Opinion of the 7800 vs 8bit

atariksi · January 25, 2011

@Tubular Gearhead, potatohead

Thanks for the vote of confidence. The 7800 was never pushed all that hard back in the day. Its a real shame that the best on the console has to come 20+ years past its prime .

Totally agree also. It has a lot of potential, and only now with all the recent developments have I warmed up to the 7800 again. More Atari love is never a bad thing.

It's true that any platform you spend a ton of time on, you will end up coming with better and newer algorithms and discoveries. However, this would also favor A8 as there's more development being done on A8 platform. For a newcomer, he would be more interested in playing than waiting for newer products.

potatohead · January 25, 2011

IN YOUR OPINION.

What if the newcomer is into the tech side of the hobby? Lots of new ground on 7800.

What if they are interested in some casual retro-gaming?

Prefer console to computer?

Enjoy niche systems?

Thinking about doing some home brew?

Yeah, exactly.

kool kitty89 · January 25, 2011

I haven't played Food Fight on both systems, but Joust and Robotron are a win for Atari 400/800. Robotron is too slow and easier on 7800. Joust looks terrible (when unpaused) on the 7800 and sloppy in collision detection. I guess that's what he was trying to get to with better playability.

What makes joust better? It looks and sounds great on the 7800 (many of the sounds are closer to the arcade -very nice use of TIA there, not surprising given it's pretty competitive with POKEY for SFX -can even do things POKEY can't- and especially since those Willaims 6809 board arcade games only ever used 1 channel sound; the graphics definitely are more like the Arcade too).

I don't want to compare with arcade--

Well that's a bit silly, the Arcade game should ALWAYS be used as a reference point for comparison. (it also explains what features were correct from the arcade and what were changed)

just comparing A8 vs. 7800 right off the bat we see: Joust on 7800 has flying eggs (no gravity), the birds look terrible motion as they are too congested compared to A8 where they still look like birds, and collisions on A8 are superior maybe because they are using a graphics mode (not redefined fonts).

WHAT???

:lol: Sounds like you've been playing the 2600 version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_Pz9gamp_A

And not the 7800 version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw9_7BoXBKw

And the 5200/A8 version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvJ5FMSAutw

Arcade (and almost identical on Genesis, SNES, Playstation, N64, and some others -the PS3 downloadable version has off sound though)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ga2Dtkg92I

Honestly I don't think the VCS sprites look much worse (pretty close to equal) compared to the A8/5200, both look more like ducks/swans/geese than the proper Vultures and Ostrich in the arcade game. (the 7800 OTOH looks much more like the arcade -the bird for player 2 is more duck/goose shaped so maybe that's where the odd design of the VCS/5200/A8 version comes from -I'd think that would have been the lowest priority though given it's the least likely to be used)

I think the fire and lava hands are also missing on the A8/5200 version.

The video quality per console varies (color drifts a bit too), and Classic Game Room has some good videos of all 3 versions (and several direct arcade conversions) to compare from real hardware. (quick clips seems to make things a little bit greenish)

No, both have difficulty settings. The graphics on the A8 are clear whereas on A7800 its harder to distinguish various enemy robots and humans. The sounds are also better on A8 and objects are bigger on A8 which makes them easier to distinguish. The robots when they attack are faster in motion on A8. The whole play is slower and screen looks like a mess once you get used to playing on A8.

The objects are bulkier and uglier in the A8 version because they had to hack the game down a lot more... play the arcade game and see which one did it more justice as a home conversion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x7naspEhD8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqUZMYh2lkA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAOQ1HNZLOI

(can't find a gameplay only video for the 5200 or A8 version, CGR-HD's is the most amusing though, and has the most audible sound effects)

Regarding Ms. Pac-man, I have seen those portable TV type games and their not so good either. But once you get used to playing A8 version, the A7800 version seems to be off and irregular. And it's not just 3 games; those just happen to be the ones being discussed currently. Once we agree that A8 versions are superior, we can move on to others.

