7800 vs. Colecovision

[kool kitty89]

Sorry, but the 7800 version fails in almost all respects.

 

I agree that it fails on all respects. I don't agree with using that as an example of what the 7800 is or isn't capable of. :-)

 

I also don't think "Double Dragon" was an a+ 7800 effort either. It was done by a pretty crappy developer who also did duds like FIGHT NIGHT and SUPER HUEY on the 7800. The SMS version was done by Sega themselves (an A+ developer). The game was obviously rushed - there are moves and game elements missing and the Abobo sprites are lifted right out of TITLE MATCH PRO wrestling. The game is only 128K (I think the SMS cart is twice the size) and the art direction is pretty mixed throughout. Even as far as 7800 games go, there are titles with better graphics.

Totally agree... and looking at double dragon again in Fusion (with sprite limiting enabled) there's definitely some odd problems separate from the plain 8 sprites per line limit. For some things the flicker is obviously due to sprite limits, but much of the time the flicker has nothing to do with that, like when there's only 2 characters on-screen and you don't have flicker for any pose or animation with both on the same line unless they overlap (it's like Sega initentionally used flicker as a translucent effect to see the player behind the enemy or vice versa).

Most of the attack animation bumps sprite use up to 2 sprites wide at either 24 or 32 pixels rather than the normal 16 (height doesn't matter until you actually hit the 32 sprite hardware multiplexing limit) so when you have more than 3 characters per line where that wider animation segment hits you can get flicker (or even with 3 alone if at least 2 of the characters are attacking simultaneously).

 

I think it's the odd overlapping problem that really exacerbates things. The normal flicker is par for the course for higher-end arcade ports on the SMS. The color optimization is good, PSG music is at least decent, FM music is nice (a shame we didn't get that add-on in the west -and also a shame the expansion port on the western SMS physically lacked the audio input line), but yeah it seemed rushed.

As an arcade port it's undoubtedly closer than most contemporaries (especially 8-bit), but as a standalone game it's a different argument. (the NES version in particular is a unique game with different merits and flaws than the Arcade original or ports thereof)

 

 

 

And yes, few if any games really pushed the 7800 and none went beyond 128 kB. What might have been interesting given the dropped low-cost sound chip and defaulting to POKEY could have been a simple passthrough cart add-on optimized for low-cost and including a POKEY and maybe a bit more RAM after the fact (the sort of things that might have been done if the 7800 had been originally planned for an '85 or '86 release) and then add those features standard to later production models. (they could have simply offer that for the early run and then switched production directly with the revised model -and a cut-down POKEY could still apply there too, again with 24 pins being very realistic with minimal engineering -just a package change with no change to the chip itself just like the AY8910 to AY8913)

[DracIsBack]

Atari didn't spend the cash or put enough effort into quality control for the 7800 releases.

 

Oh, I agree. But with DD, the blame falls to Activision, who was the publisher.

 

Planet Smashers anyone? Some of the recent home brew titles give a glimpse of what the 7800 is capable of and there is probably still a lot of potential to be tapped.

 

Planet Smashers made me bummed. Against Xevious (a GCC launch title) and Plutos or Sirius (Tynesoft unreleased games), it seems silly. Even against other late 7800 titles like Midnight Mutants, Alien Brigade and Scrapyard Dog, it felt like a throwback.

 

 

And yes, few if any games really pushed the 7800 and none went beyond 128 kB.

 

I think Alien Brigade and Crossbow were 144K, but it was immaterial. I remember Mitch mentioning that he had a proto 512K board but no games on 7800 were 512k. (or as Sega would say "4 megabits of power" LOL). According to legend that aborted 7800 RPG Time Lords of Xantos was supposed to be 512K, but Atari stopped it before it was started due to size.

[OldAtarian]

That SMS video is clearly using an emulator as its not flickering and the music is slightly off.

 

Post a video of it on real hardware

 

Or maybe the flickering wasn't as bad as you remember? Still, I'll try to find more videos just to make you happy.

