST? Don't.

 

Get an STe instead. Given you have an Amiga, Atari 8-bit, etc. you may not be missing much with just an ST.

[daznic]

Hi all,

I`ve never had an Atari ST, It was always Commodores when I was a kid & in the last couple of years my interest in the old computers has prompted me to get an Amiga A1200, as well as a C64, Spectrum and recently a Atari 800xl.

I have the Amiga packed away now & the recent Atari purchase has got me interested in maybe trying an ST.

So How easy is it with modern techniques to build up a software collection on the ST ?

On the Amiga I have an internal hard drive, 8mb ram expansion with WHDLoad installed, also a PCMCIA CF Reader to transfer and re-make ADF disk images.

What are the equivalent methods on the ST ?

Many thanks !

 

Advice on buying ST? Don't.

 

Get an STe instead. Given you have an Amiga, Atari 8-bit, etc. you may not be missing much with just an ST.

 

Sorry, I did mean STe - now can you give me advice ?

[Divya16]

Hi all,

I`ve never had an Atari ST, It was always Commodores when I was a kid & in the last couple of years my interest in the old computers has prompted me to get an Amiga A1200, as well as a C64, Spectrum and recently a Atari 800xl.

I have the Amiga packed away now & the recent Atari purchase has got me interested in maybe trying an ST.

So How easy is it with modern techniques to build up a software collection on the ST ?

On the Amiga I have an internal hard drive, 8mb ram expansion with WHDLoad installed, also a PCMCIA CF Reader to transfer and re-make ADF disk images.

What are the equivalent methods on the ST ?

Many thanks !

 

Advice on buying ST? Don't.

 

Get an STe instead. Given you have an Amiga, Atari 8-bit, etc. you may not be missing much with just an ST.

 

Sorry, I did mean STe - now can you give me advice ?

 

I have a Mega STe w/hard drive, but those may be hard to find so 520STe or 1040STe should do. I have been running stuff from hard drive and some boot floppies so I haven't had any need for using disk images. But my collection is bigger for Atari 800 stuff than STe. I haven't had problems with floppies going bad on STe but have had floppies go bad on Amiga.

[+remowilliams]

What are the equivalent methods on the ST ?

Many thanks !

 

STE is definitely the way to go, if for no other reason that memory upgrades are a nightmare on regular STs. If you want to spend a bit, I recommend checking out a MegaSTE.

 

Most ST games are unfortunately not HD installable. For games that have been converted to be so, check out the excellent patches from dbug and Klaz.

 

For a modern HD replacement (SD card based) check out the UltraSatan.

 

For using floppy images directly on an ST (and other computers) check out the HxC Floppy Emulator device.

[+wood_jl]

I don't understand telling him NOT to buy an ST and only STe. Sure, the RAM is easier to expand with STe, but if you get 1MB on an older machine (1040ST), you can run pretty much everything, unless I'm mistaken?

 

The 1040ST (not e) is a cheap, cheap machine. To buy an STe, one will likely have to win a bidding war on Ebay.

 

The list of software which supports STe features is tiny. The list of older software that won't run - is considerably longer - once again, unless I'm mistaken.

 

From Wikipedia article:

The STE models initially had software and hardware conflicts resulting in some applications and games written for the ST line being unstable or even completely unusable, primarily caused by programming direct hardware calls which bypassed the operating system. Sometimes incompatibility could be solved by expanding the RAM. Furthermore, even having a joystick plugged in would sometimes cause strange behaviour with a few applications (such as the WYSIWYG word-processor application First Word Plus).

 

Very little use was made of the extra features of the STE: STE-enhanced and STE-only software were rare, generally being limited to serious art-, CAD-, or music applications, with very few games taking advantage of the hardware, since it was found on so few machines.

