Is there a new 2600 cart with Ian's book Slow Year?

[potatohead]

And the people who bought one don't appreciate it how?

 

Seriously! It's not a hostile question, but a honest one. I see things I can't get all the time, and I've got my reasons, as anyone else does. This isn't any different. Seems to me there are a lot of things I can get, so I do.

 

I can totally relate to the idea that there are carts out there not getting played. And the idea that there are people that want to play them. How is this different from a cart in a sealed box, or some rare thing that most folks get to just look at?

 

IMHO, it isn't.

 

And so then it's just a work that targets a different set of people. Those people don't have the same value perception, and are not served by the usual scene here. Should they not be?

Edited December 2, 2010 by potatohead

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Maybe it helps if we agree, that his intention with this high priced sale is not to support the Atari community, but to create some new form of art. And probably you can't sell anything as art if it is too cheap.

 

So, the carts had some fresh ideas and so has its sale strategy (whether you like it or not). Some math:

 

- production costs/cart: $100 (let us be generous here)

- profit: $400 * 25 carts = $10000

- homebrew royalties: $5

- necessary sales for $10000 profit: 2000

 

So if he sells all 25 carts, he made more profit than any Atari 2600 homebrew I know about. It's more like 5-10 times the profit that a top 10 homebrew generates on average. I can only hope that this profit is still low enough, so that our hobby doesn't start to attract people coming for making profit.

[nofrills100]

What you have here is an artwork, which links poetry and artistic observations about atari computer games.

It has been made by an artist and poet. It holds more value than the cartridge in its physical state alone. It is the product of someone who has most probably dedicated the majority of their life to an artistic practice. If you see it purely as something you buy to plug into the VCS and play, then of course you will not understand the price tag. It is more than that.

If you want to talk about the monetary value of this item - you need to look at this in perspective. It is actually a very reasonable price. You would be hard pressed to find an artwork by any practising artist (with integrity) for $500, a sketch or paper print perhaps, but something as developed and substantial as this i doubt it. Unlike a homebrew game, it is also potentially an investment; in that, as the artist continues through and develops their career and practice, they may gather a following and make a name for themselves, thus increasing the demand for their artworks and increasing the value of their works.

A lot of you will still not understand this. A lot of you will not 'get' art in general, unless it is a perfectly rendered painting of a landscape or portrait, which ultimately you will think is great art based on what you perceive is technical expertise.

[iwan-iwanowitsch-goratschin]

I hope that the elite of the die-hard collectors will enjoy that release. I enjoy poetry and art very much and therefore I like Ian´s set. It´s simply different.

 

Furthermore it´s impossible to denunciate Ian neither for the limited release and the pricing nor for the fact that some of us are poor buggers...............

[the.golden.ax]

Maybe it helps if we agree, that his intention with this high priced sale is not to support the Atari community, but to create some new form of art. And probably you can't sell anything as art if it is too cheap.

 

So, the carts had some fresh ideas and so has its sale strategy (whether you like it or not). Some math:

 

- production costs/cart: $100 (let us be generous here)

- profit: $400 * 25 carts = $10000

- homebrew royalties: $5

- necessary sales for $10000 profit: 2000

 

So if he sells all 25 carts, he made more profit than any Atari 2600 homebrew I know about. It's more like 5-10 times the profit that a top 10 homebrew generates on average. I can only hope that this profit is still low enough, so that our hobby doesn't start to attract people coming for making profit.

 

 

 

...well, it's like he said. It was a slow year

 

AX

[jahfish]

Some math:

 

- production costs/cart: $100 (let us be generous here)

- profit: $400 * 25 carts = $10000

- homebrew royalties: $5

- necessary sales for $10000 profit: 2000

 

you can surely do some maths for a regular homebrew game ... but this isn't exactly just a game, neither does it target regular gamers, neither is the "gameplay" concieved to bring hours and hours of fun to hardcore gamers.

 

ian targets people in the art world, people who don't give a damn about a 25$ homebrew game for a 30 years old console because they're more busy worrying about painters & writers than programmers. and through his set, he might attract different kinds of people to our beloved hobby. i think we should worry less about the price and rather accept that this might be something that in the long end contributes to the hype of our beloved console, and therefore will let the 2600 live forever in everyones head, not just in our little collector brains.

 

take a website like boingboing and do a search for atari 2600!

 

what do you get?

