XM Status Page...

[malducci]

If anyone thinks they can do cheaper, be my guest.

 

A challenge you know no one going to take. Nice deflection.

 

Certainly it could be done cheaper with FPGA. But could it be done cheaper with off-the-shelf chips and 1985 tech? Since that's the limiter here.

 

Ok. So help me follow the line of reasoning here. What does 1985 'tech' have to do with what is being developed now, in regards to cutting cost by consolidating ICs? I can understand the external shell and the goal as to get the best quality/appearance (understanding it doesn't necessarily mean I agree). But how does any of that have any relevance as to being 'the limiter'? Isn't functionality the goal and not how many ICs/standalone parts you have on a board?

 

 

No one appreciates the value of a U.S. made product today. The price of the XM is spot on. It's almost too inexpensive if you ask me. Anyone who complains about the price doesn't deserve one. End of story. Now back to the main topic. . TWO WEEKS left and it's ready! Woot!

 

How do you get to your conclusion, from your premise? Shouldn't it be as simple as whoever pays for the product, deserves the product? This entitlement for 'appreciation' sounds like elitist collector mentality or some privileged club thing. Also, what validation do you have that suggests that it's 'almost too inexpensive'? Is there a reason you feel that you should pay more?

 

Are you guys really being serious with such responses? Or are you just chiming in to make snide and/or bandwagon generic-support-the-cause hollow affirmations? And I'm being accused as coming off as rude and insincere. I normally try to avoid responding to such posts, because they don't add anything to a discussion. But I keep running into this 'fight the bean, fight the burrito' mentality on these forums (not that it doesn't happen else where, but it seems to happen much more often here. Forum members White Knighting 'holier than holy members and whatnot). It gets annoying/old real fast.

 

Yes that's specifically for the plastic shell. Something out of China probably would have been cheaper but I'm pretty sure Curt was trying to keep all the work in the US if at all possible which is pretty commendable.

 

Was it a US manufacture that stiffed him for some money? I heard stories about Chinese manufacturing 'level of quality'. Not just pertaining to plastics or game stuff (cases, manuals, etc), but machined metal parts too. I heard it's pretty bad for hobbyist stuff or even low production run professional products. I was into classic Chevy's and custom engine rebuilding for a good amount of time. Chinese metal machine work was just horrible. But that kind of precision is completely different than models and plastic casings. That, and my brother is into hobbyist machine work (and electric plains. He hand wire wraps his own motors). Always complaining about Chinese parts manufacturing. Anyway. I wonder what the cost difference would be, for such a low production run (he stated 200 preorders? That's fairly small from what I've for production rungs) from China.

[GroovyBee]

A challenge you know no one going to take. Nice deflection.

 

There's the crux of the matter. Why should somebody think they have the right to criticise a product that is costing 1000s of dollars to make and multiple people are spending 100s of hours to make it and games to play when the complainer isn't prepared to put their money where their mouth is?

 

How about you and Underball club together and raise lets say $15000 between you and give that to some worthy homebrew hardware causes on AA? I'm sure people like batari, jaybird3rd, candle etc. (to name a few) would love a capital injection like that to keep them motivated.

 

I've seen plenty of retro hardware projects developed on AA. I don't remember anybody complaining about the price or if its value for money. If you don't think its value for money vote with your wallet its as simple as that.

[Underball]

Why should the developers of this product expect to be above criticism or questions from those who have legitimate reservations about this product?

 

The fact that you may or may nit be putting time or money into this isnt germain to a discussion about the technical abilites of the XM. No one obligated you to do this. You're not being forced to build it.

[Ransom]

After much thought and careful consideration, I just placed an order for the XM. It's a good value, and I expect that it will become an important platform for homebrew games.

 

I'm excited and looking forward to the new games that will be coming out for it over the next several years.

[HammR25]

Yes that's specifically for the plastic shell. Something out of China probably would have been cheaper but I'm pretty sure Curt was trying to keep all the work in the US if at all possible which is pretty commendable.

 

Was it a US manufacture that stiffed him for some money? I heard stories about Chinese manufacturing 'level of quality'.

Curt sourced a US company for the cartridge guides, gave them a deposit and they disappeared.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/169672-7800-xm1-update-status/page__view__findpost__p__2159114

 

Looks like Curt had to pay $1,600 for a tooling charge for the nameplates:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/171861-7800mx1-plastic-tooling-update/page__view__findpost__p__2128445

[DracIsBack]

Why should the developers of this product expect to be above criticism or questions from those who have legitimate reservations about this product?

