PacManPlus Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 C'mon guys - please don't do this. GroovyBee and Curt put more time and money in this than we can imagine. It's like if we had the means and the financial backing to make whatever add on we could for the 7800, wouldn't you want to put in any hardware you could think of, *in case* someone wants to try creating something that would support it? And then have the possibility to make it a computer with the keyboard - something Atari themselves were going to do back in the day? ...and on the flip side of that, I can see where people are getting a little nervous about the XM becoming the 'standard' and people being required to have it if they want to play their favorite game. All they are doing is saying so (and it's mostly people who have already bought or plan to buy the XM). It's no secret that GroovyBee is the best 7800 programmer we have here, and he already said that all of his games from now on will require the XM. There's even a game that he hasn't even talked about yet that I've seen - and it will blow everyone away. It looks like an SMS game. Nobody needs get to get defensive with the other... It's all good. I personally, plan on creating games that require the XM when needed (i.e. Battlezone / Frenzy) and not when it isn't (like Crazy Brix, Moon Cresta, and Meteor Shower - which only support the HSC - something I've done from the beginning). There is nothing but good going on here, and if we want more 'good' stuff to come our way, we need to be civil, please - that goes for all of us. Bob 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 We should never talk about any potential downsides. Ever. The way to do a it; and there's a way to do it looking like a troll. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRamboTX Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 I'm new to the forum, but I wanted to throw in my appreciation and admiration for the developers of this project and for what the developers do with it in the future. Thank you guys! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariBrian Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 so what is the status of the circus atari game, when will it be out? this game looks great ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allpaul Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 C'mon guys - please don't do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 The capabilities are there, what developers do is solely up to them, the XM opens up doors never there before, you could use the keyboard or not, just as you could use the high score or not. Most likely the keyboard will be more for a select niche of text intense games or games needing lots of key input. Hopefully other things like a programming console, maybe a terminal, or other uses. It's there for use and I wanted it to be xegs compatible to make it as easy to access and use, Mark and others can take advantage of the option if they want... To complain about why even bothering to include the keyboard port is like complaining that the joystick ports can support paddles, or why bother including a 2nd joystick port. Why are people complaining about getting more, I really don't get it 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Kai Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I think too much is being inferred in what I wrote, that I didn't actually say. My initial vibe was that this totally changes the direction of game development on the XM and that all of a sudden, just having the XM wasn't going to be enough, that we are going to have to buy another peripheral (for a peripheral) to enjoy the games. If that's not the case then I apologize for my misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoyx Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 You know who else is concerned about adding support for the XEGS keyboard to the XM? Hitler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorfcadet Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I'm stoked for anything it can do. Gimmee old school pc text adventures or use the port to interface with a nes power glove; I don't care. Just thanks for making the thing in the first place. oh oh.. a program that does your taxes... since that is what my parents wanted me to do with my Atari back in the day... I was 8 and they saw some stupid news report about what these new fangled computers could do. In all seriousness, thanks again guys. I am really excited by all of this and thanks for letting us follow your progress and see it all happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theredlineboss Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I too look forward to any new functionality this will give to the 7800. I most likely won't seek out a keyboard (at least at first), but more options are a good thing. Also, was just noticing it's been about 1 year since I placed my pre-order (11/20). While it has taken longer than anticipated, I realize that some things are worth waiting for. -Rob 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allpaul Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 You know who else is concerned about adding support for the XEGS keyboard to the XM? Hitler. Lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 No keyboard means no chance for BASIC, DOS, Word Processors, etc. For this reason alone I am glad they incorporated it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 How does the XEGS keyboard connect? SIO or the Joystick port. Just wondering. Someone mentioned the keyboard controllers. I always thought those were underutilzed. Of course the video touch pad was the same thing in a different package, games like Raiders would have been much better with one joystick and one Keybd/VTP. We had a thread about the ultimate controller a year or so back, I still think a standardized upgraded controller would be nice to go with the XM. Sort of an XM controller... