Opinion of the 7800 vs 8bit

[atariksi]

 

And you can't really compare the 7800 with the A8, A8 used pretty much 70's tech, the 7800 used 80's tech (simple's as the Ad go), I like to think of the 7800 as an improved A8 (since it's graphics capabilities are borrowed from the A8)

 

 

Um. No. Not really. There is some unfortunate overloading of terminology as "Display Lists" are often spoken of in connection with 7800 programming but they aren't like Antic display lists. Maria is a completely different animal compared to Antic+GTIA with different capabilities and limitations.

 

True. Neither have been exploited fully and my point was comparing titles that exist. I'm sure both versions of Ms. pac-man can be improved. Joust looks like crap in motion on A7800 unless you pause it and those flying/floating eggs don't help. Robotron on A8 uses bigger and better objects so they are much clearer to distinguish which is more important to game play.

[Tin_Lunchbox]

 

As the programmer of Dungeon! the 7800 game used in the comparison I don't do mock-ups .

 

 

Ah, no offense intended, GroovyBee! I was just not familiar with that work-in-progress. I did read about a 7800 Gauntlet rumor and that one does sound a bit doubtful.

[bmcnett]

You are an envious snake... internal state of hatred, emotional bias... I have no time to deal with envious snakes... you and the other snakes... Envious snake is worse than an idiot...

 

This thread is now about the terminology of New Religious Movements. ISKCON can be opaque to the Western observer because much of it takes place in the context of Indian tradition, and it can be difficult to determine if an idea comes from ISKCON or the Indian culture at large. For example, references to "skunks" in this forum seem to derive from a Bengali proverb and are not religious per se.

 

From my ongoing (limited!) research, it seems now that "envious snake" in ISKCON is roughly equivalent to "Suppressive Person" in the Church of Scientology (link). That is to say, someone whose only intention is to disrupt and destroy, and therefore must be destroyed. When the charismatic leaders of both organizations passed away, those who did not accept the transfer of power were branded such and punished.

 

For an introduction to ISKCON, The Church of Scientology, and other New Religious Movements, I recommend Steve Hassan's "Freedom of Mind Center" (link) which though shallow has quite a breadth of useful information.

[Bryan]

You are an envious snake like Stephen. A few posts of nonenvy didn't change your internal state of hatred, emotional bias toward my posts. I started the conversation regarding comparing those 3 titles which are superior on A8 and it's perfectly on-topic. However, I have no time to deal with envious snakes. Previously, I had to deal with you and the other snakes because it was my thread. Envious snake is worse than an idiot by the way. An idiot is someone too stupid to understand the topic whereas an envious snake doesn't care about the topic but is more interested in attacking someone in the thread.

 

Hahahaahahaha! That's the best atariski impression I've seen yet! I was laughing my...... oh wait, what?

[Charlie_]

 

#2 CoCo 3,

Yes! Most powerful 8-bit computer ever. FACT.

 

#3 ..................., and digital sticks!

 

hahahaha!

[analmux]

I don't believe this. Anyway, why not continuing this at the following website?

 

http://formatwar.net/forums

 

This forum is dedicated for this.

 

-------

bobmnvy

[Albert]

Just banned Divya16 and atariksi.

 

..Al

[kool kitty89]

How is the A8 Robotron drawn?

A software blitter of some sort. It's definitely not character based software sprites alone (ie not just 4x8 cell movements), but I'm not sure whether it's using the 4-color bitmap mode or using the character mode but with realtime software blits generating character animation (might cut overhead compared to blitting depending how they did it -more so with pre-rendered animation cells, but that would eat a lot of ROM).

There seems to be some garbage pixels/mattes from imperfect buffer clearing before writing the pixels (and probably unmasked writes/blits), so it seems more like it may be bitmap generated. If it wasn't for the pixel garbage, I might have thought it was plain character graphics with animation to smooth out in-between steps (at least in the vertical since horizontal is 4-pixel steps and not as coarse) and especially since the 5200 (and 16k A8) has enough RAM to have the CPU render some tiles ahead of time and not force that into ROM or realtime rendering (especially if you only did it for vertical steps to allow a pseudo 4x4 cell grid rather than 4x8). As it is, blitting in 4 pixel wide steps makes sense given that would mean single 8-bit writes without having to pre-shift things. (even worse since the 6502 lacks bit manipulation instructions)

 

As such, it's a pretty novel method to use and wouldn't have been possible without enough RAM for a framebuffer (if the 5200 had been cut back more, they'd have had to resort to choppier character grid movements and/or very careful use of software rendering in limited ram to generate character animation for in-between movements -or waste ROM for that). Plus you could work in some hardware sprite stuff to offset the software rendering.