[The_Laird]

That SMS video is clearly using an emulator as its not flickering and the music is slightly off.

 

Post a video of it on real hardware

 

Or maybe the flickering wasn't as bad as you remember? Still, I'll try to find more videos just to make you happy.

 

Somebody has already backed me up that thats being played on a emu with flicker turned off and that the music is wrong. Read up.

 

And I played it very recently and the flicker is shocking.

[OldAtarian]

That SMS video is clearly using an emulator as its not flickering and the music is slightly off.

 

Post a video of it on real hardware

 

Or maybe the flickering wasn't as bad as you remember? Still, I'll try to find more videos just to make you happy.

 

Somebody has already backed me up that thats being played on a emu with flicker turned off and that the music is wrong. Read up.

 

And I played it very recently and the flicker is shocking.

 

I can't find a video that is just gameplay without commentary, but the one I did find that is definitely played on hardware does flicker a bit in some places, but most of the time only when two sprites try to occupy the same space at the same time but it's not bad at all. It definitely doesn't flicker as bad as some 2600 games.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnlsYYSQUl8

 

And don't tell me this is an emulator, too, because you can clearly see the scanlines on the television this is being played on.

Edited November 25, 2010 by OldAtarian

[The_Laird]

Well considering that video was done by a very good friend of mine then I am evry unlikely to question it

 

And the flicker is terrible, just like alot of 2600 (not 7800) games

[kool kitty89]

A good recording from real hardware is tough to properly show it due to deinterlacing artifacts (and lack of capture cards offering 60 FPS recording of individual fields of SD video), but this shows it pretty well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgrQY08zToc

 

 

However, bad flicker is not uncommon with most early hardware sprite based systems (2600, Intellivision, TMS9918 based hardware, A8/5200, C64, NES, SMS, etc with higher and higher limits as times went on and different trade-offs -still notable flicker or plain drop-out without flicker multiplexing on the PCE/TG-16, SNES, and MD -later systems didn't use hardware sprites as such and couldn't flicker but only slow down/timeout) But there was a balance of acceptable use of flicker and optimization to minimize it. Double Dragon doesn't seem to make the best amount of optimization, but the actual trade-offs pushed more heavily towards arcade authentic gameplay at the expense of flicker rather than cutting it back more. (quite a few SMS games pushed for that in a similar manner)

 

Interesting that the 2600 conversion of DD actually modifies the game in such a way to practically avoid flicker completely with enemies tending to stay on separate scanlines from eachother. (the NES simply limits it to few on-screen enemies)

Edited November 26, 2010 by kool kitty89

[OldAtarian]

A good recording from real hardware is tough to properly show it due to deinterlacing artifacts (and lack of capture cards offering 60 FPS recording of individual fields of SD video), but this shows it pretty well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgrQY08zToc

 

 

However, bad flicker is not uncommon with most early hardware sprite based systems (2600, Intellivision, TMS9918 based hardware, A8/5200, C64, NES, SMS, etc with higher and higher limits as times went on and different trade-offs -still notable flicker or plain drop-out without flicker multiplexing on the PCE/TG-16, SNES, and MD -later systems didn't use hardware sprites as such and couldn't flicker but only slow down/timeout) But there was a balance of acceptable use of flicker and optimization to minimize it. Double Dragon doesn't seem to make the best amount of optimization, but the actual trade-offs pushed more heavily towards arcade authentic gameplay at the expense of flicker rather than cutting it back more. (quite a few SMS games pushed for that in a similar manner)

 

Interesting that the 2600 conversion of DD actually modifies the game in such a way to practically avoid flicker completely with enemies tending to stay on separate scanlines from eachother. (the NES simply limits it to few on-screen enemies)

 

I hesitated to use that one because it's being played on a power base adapter for the Genesis and I didn't want anyone saying that the Genesis hardware automatically corrects any of the annoying qualities of the older SMS games. Even in that video, though, the problem is still mainly with overlapping sprites. If I was going to play it on a Genesis, I'd just get the Genesis version as it's very close to perfect.