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 How does the XEGS keyboard connect? SIO or the Joystick port. Neither! Its via the 15 way XEGS connector. You'll probably have to file the bumps off the XEGS keyboard connector because its just a standard 15 way D connector on the XM. We had a thread about the ultimate controller a year or so back, I still think a standardized upgraded controller would be nice to go with the XM. Sort of an XM controller... As soon as I get some hardware tinker time I'll be working on my PSX to 7800 interface again. You can see a proto of it (Albert has the other one in a much better case) on the eJagFest XEGS keyboard picture a few posts back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Propane13 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 It's no secret that GroovyBee is the best 7800 programmer we have here I just want to throw in my 2 cents here. I think that you both are talented, but in different ways. GroovyBee has always been interested in pushing the envelope-- he got a C compiler working on the 7800, made a graphics engine, and is very interested in making the 7800 an easy-to-develop platform. He is very interested in getting games out there with more than the standard 25-color-limit. And, he has lots of projects that involve hardware that are very interesting. My respect for Bob comes from another angle-- all games from what I can tell are written in pure assembly, and his ports are spot-on. When he runs out of RAM, he finds more. This guy is a bit-packing genius, who can take the constraints of "what was", and really, really push them. Is one programmer the best? Well, no. Both have their strengths. And, let's not forget Schmutzpuppe and kenfused-- their contributions are noted. And, there may be others I have missed. Any programmer of the 7800 deserves a stocking full of happiness this Christmas, in my opinion. They're keeping the hobby alive. I think I've figured out what the apprehension is. With the XM release and a potential release of a C-code development system, this is doing a really good thing for the 7800-- opening it uo for more development. I'm getting a feeling that this is very similar to the batari basic of the 7800 world. Some 2600 developers have a love/hate relationship with that tool; it had its benefits in bringing in new fresh blood that was too afraid to try programming on such an old, complicated system. Some of them went on and programmed some good games. But, it also opened up a crap-ton of "I released this overnight; buy, buy, buy" type games. In the end, for a guy like me, it all comes down to gameplay. If the game sucks, I try not to buy it, regardless of how flashy it is. Granted, people can program whatever they want-- it's not a lucrative hobby; it's just a hobby. Being honest, I am really excited about anything that comes out for the 7800-- GroovyBee's graphics from what I've seen are awesome. Wiring in new support for new hardware is also cool-- the demos are really interesting. Bob's bit-packing arcade ports are also awesome. I think that both approaches can live in harmony. But, both sides need to give a little, otherwise this could get divisive. The XM's potential benefits as a programming platform are vast, but it does have two issues that I have to learn to get over. The first issue is that if I show off my 7800 collection to my programmer friends, and they get really excited about Midnight Mutants pushing the envelope, I can then I say "oh yeah? Check this out!" and then plug in my XM and an XM game. It will make them go "no way!", but then I'll also have some explaining to do. I'm sure my programmer friends will will think it's some sort of overclocker or cheating device that doesn't really match what could be put on a 7800 cart-- they may not understand that it expands what could simply have been put on a cartridge. But, at the end of the day, it's not a big deal, but it is a realistic issue, even if it's small. My other issue is that I also really like having the option for XM games without an XM, just so I can have a standalone cart to brag about. Even if it became more expensive to do so-- that option seems like it won't be available anymore. I'll have to learn to deal with that as well, but that is another con that I see. Maybe it's just personal preference, but for some reason, I picture the XM as a way to save money on extra hardware that you "could have in a cart", but some part of me may want to spend the extra money to have a fully-loaded cart. I also was worried about XM becoming "standard", because there was a comment made awhile back that was very glad that there would be no more TIA sound. We also need to recognize that there may be non-XM games coming out too that could be just as exciting. They may not be as graphically intensive, but they could be