 

It's one thing to criticize or ask questions. You just won't friggen let it go. You've been a killjoy about this as long as I can remember and attacking at every turn. This is beyond criticism and more like a rude "I need to be right" vendetta.

 

I'm convinced you won't be happy until the people working on it cancel the project and walk away from the 7800 scene altogether.

[Underball]

You've called me names and attacked every single post I've made for 3 pages now Drac. I haven't done anything of that sort at all.

 

All I'm asking is that open frank discussion be allowed, without all the personal attacks and gnashing of teeth.

 

Clearly from the reactions and nasty tone coming from the supporters of this project, criticism and reservations about this AREN'T allowed here. Every question is considered rude. Anyone who isn't completely supportive is labelled a troll.

 

It's a joke at this point. Why not just close the thread to everyone but jubilant supporters?

Edited January 31, 2011 by Underball

[lapetino]

Come on. This bickering is turning this thread into an annoyance, when many of us are really just interested in hearing more about the project (especially those like myself, who pre-ordered). If you need to take your personality dispute (because really, that's what it has become now) offline, please do so. That way we can get back to productive, interesting dialogue (positive and negative) about the XM. Thank you.

[DracIsBack]

Come on. This bickering is turning this thread into an annoyance, when many of us are really just interested in hearing more about the project (especially those like myself, who pre-ordered). If you need to take your personality dispute (because really, that's what it has become now) offline, please do so. That way we can get back to productive, interesting dialogue (positive and negative) about the XM. Thank you.

 

There comes a point where one needs to use the "Ignore user" feature, which is what I've done.

[Tubular Gearhead]

Isn't functionality the goal...

 

No. This is only one small piece of the project. Please see all the prior topics (there are many) on the 7800 XM to understand the others. I apologize for not already pasting links to all the prior backgound discussions that have happened as this project has taken shape, but what I was trying to explain is that....

 

You know, second thought, I am not going to go into it again.

 

Please, everyone either:

1) Read about this project, get into 7800 history, and see why things are being done the way they are and buy the thing.

2) Don't spend the time to follow what is going on and just accept the answers as they are given and buy the thing.

3) Don't support the project and don't buy the thing.

4) Don't be a KILLJOY, and either buy the thing or don't buy the thing.

 

Note, malducci this is not really directed entirely at you, so I hope you don't take offense. I think several of us that have really become interested and/or involved with the project, and have been following it all along are just getting worn down from the direction of the project constantly being questioned and having to explain it over and over...

[Allpaul]

I respect that this is a forum, and this is a place for discussion but some of you go way too far... Just page after page of seemingly trying to get people over to your way of looking at it!!! If that's not what the motivation is, I'm completely lost then!

 

I understand you dont like or approve of the the way the XM is being developed, the cost of it, the feature set, or any misc. gripe.. We all get that... Speak your peace, and keep it moving.

 

Geez! It's not been as much fun to come around here lately...

Edited January 31, 2011 by Allpaul

[Mirage]

Another option would be to start a new thread about "why was the XM done this way", or "what is the value of the XM compared to such and such" or whatever, assuming there isn't already another thread made that answers your questions. Instead of coming into the "XM Status Page..." thread and junking it up (especially with negativity). There is a time and a place, and there is a right and a wrong way to go about questioning. In any case, I have followed Drac's lead and put a couple people on ignore, so the problem is solved for me as well.

[Lendorien]

Back on topic.

 

Projected release date is tomorrow. I wonder how we're coming along. I can't wait... even though there's no games that use the advanced features yet. I'll have to buy Beef Drop VE. What I really want is Super Circus Atariage!

[GroovyBee]

even though there's no games that use the advanced features yet.

 

POKEY, RAM and mappers are being used in my games at the moment.

[Austin]

I have purposely left my 7800 in it's box for the last few months so I will be pumped to give it lots of love when the XM module arrives.

 

Man, that sounded soooo wrong.

[Madaracs]

Back on topic.

 

Projected release date is tomorrow. I wonder how we're coming along. I can't wait... even though there's no games that use the advanced features yet. I'll have to buy Beef Drop VE. What I really want is Super Circus Atariage!

 

Not a peep. Must've missed the date. Anyone heard anything?