 

From STart magazine, DEC 1990:

 

The software compatibility issue is a bit rockier. Each version of TOS starting with 1.0 (original 520 and 1040), 1.2 (Mega), and 1.4 (Stacy/Mega) has introduced some glitches in existing software and sent developers scrambling madly to patch their programs. However, the TOS in the STE (1.6) is considerably different from earlier versions, for reasons which we shall address shortly. TOS 1.6 is big - 256K, as opposed to the earlier 192K ROMs. As a result, most programs which did not follow Atari's programming guidelines and "broke the rules" by making direct hardware calls to ROM routines are going to fail simply because the ROM routines are not where they once were. Extensive testing by European sources shows that less than a quarter of the available games run on the STE. Games tend to break the rules all the time, usually in the interests of speed. However, even Atari's Microsoft Write failed to run on the STE, so it isn't just the game writers who are guilty of not following the developer guidelines.

 

Pehaps this situation has improved some, but I think this should be made known to someone considering buying an ST, before they buy an expensive STe, and/or are told NOT to buy the original ST. It should be also noted that many STe models have the defective soldered-in DMA chip, which will screw up your hard drive usage, unless replaced.

Edited October 3, 2010 by wood_jl

[+remowilliams]

I don't understand telling him NOT to buy an ST and only STe. Sure, the RAM is easier to expand with STe, but if you get 1MB on an older machine (1040ST), you can run pretty much everything, unless I'm mistaken?

 

If you want to run floppies, or floppy images 1MB is probably fine. If you want to use HD patched software (I'm assuming he has an interest since he mentions WHDload) you probably want more than 1MB. Having more memory also allows you to softload different TOS versions.

[daznic]

I don't understand telling him NOT to buy an ST and only STe. Sure, the RAM is easier to expand with STe, but if you get 1MB on an older machine (1040ST), you can run pretty much everything, unless I'm mistaken?

 

The 1040ST (not e) is a cheap, cheap machine. To buy an STe, one will likely have to win a bidding war on Ebay.

 

The list of software which supports STe features is tiny. The list of older software that won't run - is considerably longer - once again, unless I'm mistaken.

 

From Wikipedia article:

The STE models initially had software and hardware conflicts resulting in some applications and games written for the ST line being unstable or even completely unusable, primarily caused by programming direct hardware calls which bypassed the operating system. Sometimes incompatibility could be solved by expanding the RAM. Furthermore, even having a joystick plugged in would sometimes cause strange behaviour with a few applications (such as the WYSIWYG word-processor application First Word Plus).

 

Very little use was made of the extra features of the STE: STE-enhanced and STE-only software were rare, generally being limited to serious art-, CAD-, or music applications, with very few games taking advantage of the hardware, since it was found on so few machines.

 

From STart magazine, DEC 1990:

 

The software compatibility issue is a bit rockier. Each version of TOS starting with 1.0 (original 520 and 1040), 1.2 (Mega), and 1.4 (Stacy/Mega) has introduced some glitches in existing software and sent developers scrambling madly to patch their programs. However, the TOS in the STE (1.6) is considerably different from earlier versions, for reasons which we shall address shortly. TOS 1.6 is big - 256K, as opposed to the earlier 192K ROMs. As a result, most programs which did not follow Atari's programming guidelines and "broke the rules" by making direct hardware calls to ROM routines are going to fail simply because the ROM routines are not where they once were. Extensive testing by European sources shows that less than a quarter of the available games run on the STE. Games tend to break the rules all the time, usually in the interests of speed. However, even Atari's Microsoft Write failed to run on the STE, so it isn't just the game writers who are guilty of not following the developer guidelines.

 

Pehaps this situation has improved some, but I think this should be made known to someone considering buying an ST, before they buy an expensive STe, and/or are told NOT to buy the original ST. It should be also noted that many STe models have the defective soldered-in DMA chip, which will screw up your hard drive usage, unless replaced.

 

 

Thanks for making this clear for me, an ST would be fine in that case, I don`t mind using floppies if most games will work -( not like the Amiga where you need a A1200 to run any AGA games ? )

The floppy drive SD adaptor looks very promising.

What is the picture quality like on a Scart equipped TV ? - with some Amiga games I struggle to read the text & workbench looks horrible.

[+wood_jl]

I should declare that the other guys in the thread - in all likelihood - have more knowledge and experience; I know for a fact that Remo does.