 

mostly stuff like http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/20/paintblogging-with-c.html

or the giant CX-40 joystick ....mainly art projects or merchandise related to the console

plus a few infos of rare stuff that most of us won't get their hands on, like the find of a unique prototype and stuff like that

 

also look at how many clothing companies are using old retro videogame elements in their designs ...

 

all this helps to keep the 2600 memories alive ... and to attract new people to the hobby or just to impress kids that would otherwise possibly not ever get in contact with a 2600!

[jahfish]

I can only hope that this profit is still low enough, so that our hobby doesn't start to attract people coming for making profit.

 

OMG, imagine bill gates gets the 2600 fever and produces 10.000.000 Windows2600 carts in 2011

[potatohead]

@Thomas: It won't go that way, because the kinds of people who see value like that are not inclusive of the set of people (us) who don't.

 

Homebrew gaming, like what we see here, is a entirely different thing --a point made early on by Ian, who clearly is blazing a different path.

[Crazy Climber]

And the people who bought one don't appreciate it how?

 

Seriously! It's not a hostile question, but a honest one. I see things I can't get all the time, and I've got my reasons, as anyone else does. This isn't any different. Seems to me there are a lot of things I can get, so I do.

 

I can totally relate to the idea that there are carts out there not getting played. And the idea that there are people that want to play them. How is this different from a cart in a sealed box, or some rare thing that most folks get to just look at?

 

IMHO, it isn't.

 

And so then it's just a work that targets a different set of people. Those people don't have the same value perception, and are not served by the usual scene here. Should they not be?

Don't get me wrong here, as I stated, it's his cart and he can do whatever he wants with it. I don't feel he 'owes' it to us and I can understand that he wants to make a profit, thats totally fine. I guess more than anything I am just let down that we the atariage community were not included on the cartridge release (well, unless we have $500 to spend which most of us do not) since this is our kind of thing, new games we can play on actual hardware and especially such a strange and innovative game. I'm not losing any sleep over it, just bummed out that this is the only way to get it on cart. I was excited about this game, now I know in the future not to get my hopes up since it is clear he is going in a different direction...

[potatohead]

Yeah, that's fair. I feel a twinge of that, because I like playing carts too, though there is lots to play, so it's not really a bother. Could always make some of my own too. Anyway, each new thing either found, or made is kind of special, because it's amazing it happens at all, so I hear that.

 

Maybe a different cart can be made at some point? (a non art cart, LOL!!!)

 

You know, I never did ask if it was profit. Kind of wanted to, but that is generally bad form, so I won't.

 

I suspect it wasn't all about that. I think the real question of value and worth and how that impacts works for the machine is foremost. The only way to ask that is to put a value proposition out there and see what happens.

 

In my line of work, the selling of software is a big component. Basically, we deal with that and value day in and out, and the most interesting part of the whole thing is why people buy expensive software as opposed to cheap software, where both can accomplish nearly the same things.

 

Most of the time it comes down to perception, and some time / labor savings. The cheaper stuff is seen as cheap, and for those wanting to do "serious" tasks, that's often a negative. The time / labor factor comes into play where the needs align well with some very specific features, where most of the task is the same otherwise.

 

That can be worth tens of thousands of dollars! Just a few little things!

 

Recently, we had a product in house that was being offered at a fairly low price. It was moving well enough, but one of us thought about the time / labor aspect and realized that the value was actually quite high! The price was raised on a new offering, and the software sells better!!

 

I'm not saying that will happen with VCS carts. (well, I hope it doesn't, and think it won't) But, that's the kind of question that sometimes brings very intriguing answers.

 

In that context, it's companies, and often some powerful people buying software, and dollars are not the kind of concern they are for this hobby. So it's different.

 

But, I am intrigued by the people that would pay. Why? What is the value there. Is it just Ian, or the medium, or ??? There are some real artists out there banging on this stuff too. They clearly see it differently than we do. So, what does that stuff mean?

 

That's all I was getting at early on. So far, it's a great story! Iconic machine produced in numbers sufficient to get us through the dark ages, then early home brew, up through the current time, which is kind of amazing really! A look at Harmony, Batari Basic, and the many out of the park good games produced, with features that were basically though impossible, all adds up to something damn cool in my book.

 

So, those questions are relevant, and I think somebody is going to ask them eventually, and the answers are interesting to me, because the story isn't over.

Edited December 2, 2010 by potatohead

[Crazy Climber]

Yeah, that's fair. I feel a twinge of that, because I like playing carts too, though there is lots to play, so it's not really a bother. Could always make some of my own too. Anyway, each new thing either found, or made is kind of special, because it's amazing it happens at all, so I hear that.