fun, and playable. It's up to the programmer to decide what to use, but at the end of the day, XM and non-XM can create fun games, all the same. Now, I can't just talk about that side again saying how exciting the XM really can be. Pushing the envelope of what could have been is really cool-- we can put character maps completely in RAM so that we can have awesome "morphing graphics". We can have very large worlds defined. We can have amazing arcade-like sound. We could have a keyboard-based came, or a series of them. Such things are wonderful for attracting new developers, and this system has like 5 programmers on it-- it could use some more. The 2600 had a boom of programming when batari basic came out, and as I said, I feel that this is a similar push. Bob is right-- a lot of time and money has been spent on this project. People should try to be respectful. Even if you won't purchase the XM, you've got to admit that it's still a cool project-- and, anything to bring in fresh blood to a dead system can't be bad. If we get even just one new programmer, the impact to the community will be substantial. I really like the look and feel of the project, and can see how much detail and though was put into it-- it's a stellar project. For me personally, I'm not yet on the XM pre-order list, but I can explain why-- I'm a gameplay-oriented guy. All it takes for me to make a purchase is for someone to say "this game is a lot of fun", and then I'll jump on that wagon. Yes, I know-- I may not be the most supportive of guys by waiting for a release, but I am still planning to purchase once I see something in the mix that I really want. The demos are cool, but I wish at least just one of the games was a little less secretive. I know that the main reason for this is the "wow factor" on release day, but I've always found that community support makes for better gameplay; I learned that with some of my 2600 projects. And, that's the one thing that's missing for me that would make me buy the XM right out. For now, it sounds like I have to wait until release day, and then see what people say about the games. That's not an issue, but I am hoping that with everything invested, these will be the best playable games possible. If even just one of them is remotely fun to play, I have my money standing by. -John 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espire8 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 The demos are cool, but I wish at least just one of the games was a little less secretive. I know that the main reason for this is the "wow factor" on release day, but I've always found that community support makes for better gameplay; I learned that with some of my 2600 projects. And, that's the one thing that's missing for me that would make me buy the XM right out. For now, it sounds like I have to wait until release day, and then see what people say about the games. That's not an issue, but I am hoping that with everything invested, these will be the best playable games possible. If even just one of them is remotely fun to play, I have my money standing by. Quite frankly, even I don't know how many XM games GroovyBee got going at once. But I can say that you've got nothing to worry about if at least one were remotely fun. There's at least two XM games I know will be a blast to play. I can assure you because two of the games, apart from providing the graphics, I've been able to play test for Mark and you definitely won't be disappointed! The secrecy is to make for a surprise similar to how holiday game carts were released in the past. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 It was a blast watching people play the XM mandatory games at both Replay and eJagFest. One woman at Replay easily had 20 attempts at getting through the first level on Apple Snaffle, then she handed the stick over to her partner and told him to have a go too. At least 3 people at eJagFest had already pre-ordered their XM and wanted to play the line up of games and see what the XM could do. I know three people doesn't sound like many but given that its a niche product with pre-orders from around the globe I think its pretty damn good. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lendorien Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) Well said Propane. From my point of view, I'd like to see any game that doesn't use the RAM features of the XM, but does use the sound chips to be able to use the TIA if a person doesn't have the XM. That would at least assuage some of the purists out there, but it would also allow those homebrew games to still be accessible to the widest possible audience. I know I will be buying a bunch of XM homebrew in the next year, but not all of the people who have 7800's are dedicated enough to buy an XM. And of course, there will be the people who find the games on Ebay. Dual boot games makes it more likely people outside the community will discover the amazing homebrews out there. Ebay brings a lot of people to this community. It brought me. Speaking of which, was there any resolution on the XM logo? http://www.atariage....%20logo__st__75 Edited November 28, 2011 by Lendorien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 As far as I'm concerned, having XM only games without backwards compatibility to a bare console is a non-issue. There really is no need for "Purists" mentality here. if one wants to play the XM game, one should buy the XM. We upgraded our RAM in our PC's in the 90's to play some games that were otherwise not possible to play, or at least very neutered versions of them, like the original version of Wing Commander. Now, does anyone have a spare XEGS to sell? