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Preference: Commodore 64 or 64C?


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Won't the original motherboard and keyboard work it the new shells?

The new cases are being turned out from the original C64C case injection molds, those have mounting points for either motherboard and the keyboard assembly is the same between all of the cases (and indeed the C16 and VIC 20 versions) so there's nothing to stop someone getting the Breadbin-coloured new case and dropping any board they fancy into it.

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I don't know why so many people believe that the C-64c all have different motherboards than the breadbin model. They don't. The first C-64c machines had the same board, chip for chip as the latest model Breadbins. The same SID and all.

There are cost reducing boards that were introduced, ending with the "short" board which is quite different.

 

 

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I don't know why so many people believe that the C-64c all have different motherboards than the breadbin model. They don't. The first C-64c machines had the same board, chip for chip as the latest model Breadbins. The same SID and all.

There are cost reducing boards that were introduced, ending with the "short" board which is quite different.

 

 

 

This is correct. Commodore also used parts as they had them...you could get different keyboards, motherboards and so on. I have two C64C models. One has the original board and SID chip and the other has a CR board with the later revision SID. You can always tell which board you will get if you can have a look into the cartridge port area and see what orientation the fuse is sitting in without the need of opening the machine.

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As a rule of thumb, I have learned that keyboards with all the graphic symbols printed on the top of the key caps tend to be the newer, short board with 8580 SID, while keyboards with the graphic symbols printed on the front just like with the older breadbin brown keyboards belong to the first generation C64C with the older board and 6581. However I'm fully aware that you can mix and match any way you like it, and possibly Commodore did too, in particular when they switched from one to the other. Having a look into the cartridge port for the fuse probably is a more definitive method, if you have access to the computer.

 

I also think that C64C that are screwed together generally have the older board, and those that snap together with plastic clips are the newer board, but just like with keyboards the cases may be mixed and matched to some degree.

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Well, the discussion in this particular thread is not about different brands or computer models, only different revisions of the same computer model. Even saying they prefer the C128 or SX-64 in favor of any of the C64 models would be stepping a little off the topic.

Your discussion of what is or is not on topic is off topic.

Seriously, has any discussion that has lasted over 10 messages ever been 100% on topic on this forum?

 

FWIW, my choice of the breadbin over the 64c case is completely based on color, not case style.

If it were the breadbin vs the new 64c case in breadbin color or the SX-64 two tone colors, I'd go with the new case either way.

The lower keyboard is better for typing, and it looks sleeker. I just don't like the original creamish color. It's so meh...

 

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Well old topic, but I've got a new reason to prefer the 64C, at least the smaller board ones.

 

With the addition of two sockets (one for the VIC and one for the crystal) and a jumper I can easily switch my 64C back and forth from NTSC/PAL :D

 

remo, you're light-years ahead of me ( and a shitload of others).

 

Have you any info on this mod, even if only for mere observation for those who are too unsure/pussy to perform the mod? Need the info!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Is there a way to type in a command and find out which version you have? On the Atari 8-bits you could type in "PRINT PEEK(65527)" to find out which version of the OS you are running, amd "PRINT PEEK(43234)" to find out the revision of BASIC you are running. Anything similar in Commodore land to determine anything inside the 64?

 

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I stumbled across this..... https://ilesj.wordpress.com/2010/07/01/how-to-identify-c64-and-sid-model/

 

From what he says, if you look inside the expansion port (the 64C) and you see the fuse the LONG way, you have the OLD motherboard with the 6581 SID. If the fuse is pointing towards you, you have the newer, short board with the 8580 SID. This coincides with what others have said above.

 

I guess I have the best of both worlds, as I really like the looks of the 64C better, and I have the older board in mine, with the 6581. YEAH ME!!

 

I have another 64C in a storage locker somewhere. I will have to dig it out and see what board that one has in it. Can not wait for my 1541 Ultimate II+ to arrive. Ordered it two months ago, so it should be coming soon!!!

 

BTW... I have the NEWER keyboard, with the graphics symbols on top of the keys below the letters. Not on the font of the keys.

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Except that Commodore merged the BASIC and KERNAL ROMs into one, I don't think codewise there are any differences from the old version. Here is a list of known firmware for those inclined to have a closer look:

http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/firmware/computers/c64/index.html

 

There may be other ways to determine exact model, like doing various timing tricks with the VIC-II chip or read out values with the SID chip but nothing that I can recall as being an easy method. To me it seems the C64 was pretty much one model with a few hardware revisions, unlike the Atari 8-bit which were a series of models that were nearly completely backwards compatible.