 

I used a "traditional" ST from launch until about 1990. I was the last guy in my local group of geeks to bail to the PC. I didn't know anybody who had an STe, ever. As I returned to the ST (quite recently), it was important to me that all the old floppy games work. It would foil the nostalgia for them NOT to. For me, a standard ST and the HxC floppy emulator are a dream-come-true. I absolutely wouldn't be surprised if I get an STe to experiment with, but not until I'm stocked up on original STs!

 

What Remo says is right, about the HD thing and more RAM used for playing patched (to run on HD) games. But with the HxC floppy emulator (or a real floppy) you're pretty-well covered. I highly recommend the HxC SD-card floppy emulator. You have to do a bit of tinkering to get it hooked up - lengthen the floppy cable and its power lead - which is small potatoes to lots of retro-enthusiasts, a minor chore for others (like me) who aren't too capable! But it's great!

[Divya16]

I should declare that the other guys in the thread - in all likelihood - have more knowledge and experience; I know for a fact that Remo does.

 

 

My advice was based on the fact that he already owns an Amiga 1200 and many titles that he would get on ST already are better on Amiga 1200 in looks and play. So compatibility was secondary consideration since STe titles would be his main target however small number they are compared to ST titles.

[OldAtarian]

Hi all,

I`ve never had an Atari ST, It was always Commodores when I was a kid & in the last couple of years my interest in the old computers has prompted me to get an Amiga A1200, as well as a C64, Spectrum and recently a Atari 800xl.

I have the Amiga packed away now & the recent Atari purchase has got me interested in maybe trying an ST.

So How easy is it with modern techniques to build up a software collection on the ST ?

On the Amiga I have an internal hard drive, 8mb ram expansion with WHDLoad installed, also a PCMCIA CF Reader to transfer and re-make ADF disk images.

What are the equivalent methods on the ST ?

Many thanks !

 

Advice on buying ST? Don't.

 

Get an STe instead. Given you have an Amiga, Atari 8-bit, etc. you may not be missing much with just an ST.

 

Why an STe? Not much was written to support the features of the STe so why not just get an ST? Even a 520 will run almost everything out there. I used a 520 ST (separate floppy drive) and then a 1040STFM right up until the Falcon030 was released. I never bothered with an STe until a few months ago.

Edited October 3, 2010 by OldAtarian

[OldAtarian]

I don't understand telling him NOT to buy an ST and only STe. Sure, the RAM is easier to expand with STe, but if you get 1MB on an older machine (1040ST), you can run pretty much everything, unless I'm mistaken?

 

If you want to run floppies, or floppy images 1MB is probably fine. If you want to use HD patched software (I'm assuming he has an interest since he mentions WHDload) you probably want more than 1MB. Having more memory also allows you to softload different TOS versions.

 

I've run TOS 3.06 from floppy on my 1040STFM and it runs fine.

[+remowilliams]

I've run TOS 3.06 from floppy on my 1040STFM and it runs fine.

 

It's not so much being able to load another TOS, but having enough memory to do something worthwhile after you have...

[+wood_jl]

I should declare that the other guys in the thread - in all likelihood - have more knowledge and experience; I know for a fact that Remo does.

 

 

My advice was based on the fact that he already owns an Amiga 1200 and many titles that he would get on ST already are better on Amiga 1200 in looks and play. So compatibility was secondary consideration since STe titles would be his main target however small number they are compared to ST titles.

 

If he's looking to best Amiga games with an ST (regardless of "e") then I suggest he save his money. That would be like going from a Cadillac Escalade to a Chevy Tahoe, expecting to be impressed. Even if you get a Tahoe LTZ with leather and all the bells and whistles, you're not going to be impressed. On the other hand, I'm kind of impressed with the Tahoe LTZ but I've never been in an Escalade. <sorry for the poor analogy>

[+wood_jl]

I've run TOS 3.06 from floppy on my 1040STFM and it runs fine.

 

It's not so much being able to load another TOS, but having enough memory to do something worthwhile after you have...

 

 

I didn't even know you could do such a thing!!!! I keep learning here!