Not sure what's with the TV game plug-n-play comment, but how about comparing it with the real arcade game (or direct MAME emulation) for a valid comparison? (there's some arcade perfect home ports in other compilations as well)

Edited January 25, 2011 by kool kitty89

Mirage · January 25, 2011

Totally agree also. It has a lot of potential, and only now with all the recent developments have I warmed up to the 7800 again. More Atari love is never a bad thing.

It's true that any platform you spend a ton of time on, you will end up coming with better and newer algorithms and discoveries. However, this would also favor A8 as there's more development being done on A8 platform. For a newcomer, he would be more interested in playing than waiting for newer products.

I was making a statement that had nothing to do with the A8 computers. I was making a comment on the 7800 specifically and my renewed interest in it due to recent developments.

As for your comment: Interest in any platform is not zero-sum. One can have an interest, whether active or passive, in more than one system at a time. If there are new developments in 8 different systems, I may have more interest in all 8 of those systems. As a matter of fact, that is exactly the case.

kool kitty89 · January 25, 2011

I think the arcade robotron sample above (emulated) is rather off: too choppy and a bit skippy (probably from emulating while recording), so probably search around on youtube for a better arcade example or one of the arcade quality ports like:

And the sound is definitely better converted to the 7800 version in spite of the limitations. Sound effects are generally closer and the later stage intro/warp sound is approximated on the 7800 with periodic noise while the A8/5200 uses the same sound as the early stages. (before the brain guys appear)

Again, it's not about what version is better (as there are much better versions than either the 7800 or A8 for many later consoles), but it's about whether they're worth playing for nostalgia or the unique experiences.

potatohead · January 25, 2011

How is the A8 Robotron drawn?

atariksi · January 25, 2011

I haven't played Food Fight on both systems, but Joust and Robotron are a win for Atari 400/800. Robotron is too slow and easier on 7800. Joust looks terrible (when unpaused) on the 7800 and sloppy in collision detection. I guess that's what he was trying to get to with better playability.

What makes joust better? It looks and sounds great on the 7800 (many of the sounds are closer to the arcade -very nice use of TIA there, not surprising given it's pretty competitive with POKEY for SFX -can even do things POKEY can't- and especially since those Willaims 6809 board arcade games only ever used 1 channel sound; the graphics definitely are more like the Arcade too).

I don't want to compare with arcade--

Well that's a bit silly, the Arcade game should ALWAYS be used as a reference point for comparison. (it also explains what features were correct from the arcade and what were changed)

That's your mental speculation and then you go on with your post ASSUMING I'm going to accept that claim. Arcade is different hardware from the 8-bit machines and there are compromises made like screen orientation, colors, etc. It's better for the game developer to target the strong points of the target machine then try to mimic the arcade at the cost of gameplay. See the Donkey Kong thread in this forum as this was discussed in detail there and why the 8-bit version of ATari 400 is BETTER than the aracade. For you this can never happen because you already ASSUME the arcade version is perfect. Some things on the arcade machines aren't done as well due to their machines and who they are targetting like no pause feature. Joust is another example where A8 version looks better for the reasons I stated which you didn't even address thanks to your false assumption. Get your facts straight before you reply. The rest of your biased speculative analysis won't be answered as your basis is false.

potatohead · January 25, 2011

#1 So, you are a retro gamer too?

#2 Yeah. Was out of the scene for a while, but I'm getting into it now.

#1 What systems do you have?

#2 CoCo 3, Coleco, Atari 800XL, NES, C64

#1 Cool! I have some of the same ones!

#2 Sweet! Hey, since I've got the 7800, should I get a XL too? More games, but I'm not sure keeping the 7800 makes any sense. I've got the C64 already.

#1 Never toss your gear. Get the XL, keep the 7800. It's got serious potential. Some of the new guys have been cranking it up, and look at that home brew expansion! Cool as hell.

#2 Are the games different?

#1 Well, most of them. One or two, just aren't my thing, but that's what retro is all about. When we were kids, we had to choose. Now it's just about having fun on the different systems, and collecting too.

#2 Yeah, I think I'll keep the 7800. XL, or XE?

#1 Deffo XL for me. Some others here like the XE machines. Just don't set it next to your 7800 or C64, LOL!!

#2 Seriously? Who gives a shit?

#1 Between you and me (whispers)... sure! You are right about that, but you gotta watch it around these parts.