 

Maybe a different cart can be made at some point? (a non art cart, LOL!!!)

 

You know, I never did ask if it was profit. Kind of wanted to, but that is generally bad form, so I won't.

 

I suspect it wasn't all about that. I think the real question of value and worth and how that impacts works for the machine is foremost. The only way to ask that is to put a value proposition out there and see what happens.

 

In my line of work, the selling of software is a big component. Basically, we deal with that and value day in and out, and the most interesting part of the whole thing is why people buy expensive software as opposed to cheap software, where both can accomplish nearly the same things.

 

Most of the time it comes down to perception, and some time / labor savings. The cheaper stuff is seen as cheap, and for those wanting to do "serious" tasks, that's often a negative. The time / labor factor comes into play where the needs align well with some very specific features, where most of the task is the same otherwise.

 

That can be worth tens of thousands of dollars! Just a few little things!

 

Recently, we had a product in house that was being offered at a fairly low price. It was moving well enough, but one of us thought about the time / labor aspect and realized that the value was actually quite high! The price was raised on a new offering, and the software sells better!!

 

I'm not saying that will happen with VCS carts. (well, I hope it doesn't, and think it won't) But, that's the kind of question that sometimes brings very intriguing answers.

 

In that context, it's companies, and often some powerful people buying software, and dollars are not the kind of concern they are for this hobby. So it's different.

 

But, I am intrigued by the people that would pay. Why? What is the value there. Is it just Ian, or the medium, or ??? There are some real artists out there banging on this stuff too. They clearly see it differently than we do. So, what does that stuff mean?

 

That's all I was getting at early on. So far, it's a great story! Iconic machine produced in numbers sufficient to get us through the dark ages, then early home brew, up through the current time, which is kind of amazing really! A look at Harmony, Batari Basic, and the many out of the park good games produced, with features that were basically though impossible, all adds up to something damn cool in my book.

 

So, those questions are relevant, and I think somebody is going to ask them eventually, and the answers are interesting to me, because the story isn't over.

Yeah, to me it's just the Yoga cartridge all over again. I got super excited when I heard about a Yoga style game in production that utilzes the joyboard for a "zen" style meditation, woah, how cool is that! On top of it we are getting it from an all new programmer, sweet, more homebrew programmers on the scene with new creations and ideas, this is too cool! Anyways, lucky me I find it for sale at the Midwest gaming classic. Now a big part of me knew this game would be nothing spectacular and not my style but I encourage innovation and will pretty much buy any Atari hombrew to show my support and encourage future releases. I immediately rush over to the guys table (I think it was 8-bit classics or something?) and ask for one.....what!...the game is how much!? $300!! and there is only 10 being made and no other carts will be produced?! In his defense it did come with a bunch of goodies, but I offered $50 for just the cartridge and I got an exaggerated laugh That probably should have been my first sign to avoid getting my hopes up for further releases. I walked away from the booth feeling like that kid I used to be years and years ago that wanted the new games but didn't have the money (or rich parents) to get them. It really was kind of a sad flashback, the brand new game I was so excited to play was right there in front of me but all I can do is look. Never thought I would feel like that again as an adult... You bring up an interesting point with your software refferences. Companies have two versions that basically do the same thing but one costs way more and you get some extra bells and whistles. It's just too bad we don't have that option here as I badly want to support this guys games since they do look cool. Not sure why I am trying so hard to play somebodys games that obviously does not want me to play them but really it's just an Atari game and there are plenty of other homebrew authors that WANT me to play there games, not concerned with how much profit they make. I will glady give them my money over this guy anyday Thats enough for me on this one, time to start the decission process for my Atariage Christmas order....what will I get this year, will there be a holiday cart yet? I am glad we have such a great Homebrew scene and I thank all the programmers that make this possible

[Cebus Capucinis]

will there be a holiday cart yet?

 

Considering last year's holiday cart is still supposedly "in production".... :ponder: (We all know we'll never see it)

[nofrills100]

Not sure why I am trying so hard to play somebodys games that obviously does not want me to play them but really it's just an Atari game and there are plenty of other homebrew authors that WANT me to play there games, not concerned with how much profit they make. I will glady give them my money over this guy anyday

 

You are still missing the point that it is an artwork made by an artist, and not a 'game' in the true sense of what we play and collect here. As an artist you can't be making work and selling it for price'X' and then suddenly come out with a new work using the VCS as its medium, and offer it for 1/10 of price'X' - you would be undermining the value of your work past and present. And to produce a larger run of more carts off the side of this project would also be undermining the 25 sets that you were asking price'X' for.