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There may be other ways to determine exact model, like doing various timing tricks with the VIC-II chip or read out values with the SID chip but nothing that I can recall as being an easy method.

Trying to "pop" the volume register is a simple test, writing a BASIC listing to push 0 and 15 to 54296 in a loop...

 

1 POKE54296,0:POKE54296,15:GOTO1

...should produce a farting noise on a long board and pretty much silence on the short one (disclaimer: i'm writing this code from memory and without sound to test it under emulation). Check the volume of your telly or whatever is being used with some music beforehand and then power cycle the C64 to reset the SID.

 

There are more complex ways to check like the one used by a couple of demos - Mathematica by Reflex has a check - and i think it's setting channel 3 to waveform $51, that doesn't exist on the 6581 but is a mix of $11 and $41 on an 8580 so the two look different when reading the channel's output.

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Except that Commodore merged the BASIC and KERNAL ROMs into one, I don't think codewise there are any differences from the old version. Here is a list of known firmware for those inclined to have a closer look:

http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/firmware/computers/c64/index.html

 

BASIC is always the same on all models, the KERNAL however underwent 2 major changes (not counting in the SX Kernal or localized versions with different keyboard layout) that can be identified by entering

 

poke 1024,1

 

right after power up:

 

If you see a white A at the top left corner of the screen your C64 has the original rev 1 kernal. Afaik this one has been only found in some of the oldest NTSC machines so far.

 

If you see no A at all it is the somewhat more common rev 2 kernal which contains some bugfixes in the RS-232 routines.

 

If you see a light blue A it's the final rev 3 kernal which has a bug in the screen editor fixed.

 

If you have a PAL C64 you can also simply run this nifty program to identify the custom chips without having to open the case, unfortunately it doesn't run on NTSC.

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  • 2 months later...

Remember, also, during the 90s there was a 64C case kit which accepted the older boards from bread-box brown C64s, so it is possible to run into units which look like a 64C but do not have the Rev E board in them. I have never had a preference between the two other than 64C looks more like the 128 and the slots in the back are great for holding disks.

 

The 128 look feels more uniform for the modern age, a bridge to the Amiga, if you will. The breadbox holds down its roots in the VIC-20. Forward-looking versus backward-looking, I suppose.

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  • 4 weeks later...

The first computer I ever saw in real life, was a Commodore 64 'breadbin' model. This experience has left a very deep nostalgic imprint upon my very self.

I had since the privilege to use a few other breadbin C64 units, until my friends started having the C64C version.

I remember seeing my first C64C on a store window, and mistaking it for a C128 at first. It was so weird and exciting to see a familiar computer in a 'modernized' shape and brighter shade!

My friends didn't believe me, when I told them about it, until, of course, they got those C64Cs themselves.

Eventually, I managed to materialize such a wonderful computer-entity into my own possession as well, and the fun times I had with it can probably never be surpassed by anything.

(I'll probably look out the UFOship window, watching the Earth shrinking away into the distance, and nostalgize about the C64 times of my childhood..)

My programmer friend also had a 'breadbox' version, with a completely smooth front from all the programming (keeping hands there while typing had 'smoothed' the surface).

I am explaining all this, so the readers can better understand my difficulty on choosing; in a way, I hold two conflicting preferences in me simultaneously. On one hand, I prefer the C64C, because it looks sleek, it's brighter, it's more 'friendly'-looking, and more modern. I prefer it, because it was the only "MY C64" that I ever had during those childhood and early teenage years.

It was my beloved, cherished gateway to a wonderful world that most people back then didn't even know existed. I even lost my moden and BBS-virginity to the C64C (one of the very most exciting times I ever had, when the connection happened the first time and I was able to read text from someone else's computer in my very own C64 screen!)

The C64C is the computer that gave me the first opportunity to express myself by sprites and simple BASIC programs, where tiny sprite guys run around the screen and things happen (for example, 'Batman' and 'Ninjas' and such).

It's still nostalgic and good computer, and there's nothing wrong with it. Everything that works with the breadbin, works with the model C. It's nice, it's nostalgic, it's perfect and it's the go-to machine for me even to this very day, when I want to see something on the real machine (I don't use emulators much these days).