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercylon Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I'm not sure why having games that rely on the XM is such a heated topic in the first place. Maybe I would understand it better if this was to be 200 runs and that is it, but didn't Curt say at some point that anyone who wants one can get one even after the original run is done. If you are a purist, don't buy the XM then. I'm sure there will still be some games made that don't need the XM. I'd buy one, but I will have to wait. I need to watch it and have some other financial obligations to take care of first. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8th lutz Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) I don't understand the big deal of XM games that uses ram features. Atari 7800 games had extra ram in cartridges way before the XM was even being talked about and it should a non issue as a feature for the XM. I know that back in the day, there was no 128k of ram in a 7800 cartridge, but there always been plans to add ram or sounds in 7800 cartridges like Rescue of Fractalus. 7800 XM is a cheaper way for having extra ram instead of adding extra ram in cartridge in terms of looking at from a long term prospective. When a game like Starcastle was brought up in the past as a title that people wanted homebrew authors to do, the biggest issue from it happening was ram. Without the extra ram feature the XM has, Battlezone wouldn't be close to the arcade version. A stock 7800 version of Battlezone would have similar differences as the Atari 2600 version of Battlezone. Edited November 29, 2011 by 8th lutz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lendorien Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) I don't understand the big deal of XM games that uses ram features. Atari 7800 games had extra ram in cartridges way before the XM was even being talked about and it should a non issue as a feature for the XM. I know that back in the day, there was no 128k of ram in a 7800 cartridge, but there always been plans to add ram or sounds in 7800 cartridges like Rescue of Fractalus. 7800 XM is a cheaper way for having extra ram instead of adding extra ram in cartridge in terms of looking at from a long term prospective. Oh, I don't have a problem with games using the extra Ram. I'm just saying that for games that don't use the extra ram, but do use the pokey or Yamaha chips, it'd be nice if they would be able to play in a regular 7800 as well. It's sort of like the expansion Pak on the N64. Most games that used it ran without it, just with the downside of lower resolution graphics. In the case of the SM music games, they'd use the Tia and sound crappy without the XM, but would still work. As I said, while the XM will be available to anyone who wants to buy it, it'd be nice if Non-RAM games would be dual boot for those who find the games on E-bay or frankly, have to choose between buying a homebrew game or the XM (and no game to play on it.) You'd broaden your possible audience that way to include people who passed on the XM. As for games using the RAM... well, you'd just have to get an XM. Since GroovyBee is releasing five or so games utilizing this feature, and with a possible dev system in the works, well I'm sure people will be writing for the XM for some time to come. I don't have a problem with that either. Edited November 29, 2011 by Lendorien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogstar_robot Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I'm just saying that for games that don't use the extra ram, but do use the pokey or Yamaha chips, it'd be nice if they would be able to play in a regular 7800 as well. It's sort of like the expansion Pak on the N64. Most games that used it ran without it, just with the downside of lower resolution graphics. In the case of the SM music games, they'd use the Tia and sound crappy without the XM, but would still work. A more likely outcome is no sound at all if the TIA sound wasn't used for anything. I generally agree with the concept of gracefully degrading but developer man-hours for the 7800 are very much a limited quantity right now. Groovy has already stated that his future productions will be XM only and that he intends to make thorough use of it's features. So his stuff won't degrade to no sound, it will simply require the XM. Since the kind of games he wants to produce need the XM then so be it. TIA sound on the 7800, especially TIA sound that it at least tolerable, requires significant effort that would have to be developed along with the POKEY or Yamaha sound in use. Even a dev doing a POKEY production may not find that a good use of time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Darrin9999 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I found my XEGS Keyboard, so I`m covered for when and if they use it.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lendorien Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 So, when do we get to see that status update? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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