[Jinks]

Back on topic.

 

Projected release date is tomorrow. I wonder how we're coming along. I can't wait... even though there's no games that use the advanced features yet. I'll have to buy Beef Drop VE. What I really want is Super Circus Atariage!

 

Not a peep. Must've missed the date. Anyone heard anything?

Curt's been quiet..outlook not so good....

[AtariNerd]

Curt tends to be an optimist..maybe he should have pulled a Scotty, instead. You know, really hammered out the complexities, the struggles, overestimated the time, so that when he does pull off the feat, he appears to be a miracle-worker.

[Lendorien]

I'm sure everything will be fine. A lot of thing have to be coordinated for this thing, boxes, metal bits, pcbs, etc. All takes time. I'm sure we'll hear shortly.

[DracIsBack]

He's probably not replying because he's probably busting his butt assembling the units so he can ship them out. When I get married, I found assembling the invitation package took forever to do ... imagine assembling a a few hundred hardware units like this by yourself ...

[HammR25]

He's probably not replying because he's probably busting his butt assembling the units so he can ship them out. When I get married, I found assembling the invitation package took forever to do ... imagine assembling a a few hundred hardware units like this by yourself ...

I like this take on the situation.

[AtariNerd]

He's probably not replying because he's probably busting his butt assembling the units so he can ship them out. When I get married, I found assembling the invitation package took forever to do ... imagine assembling a a few hundred hardware units like this by yourself ...

I like this take on the situation.

 

Yes this too. When you're married to the Atari cause, well, the old girl is such a demanding mistress.

[spiffyone]

If anyone thinks they can do cheaper, be my guest.

 

A challenge you know no one going to take. Nice deflection.

 

Certainly it could be done cheaper with FPGA. But could it be done cheaper with off-the-shelf chips and 1985 tech? Since that's the limiter here.

 

Ok. So help me follow the line of reasoning here. What does 1985 'tech' have to do with what is being developed now, in regards to cutting cost by consolidating ICs? I can understand the external shell and the goal as to get the best quality/appearance (understanding it doesn't necessarily mean I agree). But how does any of that have any relevance as to being 'the limiter'? Isn't functionality the goal and not how many ICs/standalone parts you have on a board?

 

I think the "spirit" of the thing is important here.

 

What they're shooting for is not just something that opens up the 7800 a bit, but does so with the true retro spirit in mind.

 

In other words, doing what could have been done back in '84/85 with tech from '84/85.

 

Functionality isn't the single overriding goal. It's functionality and keeping with the retro spirt...and that means doing things in a totally retro way.

[spiffyone]

 

So for this $100 price point, would the cost have been significantly less if the FM chip was omitted from the design (I doubt the ram amount is much of an influence on price, compared to 64k or 32k)? Or a single FPGA package used (again, assumption since I don't know). Would it be possible to get it down to $40-50 and still be a meaningful upgrade for developers? What's the total user base for the 7800? What percentage of people are willing to spend $100 for this addon to play new homebrew, than $50 range?

 

See, here I kinda disagree with you on the use of FGPA. I like the fact that they're using original components that were manufactured back then. It thus is "true" retro through and through. Or, at least mostly. I'll get to that in a moment.

 

First, though, I'll state that my feelings on the XM are not looking at it as an "add on" that extends capabilities so much as an add on that puts in one module what might've been put in each individual cartridge had Atari Corp. not been so cheap. I'll also state that even with the money I don't think they would've made an add-on for 7800. But what they would've done had they not been so cheap is allow for devs to add RAM and POKEY onto the carts as the Warner led Atari and GCC had originally intended. So that's what XM is: it is, in one product, something that could've been added to each individual cart. So what does this mean? Well, it means that we (developers and retro game consumers) won't have to pay more for cartridges that would use those things, as now we have something that puts those things into place without having to put them into each cart. And that's why the $100 isn't so much in that light. Individual devs now can add POKEY and a bit of extra RAM to their carts, but that would drive up the cost for them which would raise costs for us. And that's why I think more devs now haven't added POKEY or extra RAM into their games so far: it's too costly. Curt and the rest have developed something that takes that issue away.

 

The biggest things that XM "adds" are extra RAM and sound chips, and those could've been added into each individual cartridge so it's not really an "add on" that extends capabilities anymore than the mappers on NES cartridges.

 

HOWEVER...