[daznic]

Hi guys,

I just want to clarify - please refer to my original post, I do not want to compare the graphics & sound capabilities of the ST to the Amiga, as I said, my recent purchase of an Atari 800xl has got me interested in an ST, my questions were about the ST equivalents of the Amiga storage devices, ability to run games from hard drive, the abilty to re-make disks from images, memory expansion options, screen quality with SCART tv`s WHDLoad equivalents, Compact flash PCMCIA adaptors, etc.

So with moden techniques how easy is it to build up and run a library of ST software.

 

Hope this clears things up !

Edited October 4, 2010 by daznic

[oky2000]

OK first things first. Is it just games you want to run? If this is a case 1mb is all you need, unlike WHDload on Amiga all you need is an ST with as much memory as that game originally required and no extra.

 

STE games are a waste of time, the only one remotely interesting is Stardust, but as Stardust on Amiga 500/2000 is superior and there is Super Stardust AGA which is in another league to Stardust so you aren't missing much.

 

TV output via an RGB SCART cable is very good, readability is down to the TV you are using. 640x200 is not really easy to read on any standard TV due to the low resolution of the actual TV unlike PC monitors which have 400% the resolution even on a 15" CRT SVGA unit. Games will look crisp enough though.

 

Loading different TOS ROMs is another waste of time as well, get a nice early 520STFM and 99% of ST games will work, even the old stuff. STE does not like OIDS or Gauntlet 1 on my setup.

 

ST floppy images can be transferred back to real disks quite easily thanks to the ST using a 99% identical disk format as the PC DD 720k standard. Get a stack of floppies and torrent a massive collection of Pompey Pirates and other group's cracked disk images.

 

With the exception of a MEGA STE (which had 16mhz 68000 option so if it uses polygons like Star Glider II AND doesn

t crash it will run better than 14mhz 020 stuff running A500 version of Star Glider II/Powerdrome etc) you won't gain any improvement on most of the games and STE games are a waste of time if you own an Amiga. Early ST games though like Star Trek/Oids//Gauntlet1/Sundog etc are much more desirable than rubbish badly programmed STE 'enhancements'

[mimo]

 

The floppy drive SD adaptor looks very promising.

What is the picture quality like on a Scart equipped TV ? - with some Amiga games I struggle to read the text & workbench looks horrible.

 

Floppy emulator is a great device, I use mine on my ST and Amiga (probably because I am too dumb to get WHD load working on my 1200:dunce:

 

Picture quality through RGB Scart is far better than the Amiga IMO, I agree with your findings on an Amiga running RGB scart, some stuff is pretty horrible.

[+orpheuswaking]

I love my HxC floppy emulator, I can't recommend it enough (still trying to figure out how to case mod it though)

[tjlazer]

Hi all,

I`ve never had an Atari ST, It was always Commodores when I was a kid & in the last couple of years my interest in the old computers has prompted me to get an Amiga A1200, as well as a C64, Spectrum and recently a Atari 800xl.

I have the Amiga packed away now & the recent Atari purchase has got me interested in maybe trying an ST.

So How easy is it with modern techniques to build up a software collection on the ST ?

On the Amiga I have an internal hard drive, 8mb ram expansion with WHDLoad installed, also a PCMCIA CF Reader to transfer and re-make ADF disk images.

What are the equivalent methods on the ST ?

Many thanks !

 

Advice on buying ST? Don't.

 

Get an STe instead. Given you have an Amiga, Atari 8-bit, etc. you may not be missing much with just an ST.

 

Um an STE is an ST. Don't be silly guys. Any ST you can get for a good price is worth it. From a lowly 520ST to a Mega STE. STE is only good for the easy upgrade to TOS 2.06 and 30 pin simms to fully populate to 4MB, but yer gonna pay for it! Expect 2-4X the price of a regular "ST" Don't buy an STE for the "Amiga" qualities, there is very little software avail to make use of this extra capability. (Think AGA vs ECS and hardly any AGA software avail)

 

I personally like the 1040STf. If you can find the "m" get it so you can use a TV, else get a proper RGB monitor for it and be good! Has built in PS. You can get the 1040STf for around $20 to $50 bucks too!