#2 Watch it? You mean there is some clown that actually gives a shit? Takes it serious and personal and all of that?

#1 Yeah, some of those Atari users are just rabid fan-bois. I mean, they won't take any shit, to the point where most people just say, "sure! Whatever you say man."

#2 Jesus! Are you kidding me? Who are they trying to prove it to? Themselves? LOL!!

#1 You will see. Don't say I didn't warn you. It's easier if you just hold the line you know. Just say it's the shit, then PM the really great discussions, otherwise certain people might hear, and when they do it all turns foul, usually resulting in getting called stupid, and other names.

#2 Fuck 'em. I like what I like, and who is to judge?

#1 I hear you man. Trust me, I'm there. Most of us are.

#2 Who is this clown?

#1 No need to mention names. You will find out soon enough. Don't say you were not warned.

#2 Is there any wonder these days?

#1 Pathetic.

#3 #1, you envious snake! You should be banned for your rabid speculations! Get your facts straight before you go talking to others about these things! Didn't anybody tell you how it is? Some of us went to school!

#2 What the fuck?

#1 Later dude. Gonna go play some C64. Have fun though. Let's catch up later.

#3 You can't just make biased claims here. This is really serious stuff, and did I mention that I went to school? There is only one machine on that list worth your time, and it's the Atari 8 bit machine.

#2 But I like NES and 7800 sometimes. Coleco looks good too. Have you seen the Donkey Kong Port, and some of the latest home brews? Excellent, and man that 7800 might have potential yet! Pretty exciting times.

#3 Speculations and bias. Everybody knows it's about the color. Any system that has less than 128 colors, well 256 in the GTIA mode, just can't compete.

#2 Well, 7800 Robotron is sweet. Actually, several of the games are.

#3 The only game I use the system for is [game].

#2 Is that because you have no room, or...?

#3 Not worth it. The Atari 8bit games are the best! Fact.

#2 Well, from what I've seen, there is some good and bad all around. Are you sure A8 Jungle Hunt is the best, for example? Jesus, is that one ugly or what?

#3 It's all about the game play, and digital sticks!

#2 But just a bit ago, you said it was about the graphics? Are you ok?

#3 Listen, there are rules to this stuff! I went to school, and I know a lot more than you do, so don't even bother replying, unless you want to agree!

#2 We don't have to agree.

#3 Sure, as long as you realize I'm right about it, we are cool. I've been doing this a long time, and I've got tons of data!

#2 You keep data on this stuff? Man, I just want to play the games. Well, that and a coupla the other guys are showing me how to program. Maybe I can make a game on these old things.

#3 If you are going to write a game, you need to know the only system worth writing for is the Atari 8 bits. 256 colors! Fast joystick ports! The fastest CPU! The BEST graphics. The rest is just bias and speculation.

#2 Speculation? Bias? Who the fuck are you to lord it over my hobby?

#3 No need to have a emotional outburst here. I know the facts are hard, man up and just admit the Atari 8 bit is the BEST computer, particularly compared to the slow CPU on the C64!

#2 Joystick ports? Colors? Slow CPU? But it's got color cells and sprites, and besides all I really was asking is whether or not I should keep the 7800.

#3 Like I said, I only play one game on it. All my other gaming is all Atari 8 bit, all the time, with the DIGITAL JOYSTICKS. There is nothing BETTER.

#2 okie dokie

#2 PM's #1 No SHIT! Good grief, that #3 is simply MAD!! Never seen anything like it. How come he's still here...?

#1 Beats the shit out of me. Let me introduce you to a few friends. We've been wondering about this for quite some time. It's really entertaining, as long as you just stay out of it. Too much, and it all starts to suck...

Edited January 25, 2011 by potatohead

Mirage · January 25, 2011

#2 PM's #1 No SHIT! Good grief, that #3 is simply MAD!! Never seen anything like it. How come he's still here...?