 

As far as the upgrade goes, it doesn't look like it couldn't have been done BITD. But a couple of things stand out. 128k of ram really does seems a bit too high/unlikely for 80's addon (and console at that. Ram was pretty expensive back then. Consoles weren't computer systems. The whole point of a console was to play games at a much cheaper cost than a computer), but I didn't really give criticism about it because I'm sure it's something that dev'rs wanted to see - to make the system shine even if it's not exactly realistic for back in the 80's (I understand that side/mentality having done console dev myself and could see the relative benefits of small upgrades). The Pokey (sound) seems fine/appropriate. But the YM2151 definite seems out of class with this system. Hell, the 2151 out classes the Genesis FM chip (even has more channels 8 vs 6 Genesis). It was Yamaha's top chip BITD. That hardly looks like it would have been used in the 7800. The only system that comes to mind that used it in the 80's, was the very expensive Sharp X68000 computer. Actually, I doubt an FM chip would have been used at all (given Atari's history with home consoles, handhelds, and computers 8,16bit, or otherwise). But for the sake of argument, it'd probably be something closer to a YM2203 (3 FM channels, 3 square channels. And commonly used in arcades) and no pokey sound (which wouldn't be a justifiable cost relative to the FM chip).

 

...I have to agree with you here.

 

It seems to me, at least, that part of the "issue" (notice the quotes...i'm at a loss for a better term, so please don't anyone take offense) for me is that while it seems in the realm of what was technically feasible back in the early '80s, it may not fall in the realm of what was really financially/economically feasible at the time. That is, the amount of RAM may be too high for the time and so too does the inclusion of the YM2151. Perhaps the folks behind this were thinking like programmers/developers, still going for retro, mind you, but letting the need for more RAM and better sound (a "dream" scenario for them as developers, perhaps) temporarily "blind" or at least override the thinking that early '80s business execs with only so much of a budget would be willing to actually spend.

 

I don't know if a less overall expensive (and smaller) add-on simply consisting of, say, 16k of RAM and just a POKEY wouldn't have been a "better" (notice the quotation marks) option in terms of going for that true retro "feel". But that's in keeping with my feeling that XM takes the place of add on components within the cartridges themselves. Again, it's not really "fair" to think of this as an add-on so much as a module that takes the place of stuff that could've been put on each cart, so XM in that light becomes a less expensive and more economical alternative for us (both devs and gamers) now.

 

BUT...IMHO, the project could have gone for not only what the devs would have wanted back then, but what the execs would have been willing to spend. I don't think back in '83/84/85 they'd have been willing to pony up for 128k of RAM or an FM chip. It's great for us NOW as we'll have "closer to arcade" offerings and much larger games...but would it have been something they really would've done back then?

 

I'm not so sure.

 

I still have a bit of a feeling that the amount of RAM is perhaps a bit too high if one looks at what would have been feasible business-wise back then, and same goes for the FM chip.

 

128k of RAM and FM sound is great...but is it something Atari would've really done?

 

And looking at it JUST as a cheaper alternative to POKEY and extra RAM in the carts...would 16k and just POKEY have been a better and more "true" retro offering? Would that have been less expensive overall? Just, basically, 16k of RAM, POKEY, and the HSC thing in one package. That, to me, would've been more feasible business-wise back then.

[Madaracs]

 

So for this $100 price point, would the cost have been significantly less if the FM chip was omitted from the design (I doubt the ram amount is much of an influence on price, compared to 64k or 32k)? Or a single FPGA package used (again, assumption since I don't know). Would it be possible to get it down to $40-50 and still be a meaningful upgrade for developers? What's the total user base for the 7800? What percentage of people are willing to spend $100 for this addon to play new homebrew, than $50 range?

 

See, here I kinda disagree with you on the use of FGPA. I like the fact that they're using original components that were manufactured back then. It thus is "true" retro through and through. Or, at least mostly. I'll get to that in a moment.