Edited November 26, 2010 by OldAtarian

[kool kitty89]

I hesitated to use that one because it's being played on a power base adapter for the Genesis and I didn't want anyone saying that the Genesis hardware automatically corrects any of the annoying qualities of the older SMS games. Even in that video, though, the problem is still mainly with overlapping sprites. If I was going to play it on a Genesis, I'd just get the Genesis version as it's very close to perfect.

Nope, just like the 7800, plain hardware compatibility, they didn't even add the FM chip of the Japanese SMS (and add-on for the MkIII). The Genesis VDP is totally dissimilar to the SMS one on a low-level hardware basis, they sacrificed a chunk of the MD VDP to include compatibility. (almost certainly compromising other potential features of the Genesis video modes -same for tacking on the Z80 in the way they did over more comprehensive audio hardware -though they could have configured the Z80 a fair bit more efficiently as it was: ironic given it still needed an add-on to accept carts anyway so the only advantage there was making the adapter cheaper vs a more comprehensive one like the 5200 used -though they could have thought ahead and added more signals to the cart slot to make it more efficient than the 5200 by using the same I/O and video encoder so only sending the analog audio and RGB video though, etc, etc)

 

 

Anyway the only notable difference is a handful of SMS card games are incompatible for some reason and the lack of FM. (they could have added YM2413 FM chip onboard the PBC, but I guess they thought too few of the games supported it for it to matter even though they included it standard on the 1987 release of the SMS in Japan)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And looking again, I think that recording of the other video off a TV screen is hiding a lot of the flicker inconsistently due to the recording method.

Edited November 27, 2010 by kool kitty89

[Phredreeke]

Anyway the only notable difference is a handful of SMS card games are incompatible for some reason and the lack of FM.

 

F-16 Fighting Falcon is incompatible because it used the old TMS9918A graphics mode (for the same reason it fails to run in early SMS emulators). I also recall that a few games that won't work with megadrive controllers (but will work with SMS controllers plugged in)

[ApolloBoy]

I also recall that a few games that won't work with megadrive controllers (but will work with SMS controllers plugged in)

Alien Syndrome and Wonder Boy in Monster Land are a few of the ones that don't work with Genesis controllers. Strangely, they work fine with Genesis controllers if you play them on a Japanese SMS.

[DracIsBack]

Anyway the only notable difference is a handful of SMS card games are incompatible for some reason

 

Fortunately, not too many SMS card based games. I don't even remember any 'killer games' in that format.

[Austin]

I can't find a video that is just gameplay without commentary, but the one I did find that is definitely played on hardware does flicker a bit in some places, but most of the time only when two sprites try to occupy the same space at the same time but it's not bad at all. It definitely doesn't flicker as bad as some 2600 games.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnlsYYSQUl8

 

And don't tell me this is an emulator, too, because you can clearly see the scanlines on the television this is being played on.

 

Wahoo!! Free advertising!!

 

[OldAtarian]

Anyway the only notable difference is a handful of SMS card games are incompatible for some reason

 

Fortunately, not too many SMS card based games. I don't even remember any 'killer games' in that format.

 

Because the cards contained a lot less memory than the cartridges. I think they were offered as a cheaper alternative for developers who didn't need all the extra space in the regular cartridge so they could sell their games at a lower price point.

[kool kitty89]

Anyway the only notable difference is a handful of SMS card games are incompatible for some reason

 

Fortunately, not too many SMS card based games. I don't even remember any 'killer games' in that format.

 

Because the cards contained a lot less memory than the cartridges. I think they were offered as a cheaper alternative for developers who didn't need all the extra space in the regular cartridge so they could sell their games at a lower price point.