Potato sums it up perfectly. And asks a very valid question. Why is mad #3 continually allowed to ruin potentially perfectly good conversations just because he likes to argue for the sake of arguing?

carmel_andrews · January 25, 2011

like potato head said, the 7800 is indeed an interesting machine, shame that atari didn't have the foresight to stick pokey in as standard (instead of making it an 'optional extra')

And you can't really compare the 7800 with the A8, A8 used pretty much 70's tech, the 7800 used 80's tech (simple's as the Ad go), I like to think of the 7800 as an improved A8 (since it's graphics capabilities are borrowed from the A8)

If Atari were even serious about competing with nintendo (with the 7800) they could have improved the machine even more, like removing the memory constraints on the graphics chip (and probably adding more memory), and as I said adding pokey as standard (or another decent sound chip, like the one they used in the IIgs, but since that was made by ex commodore engineers, perhaps another option) and probably making some sort of A8 computer upgrade (like an early xegs you could say), therefore extending the amount of available software for the 7800

Tin_Lunchbox · January 25, 2011

I thought comparing those images of Gauntlet in part 1 of this thread really demonstrated the superiority of the 7800's graphics, but is that 7800 image genuine and from actual gameplay? I recall for the 7800 the Gauntlet-type games Dark Chambers (graphics okay but nowhere near that purported screenshot) and Eagle's Nest (graphics very good and approaching that purported screenshot).

I checked out the video above of 2600 version of Gauntlet [oops I mean Joust]. The authors did a great job on the gameplay, but the sounds are incredibly grating. There's little or no flicker but if only they could have jazzed up the graphics a tiny bit more.

This new expansion attachment in development for the 7800 should allow some interesting things. I'm tempted to wish the makers would just develop for the 8bits instead, but retro-developing is not a zero sum game.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Tin_Lunchbox

Divya16 · January 25, 2011

I think the arcade robotron sample above (emulated) is rather off: too choppy and a bit skippy (probably from emulating while recording), so probably search around on youtube for a better arcade example or one of the arcade quality ports like:

Don't search around. Better to play the games on all three and get good at it so you don't mess up like you did. You really need to learn how to do research and address the points for example:

And the sound is definitely better converted to the 7800 version in spite of the limitations. Sound effects are generally closer and the later stage intro/warp sound is approximated on the 7800 with periodic noise while the A8/5200 uses the same sound as the early stages. (before the brain guys appear)

You only see in comparison to arcade but the A8 sounds are superior if you treat all three or all two from the concept phase of the game and NOT blindly think arcade version "is all perfect."

Again, it's not about what version is better (as there are much better versions than either the 7800 or A8 for many later consoles), but it's about whether they're worth playing for nostalgia or the unique experiences.

No, that's another of your opinions. You are derailing the thread. Just stick to 7800 vs. 8bit and state "it's my opinion..." since you haven't stated any facts yet which would be better.

sack-c0s · January 25, 2011

Righty... I'm bored of this, so I'm going to tackle something a little more relaxed and acheivable, like bringing peace to the middle east.

Anyone else up for that?

+Stephen · January 25, 2011

The pattern continues. Mad #3 comes in and ruins a thread. He gets smacked. Then he goes and puts on a dress, and more people get called names. Wonder how much longer we have to tolerate this?

+Stephen · January 25, 2011

Righty... I'm bored of this, so I'm going to tackle something a little more relaxed and acheivable, like bringing peace to the middle east.

Anyone else up for that?

A noble cause. It would be easier to have the one offending asshole (who poses as two assholes) removed from this place. Then the rest of the mature folks who don't feel violated by those with differing OPINIONS could resume having decent discussions about 30 year old abandoned hardware.

sack-c0s · January 25, 2011

any-hooo.....

Let's just suppose that one person just likes 6502-derived machines with interesting hardware, has no real platform ties (despite growing up with a C64) and likes a platform jump every now and again to avoid getting bored of coding. Let's also assume that although he likes to compile under windows and test on emulators there's something much more satisfying about seeing the code running on real hardware. Let's also assume he doesn't give a flying toss about anyones opinion about if he should or shouldn't look at the 7800 because he's interested in getting around to everything eventually.

1) What would be the best emulator for initially testing on in terms of accuracy or any debugging features?

2) What is he going to need to get code up and running on real hardware (apart from the 7800, obviously)?