It seems that some of the ROMS have been released, so indeed you can play the 'game' if that is what you really want to do. I assume that the author allowed the release of these ROMS, in which case he does want to make it accessible for you to play the game at no profit to himself. But if you want to own the physical cart, the actual artwork, to add to a collection (and no doubt you probably have a serious collection), then it must be veiwed as a Chase the Chuck Wagon, or a Glib, or a Music Machine, games that are not generally bought for gameplay, but because of their collectible nature, are sought after by serious collectors.

This isn't just another homebrew, it is a collectible item, albeit collectible mostly in the eyes of those that are not associated with atari collecting, but never-the-less something that is already pushed into the realms of Chase the Chuck and others. You need to weigh up then, if you think it is appropriate to be part of your collection, or if it is something that, although uses the VCS medium, is not actually a 'game' that needs to be on your shelf with the others, but instead a valuable artwork.

I wouldn't take it personally, not everything is to be owned, some things are simply to be admired.

I would love to have this too, not even to play really, just to admire.

[Silvio Mogno]

Being a homebrewer myself, I really don't like the idea of creating arbitrary rarity only to sell extremely overpriced.

 

But obviously it works.

 

That's 100% my opinion. And who can say Thrust (or Rainbow Invaders or any homebrew) is not a piece of 8 bit art? And our great label pictures and manuals aren't art ??? IMHO modern art is too a subjective concept. Classic art is more objective and universally acknowledged.

[the.golden.ax]

My 2 cents... I think people would love to have this package, they just can't afford it.

 

AX

[ibogost]

The $500.00 price tag shouldn't be what everyone is talking about...

 

The amazing graphics that have been pumped out of the 2600 is what everyone should be talking about. I have never seen anything come close to that in any game for our beloved system.

 

Absolutely stunning and amazing! I am blown away.

 

Hey, thanks! That means a lot!

[Cebus Capucinis]

My 2 cents... I think people would love to have this package, they just can't afford it.

 

AX

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I would love to have it, and am hoping there will still be some left when I get the $$$ in a couple weeks. I think it's a very unique and awesome concept and I'd love to be a part of it.

[ibogost]

And for everyone who is curious about the games on the cart - here are the ROMs for 2 of the 4 games:

 

These are actually very old versions of these games, prototypes really.

[the.golden.ax]

And for everyone who is curious about the games on the cart - here are the ROMs for 2 of the 4 games:

 

These are actually very old versions of these games, prototypes really.

 

 

Any chance of an unlimited release with just a cart and paper manual/poems?

 

AX

[ibogost]

Ok, just a quick general reply to a number of the points that have been raised in this thread.

 

I knew going in to this that many of you wouldn't appreciate the choices I made for this game, either in the game itself or in the way I'm distributing it. That's fine. I won't deny you your opinions on the matter, I understand why you might have them. Perhaps you'll also consider why I'm doing what I'm doing, and appreciate it for what it is rather than for what it isn't. That's an invitation, not a demand.

 

I'm trying to do something specific with the Atari. It may or may not be "new" or "good" to different people, but it's exactly what *I* wanted it to be.

 

One more thing: a few people have brought up the question of profit. If any of you think that I'll ever get rich from this, you're sorely mistaken. If you want to gripe about indie profiteering, go after the me-too digital distributed puzzle platformers. I've sunk considerable cash into this production in order to make it exactly what I wanted. There was no advance, no Kickstarter hedging. This is a niche product, like most art, which rarely makes any money for anybody. That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with making money through one's work, whether that work is writing or speaking or fixing motorcycles or making Atari games.

[ibogost]

Any chance of an unlimited release with just a cart and paper manual/poems? AX

 

Would you have a problem with someone (me) buying the regular CD and booklet edition and paying to have the .bin put on a cart through AtariAge? I wouldn't attempt to replicate the Limited Edition cart labels or anything. I just want to play it properly on a console.

 

Or, perhaps you could release a sort of 2nd tier edition in between the two available now that includes a cart but no fancy leather cases or editions or signature?

 

This is a tough question to answer. I've made a commitment to those who want the limited edition that I won't market and sell another cartridge version. However, I do hear and appreciate what you're saying. It's true that the experience of the game is different on the original hardware. I'm sure this won't be a satisfying response, but for now I'll say that I'm going to think about this further.

[Syntaxerror999]

Is there actually a catridge to go along with this? Or is it 'art' meant to look like something running on a real 2600?