Not necessarily, the cards were just a low-cost form factor generally reserved for budget games using embedded glob top ROMs on a smaller PCB. Some of the expansion pins were missing and one address pin from the 44 pin SG-1000 Mk.I/II/III and 50 pin SMS is missing from the 35 pin card connector: so it has 32 kB of flat address space (like the Colecovision) rather than 48 kB on the SG-1000/SMS, but given bank switching was used in either case to go beyond 32/48k, that's not really a limiting factor. (especially given bank switching circuitry was often integrated onto the ROM mask itself)

 

It was just a secondary low-cost form factor Sega offered and they could have cut other pins to allow the full 48 kB address space too. (with the format being introduced back in 1984 for the SG-1000's card catcher add-on)

 

 

Anyway the only notable difference is a handful of SMS card games are incompatible for some reason and the lack of FM.

 

F-16 Fighting Falcon is incompatible because it used the old TMS9918A graphics mode (for the same reason it fails to run in early SMS emulators). I also recall that a few games that won't work with megadrive controllers (but will work with SMS controllers plugged in)

I've heard that before too, but there's conflicting info on whether the MD does or doesn't support the SG-1000's TMS9928 modes or not. (it would be easy to check for anyone with SG-1000 games and an Japanese PBC )

 

If that truly is the case then F-16 Fighting Falcon should boot to the tile screen (which uses the Mk.III/SMS video mode) and then fail to enter the main game.

 

There's at least one other SG-1000 game released in the west on the card format: "Championship Pro Wrestling" (also the sole SG-1000 based arcade game iirc), not to be confused with "Pro Wrestling" on the Master System which used the normal SMS video modes.

[Atari Joe]

7800 vs. ColecoVision is like Sylvester Stalone vs. Tony Danza. Whether it's in the ring or on the TV screen it may be close but it's NO CIGAR.

[mbd30]

7800 vs. ColecoVision is like Sylvester Stalone vs. Tony Danza. Whether it's in the ring or on the TV screen it may be close but it's NO CIGAR.

 

You know, there aren't that many actors where Stallone seems great by comparison. Congratulations Tony Danza.

[ApolloBoy]

I've heard that before too, but there's conflicting info on whether the MD does or doesn't support the SG-1000's TMS9928 modes or not. (it would be easy to check for anyone with SG-1000 games and an Japanese PBC)

The Mega Adapter (which is the Japanese PBC) wouldn't make a difference since everything's up to the Genesis/MD. I've tried an SG-1000 card on my Japanese Mega Drive through the PBC and it displays a black screen. It also did the same thing on my Genesis 2 and my brother's X'Eye.

 

If that truly is the case then F-16 Fighting Falcon should boot to the tile screen (which uses the Mk.III/SMS video mode) and then fail to enter the main game.

And that's what it does. The game actually still plays past the title screen, but the screen is totally blank so you can't tell what's going on.

 

There's at least one other SG-1000 game released in the west on the card format: "Championship Pro Wrestling" (also the sole SG-1000 based arcade game iirc), not to be confused with "Pro Wrestling" on the Master System which used the normal SMS video modes.

F-16 was the only game released in the West that used the SG-1000 video modes. There were SMS games released in Korea that use the SG-1000 video modes as well, but that's about it.

Edited November 29, 2010 by ApolloBoy

[PAC MAN FEVER]

ok wait the atari 7800 is way better than the colecovision just look at this vid My link and this one

you will notice that the 7800 one is better

[jetset]

ok wait the atari 7800 is way better than the colecovision just look at this vid My link and this one

you will notice that the 7800 one is better

 

Goes without saying. Graphically, the Coleco is on par with the 5200 (and in most ways not as good). Not sure what the point of the debate is here trying to compare it to the 7800. the CV stock controllers are (slightly) less horrible is all you could say in the + column for the CV.

[frogstar_robot]

ok wait the atari 7800 is way better than the colecovision just look at this vid My link and this one

you will notice that the 7800 one is better

 

I'll stay out of which one is "better" but I find the music and sound effects on the CV to be a hoot. It's just kind of a cheerful metallic sound.