Divya16 · January 25, 2011

#2 PM's #1 No SHIT! Good grief, that #3 is simply MAD!! Never seen anything like it. How come he's still here...?

Potato sums it up perfectly. And asks a very valid question. Why is mad #3 continually allowed to ruin potentially perfectly good conversations just because he likes to argue for the sake of arguing?

All it sounds like is neither you nor him nor others that agree with you have actually played Robotron and the other two games under discussion on both systems. Anyway, I'm through with this thread. You can go on with your opinions as I see the hatred and bias coming out.

frogstar_robot · January 25, 2011

And you can't really compare the 7800 with the A8, A8 used pretty much 70's tech, the 7800 used 80's tech (simple's as the Ad go), I like to think of the 7800 as an improved A8 (since it's graphics capabilities are borrowed from the A8)

Um. No. Not really. There is some unfortunate overloading of terminology as "Display Lists" are often spoken of in connection with 7800 programming but they aren't like Antic display lists. Maria is a completely different animal compared to Antic+GTIA with different capabilities and limitations.

GroovyBee · January 25, 2011

I thought comparing those images of Gauntlet in part 1 of this thread really demonstrated the superiority of the 7800's graphics, but is that 7800 image genuine and from actual gameplay? I recall for the 7800 the Gauntlet-type games Dark Chambers (graphics okay but nowhere near that purported screenshot) and Eagle's Nest (graphics very good and approaching that purported screenshot).

As the programmer of Dungeon! the 7800 game used in the comparison I don't do mock-ups :roll: .

This new expansion attachment in development for the 7800 should allow some interesting things. I'm tempted to wish the makers would just develop for the 8bits instead, but retro-developing is not a zero sum game.

There are plenty of people developing for the A8 be that new apps, games or hardware. The number of people developing for the 7800 is considerably smaller.

potatohead · January 25, 2011

Comparing the 7800 and the 8 bit computer above shows me flicker and fewer on screen colors than I see on the 7800 Joust. Some nice trade-offs there, and it does say "Atari" on it. Good grief.

As for having not played ROBOTRON, I'll leave my prior posts on the matter to stand.

So, let's talk about hate for a moment shall we? If there was hate going on, I think it would have been good to weave a dress into the story above, and perhaps use #2 for the identifier, just so personas and analogies would match in a more colorful and less desirable way. Yeah, get the hint. Please.

There is a clear difference between hate and disregard or disapproval.

I don't hold people, who are as self-serving as we see here in high regard. That's not hate, just having some healthy measure of self-respect. I don't approve of that behavior as well, because it drives people away from the hobby, and last I looked there were not a ton of people willing and able to entertain these old machines. Being excellent to one another has it's merits, wouldn't you agree caughtinadressksi?

Hate is a blind, primal emotion, and it's the number one emotion that people assign to speech that checks their behavior, because it has a strong stigma attached to it, and because they want to distract from shitty behavior rather than answer to it.

Yes, that's you turnsgoldtoshitksi.

As far as bias goes, hell yes I'm biased! Everybody is. Taking some elitist stand on bias only makes you look the fool thinksheisbetterthanhereallyisksi.

Where I come from, treating people like shit earns you some attention. The unpleasant kind, the kind that you just got. Sue me. I don't do that shit, and from what I can tell, almost nobody else does, so what's your problem?

Fair question.

+Stephen · January 25, 2011

any-hooo.....

Let's just suppose that one person just likes 6502-derived machines with interesting hardware, has no real platform ties (despite growing up with a C64) and likes a platform jump every now and again to avoid getting bored of coding. Let's also assume that although he likes to compile under windows and test on emulators there's something much more satisfying about seeing the code running on real hardware. Let's also assume he doesn't give a flying toss about anyones opinion about if he should or shouldn't look at the 7800 because he's interested in getting around to everything eventually.

1) What would be the best emulator for initially testing on in terms of accuracy or any debugging features?

2) What is he going to need to get code up and running on real hardware (apart from the 7800, obviously)?

I can't comment on the 7800 emulators, Groovy should be able to offer some suggestions there.