 

http://www.opentexture.com/products/aslowyear/

 

and the only way to get a cartridge is $500?? OOOFF???

 

http://www.opentexture.com/products/aslowyear/limitededition.aspx

 

thoughts? (sarcasm) see, ebert, video games ARE art, pretentious and overpriced! (/sarcasm)

 

WTF is this? GAh I hate art that requires you to have a PHD or be a total douche to "get". Like those crappy French films that have a rose in the background to signify *insert here* and your an idiot if you don't get it.

[Crazy Climber]

Not sure why I am trying so hard to play somebodys games that obviously does not want me to play them but really it's just an Atari game and there are plenty of other homebrew authors that WANT me to play there games, not concerned with how much profit they make. I will glady give them my money over this guy anyday

 

You are still missing the point that it is an artwork made by an artist, and not a 'game' in the true sense of what we play and collect here. As an artist you can't be making work and selling it for price'X' and then suddenly come out with a new work using the VCS as its medium, and offer it for 1/10 of price'X' - you would be undermining the value of your work past and present. And to produce a larger run of more carts off the side of this project would also be undermining the 25 sets that you were asking price'X' for.

It seems that some of the ROMS have been released, so indeed you can play the 'game' if that is what you really want to do. I assume that the author allowed the release of these ROMS, in which case he does want to make it accessible for you to play the game at no profit to himself. But if you want to own the physical cart, the actual artwork, to add to a collection (and no doubt you probably have a serious collection), then it must be veiwed as a Chase the Chuck Wagon, or a Glib, or a Music Machine, games that are not generally bought for gameplay, but because of their collectible nature, are sought after by serious collectors.

This isn't just another homebrew, it is a collectible item, albeit collectible mostly in the eyes of those that are not associated with atari collecting, but never-the-less something that is already pushed into the realms of Chase the Chuck and others. You need to weigh up then, if you think it is appropriate to be part of your collection, or if it is something that, although uses the VCS medium, is not actually a 'game' that needs to be on your shelf with the others, but instead a valuable artwork.

I wouldn't take it personally, not everything is to be owned, some things are simply to be admired.

I would love to have this too, not even to play really, just to admire.

Music Machine and Chuckwagon are actually pretty fun to play, Glib sucks though

As far as the whole 'art' thing is considered, how many of these packages do you think he could sell here on Atariage for $475 if no cartridge ($25) was included? My guess is zero....but I guarantee since a cartridge IS included many of his sales are or will be from Atariage members or at the very least Atari cartridge collectors. Sorry but I just don't buy the whole it's expensive because it's 'art' thing. It's expensive so he can make money and it's his game and he can do that if he wants, there is nothing wrong with that....but by not giving any other option to us cartridge collectors to play the cartridges he made except for paying him $500 you can't really expect me to support that...

[Miss 2600]

 

 

You are still missing the point that it is an artwork made by an artist, and not a 'game' in the true sense of what we play and collect here. As an artist you can't be making work and selling it for price'X' and then suddenly come out with a new work using the VCS as its medium, and offer it for 1/10 of price'X' - you would be undermining the value of your work past and present. And to produce a larger run of more carts off the side of this project would also be undermining the 25 sets that you were asking price'X' for.

 

 

 

That is very insightful. It gives me a new perspective. Thanks. But I guess anyone designing a game could consider himself an artist and ask for what he believes his work is worth. It just depends on the intention of the work: i.e. to have as many people as possible play and enjoy it or to create something to be valued and admired.

 

I guess I have a problem figuring where the "art" is in this work based on just the trailer. The trailer doesn't show the gameplay or where poetry is involved. I'm actually considering getting the cheap disc version just to find out what it is all about.

[eshu]

Any chance of an unlimited release with just a cart and paper manual/poems? AX

 

Would you have a problem with someone (me) buying the regular CD and booklet edition and paying to have the .bin put on a cart through AtariAge? I wouldn't attempt to replicate the Limited Edition cart labels or anything. I just want to play it properly on a console.

 

Or, perhaps you could release a sort of 2nd tier edition in between the two available now that includes a cart but no fancy leather cases or editions or signature?

 

This is a tough question to answer. I've made a commitment to those who want the limited edition that I won't market and sell another cartridge version. However, I do hear and appreciate what you're saying. It's true that the experience of the game is different on the original hardware. I'm sure this won't be a satisfying response, but for now I'll say that I'm going to think about this further.

 

Surely anyone with harmony cart can just stick the .bins on there? - won't cost all that much more than having a cart made.....