[kool kitty89]

ok wait the atari 7800 is way better than the colecovision just look at this vid My link and this one

you will notice that the 7800 one is better

At least use real hardware... emulators give the bare colors of the TMS9928 rather than the real world composite skewed colors the games were intended to have.

 

ok wait the atari 7800 is way better than the colecovision just look at this vid My link and this one

you will notice that the 7800 one is better

 

I'll stay out of which one is "better" but I find the music and sound effects on the CV to be a hoot. It's just kind of a cheerful metallic sound.

The 7800's stock audio is a shame... regardless of intended external enhancements, it was a bad move to do that, even for the planned 1984 release. (for 1981-83 it wouldn't have been so bad though) The Famicom did that right (very capable sound hardware for 1983 plus audio in on the cart port -though the NES lacked that)... the SMS was pretty lacking for its time too and it lacked audio expansion too so the FM module used a hack that mixed the audio externally, the western Master System never got that add-on though. (the PCE/TG16 card slot had mono audio input, but never used it -it used the stereo input on the expansion port only for mono ADPCM ironically- while the Genesis has stereo audio in on the cart slot but never used it other than the 32x)

 

There's some things that TIA can do that the SN76489 can't and POKEY might not match identically (both cases excluding CPU tricks), especially stuff for SFX, and POKEY is generally better than either (POKEY+TIA is really nice though). The SN76489 is really bare bones, a shame Coleco didn't opt for the AY8910 like the Intellivision or MSX... same thing for Sega's SG-1000/Mk.II/III/SMS using the weaker SN76489. (AY actually has some advantages over POKEY in some cases compared to the AY8910 which really doesn't have any to a significant extent, but the difference with the SN is much more clear cut as the AY can match anything the SN can do and beat it due to the higher pitch resolution, more flexible noise generation, and hardware ADSR) It's even more odd given the AY's parallel I/O would be quite useful as well. (basically the same functionality as PIA, but with sound built-in -and without the RAM or timer of RIOT)

 

 

 

ok wait the atari 7800 is way better than the colecovision just look at this vid My link and this one

you will notice that the 7800 one is better

 

Goes without saying. Graphically, the Coleco is on par with the 5200 (and in most ways not as good). Not sure what the point of the debate is here trying to compare it to the 7800. the CV stock controllers are (slightly) less horrible is all you could say in the + column for the CV.

It really depends on the game and the optimization thereof as well as things like the amount of ROM used, etc, etc. The 7800 isn't universally superior to the 5200/A8, but it is in some areas, and neither is universally superior to the Colecovision, but they are in some areas. And some games are better suited to one console than the other or were better optimized for said console.

Edited December 7, 2010 by kool kitty89

[Madaracs]

ok wait the atari 7800 is way better than the colecovision just look at this vid My link and this one

you will notice that the 7800 one is better

 

'Cept that Dig Dug for the ColecoVision wasn't even finished. That's a prototype. There was no Dig Dug released for the ColecoVision.

 

-edit- I think a better video comparison would be Eduardo's Pac Man Collection and Bob's Pac-Man Collection with Pokey additions. (Both awesome by the way.)

[kool kitty89]

ok wait the atari 7800 is way better than the colecovision just look at this vid My link and this one

you will notice that the 7800 one is better

 

'Cept that Dig Dug for the ColecoVision wasn't even finished. That's a prototype. There was no Dig Dug released for the ColecoVision.

 

-edit- I think a better video comparison would be Eduardo's Pac Man Collection and Bob's Pac-Man Collection with Pokey additions. (Both awesome by the way.)

You could compare the MSX version.

[DracIsBack]

-edit- I think a better video comparison would be Eduardo's Pac Man Collection and Bob's Pac-Man Collection with Pokey additions. (Both awesome by the way.)

 

In the grand scheme of things, not sure Pac Man is really intended to push either machine, as polished as these versions are.

 

Regardless of what each can or cannot do, it's pretty exciting times for both machines right noe.