As far as getting the code running on the real thing, there is the out of production and expensive Krokodile cart. There is a new cart called the Harmony 2 which is still being developed. I am not sure if EPROM boards exist, as the 8-bit computers are my main area.

potatohead · January 25, 2011

I've a coupla 7800 boards and am personally interested in seeing Harmony 2 when it gets done. That, and the expansion are on my hit list this year, along with a 7800 that isn't just a board. Keep finding them with seriously abused plastic

And that's a difference there too. A8 computers are pretty easy with SIO.

One thing I've seen mentioned is the emulators do not keep track of all the cycles, meaning one has to watch how much MARIA does on a scan line. The cycle counts are known though. Maybe start with the emulators, and have some others test on the real deal, until you can get code on the real thing?

I like that too. Emulator only is a bummer. Great tool for learning and developing, but in the end, seeing it on the real deal is where it's at.

GroovyBee · January 25, 2011

Let's also assume he doesn't give a flying toss about anyones opinion about if he should or shouldn't look at the 7800 because he's interested in getting around to everything eventually.

1) What would be the best emulator for initially testing on in terms of accuracy or any debugging features?

I use ProSystem for initial testing and development. It has no debugger and it isn't cycle accurate so its not very good if you are at the ragged edge of the machine.

2) What is he going to need to get code up and running on real hardware (apart from the 7800, obviously)?

You'll need a CC2 (multi-cart) for ease of development. They haven't been made for several years and come with a hefty price tag (when you can find one). If you have soldering skills you can make yourself a RAM cart but you'll also need to install the DevOS on your 7800 so it can download via parallel port. I'm not sure if Eckhard Stolberg (DevOS author) has finished the serial port version. Other than blowing your own EPROMs the last option would be to wait for the H2 which is in the pipeline.

Failing that any of the 7800 developers can check your start-up code for any errors as well as do any real hardware testing. I run PAL and NTSC machines and test on both.

atariksi · January 25, 2011

Let's also assume he doesn't give a flying toss about anyones opinion about if he should or shouldn't look at the 7800 because he's interested in getting around to everything eventually.

1) What would be the best emulator for initially testing on in terms of accuracy or any debugging features?

I use ProSystem for initial testing and development. It has no debugger and it isn't cycle accurate so its not very good if you are at the ragged edge of the machine.

2) What is he going to need to get code up and running on real hardware (apart from the 7800, obviously)?

You'll need a CC2 (multi-cart) for ease of development. They haven't been made for several years and come with a hefty price tag (when you can find one). If you have soldering skills you can make yourself a RAM cart but you'll also need to install the DevOS on your 7800 so it can download via parallel port. I'm not sure if Eckhard Stolberg (DevOS author) has finished the serial port version. Other than blowing your own EPROMs the last option would be to wait for the H2 which is in the pipeline.

Failing that any of the 7800 developers can check your start-up code for any errors as well as do any real hardware testing. I run PAL and NTSC machines and test on both.

That's pretty good that you have a parallel port based system for Atari 7800. Never tried that but I do have one for A8 development for cross compiling/executing.

Potato sums it up perfectly. And asks a very valid question. Why is mad #3 continually allowed to ruin potentially perfectly good conversations just because he likes to argue for the sake of arguing?

You are an envious snake like Stephen. A few posts of nonenvy didn't change your internal state of hatred, emotional bias toward my posts. I started the conversation regarding comparing those 3 titles which are superior on A8 and it's perfectly on-topic. However, I have no time to deal with envious snakes. Previously, I had to deal with you and the other snakes because it was my thread. Envious snake is worse than an idiot by the way. An idiot is someone too stupid to understand the topic whereas an envious snake doesn't care about the topic but is more interested in attacking someone in the thread.

atariksi · January 25, 2011

Righty... I'm bored of this, so I'm going to tackle something a little more relaxed and acheivable, like bringing peace to the middle east.

Anyone else up for that?

A noble cause. It would be easier to have the one offending asshole (who poses as two assholes) removed from this place. Then the rest of the mature folks who don't feel violated by those with differing OPINIONS could resume having decent discussions about 30 year old abandoned hardware.

For someone who spends a lot of time on A8 forum, you really are in the wrong place.

Opinion of the 7800 vs 8bit

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Join the conversation

Recently Browsing 0 members