 

First, though, I'll state that my feelings on the XM are not looking at it as an "add on" that extends capabilities so much as an add on that puts in one module what might've been put in each individual cartridge had Atari Corp. not been so cheap. I'll also state that even with the money I don't think they would've made an add-on for 7800. But what they would've done had they not been so cheap is allow for devs to add RAM and POKEY onto the carts as the Warner led Atari and GCC had originally intended. So that's what XM is: it is, in one product, something that could've been added to each individual cart. So what does this mean? Well, it means that we (developers and retro game consumers) won't have to pay more for cartridges that would use those things, as now we have something that puts those things into place without having to put them into each cart. And that's why the $100 isn't so much in that light. Individual devs now can add POKEY and a bit of extra RAM to their carts, but that would drive up the cost for them which would raise costs for us. And that's why I think more devs now haven't added POKEY or extra RAM into their games so far: it's too costly. Curt and the rest have developed something that takes that issue away.

 

The biggest things that XM "adds" are extra RAM and sound chips, and those could've been added into each individual cartridge so it's not really an "add on" that extends capabilities anymore than the mappers on NES cartridges.

 

HOWEVER...

 

As far as the upgrade goes, it doesn't look like it couldn't have been done BITD. But a couple of things stand out. 128k of ram really does seems a bit too high/unlikely for 80's addon (and console at that. Ram was pretty expensive back then. Consoles weren't computer systems. The whole point of a console was to play games at a much cheaper cost than a computer), but I didn't really give criticism about it because I'm sure it's something that dev'rs wanted to see - to make the system shine even if it's not exactly realistic for back in the 80's (I understand that side/mentality having done console dev myself and could see the relative benefits of small upgrades). The Pokey (sound) seems fine/appropriate. But the YM2151 definite seems out of class with this system. Hell, the 2151 out classes the Genesis FM chip (even has more channels 8 vs 6 Genesis). It was Yamaha's top chip BITD. That hardly looks like it would have been used in the 7800. The only system that comes to mind that used it in the 80's, was the very expensive Sharp X68000 computer. Actually, I doubt an FM chip would have been used at all (given Atari's history with home consoles, handhelds, and computers 8,16bit, or otherwise). But for the sake of argument, it'd probably be something closer to a YM2203 (3 FM channels, 3 square channels. And commonly used in arcades) and no pokey sound (which wouldn't be a justifiable cost relative to the FM chip).

 

...I have to agree with you here.

 

It seems to me, at least, that part of the "issue" (notice the quotes...i'm at a loss for a better term, so please don't anyone take offense) for me is that while it seems in the realm of what was technically feasible back in the early '80s, it may not fall in the realm of what was really financially/economically feasible at the time. That is, the amount of RAM may be too high for the time and so too does the inclusion of the YM2151. Perhaps the folks behind this were thinking like programmers/developers, still going for retro, mind you, but letting the need for more RAM and better sound (a "dream" scenario for them as developers, perhaps) temporarily "blind" or at least override the thinking that early '80s business execs with only so much of a budget would be willing to actually spend.

 

I don't know if a less overall expensive (and smaller) add-on simply consisting of, say, 16k of RAM and just a POKEY wouldn't have been a "better" (notice the quotation marks) option in terms of going for that true retro "feel". But that's in keeping with my feeling that XM takes the place of add on components within the cartridges themselves. Again, it's not really "fair" to think of this as an add-on so much as a module that takes the place of stuff that could've been put on each cart, so XM in that light becomes a less expensive and more economical alternative for us (both devs and gamers) now.

 

BUT...IMHO, the project could have gone for not only what the devs would have wanted back then, but what the execs would have been willing to spend. I don't think back in '83/84/85 they'd have been willing to pony up for 128k of RAM or an FM chip. It's great for us NOW as we'll have "closer to arcade" offerings and much larger games...but would it have been something they really would've done back then?

 

I'm not so sure.

 

I still have a bit of a feeling that the amount of RAM is perhaps a bit too high if one looks at what would have been feasible business-wise back then, and same goes for the FM chip.

 

128k of RAM and FM sound is great...but is it something Atari would've really done?

 

And looking at it JUST as a cheaper alternative to POKEY and extra RAM in the carts...would 16k and just POKEY have been a better and more "true" retro offering? Would that have been less expensive overall? Just, basically, 16k of RAM, POKEY, and the HSC thing in one package. That, to me, would've been more feasible business-wise back then.

 

 

You might consider opening a new thread for your discussion as this is still an off-topic conversation. For those of us who read this thread for the updates and not for the ancillary "woulda coulda should-they-have-uh" statements and conversations, this kind of posting doesn't contribute to the cause but rather irritates many members. See above posts for more details. Not saying you can't play in the sandbox or anything... just kindly repost somewhere new and let these conversations take shape elsewhere.