Edited October 5, 2010 by tjlazer

[+orpheuswaking]

I have an STe and a STf (both 1040)... I started with the STe and only got the STf due to it being part of a monitor lot... I use both machines interchangably and have had no issues with running software on the STe.

[OldAtarian]

Hi all,

I`ve never had an Atari ST, It was always Commodores when I was a kid & in the last couple of years my interest in the old computers has prompted me to get an Amiga A1200, as well as a C64, Spectrum and recently a Atari 800xl.

I have the Amiga packed away now & the recent Atari purchase has got me interested in maybe trying an ST.

So How easy is it with modern techniques to build up a software collection on the ST ?

On the Amiga I have an internal hard drive, 8mb ram expansion with WHDLoad installed, also a PCMCIA CF Reader to transfer and re-make ADF disk images.

What are the equivalent methods on the ST ?

Many thanks !

 

Advice on buying ST? Don't.

 

Get an STe instead. Given you have an Amiga, Atari 8-bit, etc. you may not be missing much with just an ST.

 

Um an STE is an ST. Don't be silly guys. Any ST you can get for a good price is worth it. From a lowly 520ST to a Mega STE. STE is only good for the easy upgrade to TOS 2.06 and 30 pin simms to fully populate to 4MB, but yer gonna pay for it! Expect 2-4X the price of a regular "ST" Don't buy an STE for the "Amiga" qualities, there is very little software avail to make use of this extra capability. (Think AGA vs ECS and hardly any AGA software avail)

 

I personally like the 1040STf. If you can find the "m" get it so you can use a TV, else get a proper RGB monitor for it and be good! Has built in PS. You can get the 1040STf for around $20 to $50 bucks too!

 

It's not a good price when there's a long list of software that won't work with it. A 1040STF or 1040STFM is perfectly fine and cheaper. Even a 520ST or 520STFM will be good for almost everything.

[+remowilliams]

It's not a good price when there's a long list of software that won't work with it. A 1040STF or 1040STFM is perfectly fine and cheaper. Even a 520ST or 520STFM will be good for almost everything.

 

IF you only want to do very no frills floppy only gaming then yes - otherwise no. The OP mentioned an expanded WHDload setup for his Amiga, hence the suggestions...

[+wood_jl]

It's not a good price when there's a long list of software that won't work with it. A 1040STF or 1040STFM is perfectly fine and cheaper. Even a 520ST or 520STFM will be good for almost everything.

 

IF you only want to do very no frills floppy only gaming then yes - otherwise no. The OP mentioned an expanded WHDload setup for his Amiga, hence the suggestions...

 

True. But if he wants to go low-buck (everyone like the sound of that!) here's a 1040STfm for cheap on Ebay ($9.99 + shipping) right now.

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 220677259832

 

The 1040STf/1040STfm is really, really the bargain of the entire lot, and is perhaps most/best representative of the entire series. This is to the Atari-16 what the 800XL is to the Atari-8.

 

I was initially excited about an expanded 520STm, but that's pretty much a pipe dream. A 1040ST needs nothing else to satisfy a huge majority of users, with perhaps nothing but a floppy drive replacement or HxC SD device. I can't stop having fun with mine.

 

I have to admit that as I get further drawn back into Ataris, you guys are actually kind of selling ME on the STe, despite my bit of skepticism.

 

When I first got back into this hobby (Atari computers) in 2007, all I needed was a 130XE and SIO2PC. That's all I'd ever need. Then I needed spares. Then I needed an 800XL. Then I needed spares for it. Then I needed a nice boxed 400 since it was my first computer. I poo-poo'd the ST as something I wasn't nostalgic about, even though I had one from launch day. Then I figured out I was fooling myself; I wanted one - just a 520ST. Then I needed spares. Then I needed one with 1MB since I can't expand the 520ST. Then I needed spares. Not to mention the fact that I've loaded up on expensive cool gadgets and devices for all of the above. Now you have me flip-flopping and wanting an STe. HA HA :)

 

I still think a 1040STf/1040STfm is a good way for him to start. I may keep my eyes open for a 1040STe in the future. The "Atari STE Games and Demos thread" isn't helping me to resist, if it is to be believed.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/170377-atari-ste-games-and-demos/