It's clearly the winner.

HOWEVER!

The breadbin model OOZES the 'spirit' of the early eighties so powerfully, it has such nice childhood memories for me, and I always envied my programmer friend for his amazing skills and intimate understanding of the computer, and amidst that admiration process, I sub-consciously also admired the breabox C64, and imagined how much fun it must be to use it to program all that stuff.

He was a very neat individual, so everything was arranged in a very pleasing manner, with the C64 in a perfectly aesthetically pleasing setting in the middle of it all (or a little to the side, actually).

I don't have a breadbin model at the moment, and from time to time, I find myself yearning for it - it's just so sweet, it's so lovely, it's so 'original' and more 'real', because it's the actual C64 that people used and talked about for years, before the model C, a mere production line copy, finally appeared. The model C can never take the place of the old beauty that shines such thick atmosphere (the model C shines too, but it's a thinner energy).

(I don't know if anyone understands what I mean by all this, but it's so esoteric that there is no vocabulary for it, making it impossible to explain)

I definitely consider the breadbox more 'C64' than the model C, which almost seems like a step towards emulation, mimicking the original so perfectly in so many ways, and yet having very different-looking motherboard and case.

I am reminded of a classic 911 Porsche and the late 1980s version of it that looked -nothing- like the classic one. It was sleeker, more modern, had lights that opened up from the surface, like K.I.T.T., etc. And the engine was probably just as powerful. But somehow, it wasn't quite 'it' anymore, although it was still a Porsche.

The change in the C64 is not as drastic, and not as visually unpleasing, but there's some kind of similarity that makes me think of that.

In any case, the breadbin model is the real deal, the most wonderful, soulful, original, radiating beauty that has stood the test of time in all ways possible.

It is clearly the winner.

So, as the reader can see, the only way I can choose is to choose both. The C64C may be technically more robust and compact, but the original has 'that something' about it, that invites you a little bit more strongly.

C64C has lots of wonderful good points, that really speak to me, and make me feel like I am home when I use it, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

But the breadbin is also full of wonderful good points, that really make me want to own one, and be amazed as to how 2010s stuff can work so nicely on a 1982 system.

I can't choose just one - I prefer both. I know it sounds like a cop-out, but it's really an impossible choice.

Now, a sidenote; as some people have mentioned, the case with the C64C is a bit less straightforward as some other people previously stated.

I have seen -= PLENTY =- of C64Cs with 6581 SID chip originally (not modified). I've also seen plenty of C128s with 6581 SID chip in them originally.

I've also seen many C64Cs with 8580 SID chip, and like someone here mentioned, a good rule of thumb is indeed to look at the keyboard.

The font is different in the 8580 versions, and the graphical symbols are printed on TOP of the key, instead of the lower SIDE of the key in the 8580 models.

This rule has never failed me, but then, I haven't really seen THAT many C64Cs.

To me, comparing C64 'breadbin' and C64 'model C' is like comparing the time-traveling DeLorean from Back to the Future and K.I.T.T. from Knight Rider.

Which car would you really rather own? I mean, the other one can travel in time and thus make you rich and whatnot (but you could endanger your own existence, etc..).

But the other one is the fastest car in existence, near indestructible, a friend, companion, assistant, can do so many things for you, has telekinesis ability, and the most advanced A.I. one has ever seen.

Of course with a time machine, you could go to a future where such cars are the norm, but what if the future is a dystopia, a wasteland? And what would you do with a car in the past anyway..?

Hm, this is becoming a bit sidetracked now, so I better end my post here.

The way I experience the different C64s is somewhat similar to how I experience the old "C64 vs. Atari" thing. When they both bring me so much joy and pleasure, sitting neatly and in a very friendly manner on my table, side by side, sharing the same TV, I can only see them as complementing each other, not being each other's rivals.

It's fun to check the same game for both platforms, and experiencing the differences.

(I just recently got SIO2SD for the Atari, so I am experiencing a much larger world of delight than before, ahh, that Joust-version is so good! (I used to play the Atari 2600 version before))

 

 

 

C64_C_Atari800_XL_Wii.jpg

 

Look, how friendly they are.. playing nicely right next to each other.

 

I think one of the reasons why I like having the C64C, is that I already have the 'breadbin look' covered on my other table.

The_other_Table.jpg

 

And it's a beautiful look, isn't it?

 

 

 

 

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