It certainly ended up a lot better than the funky/slowdown heavy Mario Bros port to the A8/5200. (not the later XL/XE upgraded version with better color selection and much faster graphics)

 

 

 

It's a great conversion of the game for the time and for the age of the hardware it was being used on. Probable no other 8-bit home consoles/computers in the US could have done better as such (at least without a lot of prerendering to ROM/RAM), at least prior to 1986. (the BBC Micro or especially Fujitsu FM-7 might have done better, though the latter is arguable 8/16-bit due to the 6809s -and it's got 2 2 MHz 6809s with one dedicated to graphics, so it's actually more powerful for some things than the Williams Arcade board ) The AT, Amiga, and perhaps Tandy-1000 could probably have managed it better, but those are in the 16-bit computer category. (unless you consider the 8088 8-bit, and in that case the Tandy 1000 with 7.16 MHz 8088 and 160x200 or 320x200 16 color mode might manage better -you've also got the 5 hardware sound channels with the SN76489 3 tones+noise and 1-bit toggle "beeper" via CPU/timer control)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#3 Speculations and bias. Everybody knows it's about the color. Any system that has less than 128 colors, well 256 in the GTIA mode, just can't compete.

The funny thing is that the 7800 uses the GTIA palette more flexibly than the A8 can. I don't think there's a pure 4bpp mode, but the ability to use it for 1bpp and 2bpp playfield graphics with multiple palettes as well as up to 13 colors per sprites (per scanline?) is way more than the A8/5200 can claim. (then again, it's over 3 years newer tech than GTIA and the very fact that the 1979/80 chipset could still hold its own fairly well in the mid/late 80s is impressive)

Edited January 25, 2011 by kool kitty89

[kool kitty89]

That's your mental speculation and then you go on with your post ASSUMING I'm going to accept that claim. Arcade is different hardware from the 8-bit machines and there are compromises made like screen orientation, colors, etc. It's better for the game developer to target the strong points of the target machine then try to mimic the arcade at the cost of gameplay. See the Donkey Kong thread in this forum as this was discussed in detail there and why the 8-bit version of ATari 400 is BETTER than the aracade. For you this can never happen because you already ASSUME the arcade version is perfect. Some things on the arcade machines aren't done as well due to their machines and who they are targetting like no pause feature. Joust is another example where A8 version looks better for the reasons I stated which you didn't even address thanks to your false assumption. Get your facts straight before you reply. The rest of your biased speculative analysis won't be answered as your basis is false.

Yes, but you still NEED to compare the arcade to actually make a valid comparison: many find the 7800 version better than the Arcade in some gameplay aspects, but that doesn't mean the Arcade game shouldn't be used as a reference.

 

Without context of the arcade you can't determine what things are flaws from poor conversion/limitations and what were done to maintain arcade authenticity. That's the point of arcade ports: to bring the arcade experience home and possibly offer options (or defaults) to allow easier gameplay more tuned to a casual/non-quarter-crunching context. (the 7800 version of Ms. Pacman is definitely much faster, tougher, and arcade-like than the 2600 version though I'm not sure of all the nuances from the A8 in that context -the A8 version is definitely more detailed and arcade like than the A8/5200 version of Pac Man)

 

That's also why the compilation versions of the arcade games are also so great: they give a mass of flexibility for difficulty settings. (you can set the difficulty level, number of lives, points for a bonus life, etc)

 

The arcade sets a standard, yes a standard that can be exceeded but a standard nonetheless.

 

 

If you want to go by that context, you could bring in Robotron 64. (or compare Tempest 2000 to Arcade Tempest -I think many would argue the former is better as is the very well converted A8 Tempest Extreme based on 2000)

Or the updates to Ms Pac Man on the Genesis with added levels and 2-player simultaneous mode. (they also used vertical scrolling to allow full arcade resolution on a SDTV, but some don't like that element as you can't see the entire board at once -the NES, SNES, and Master System versions do the same thing iirc)

 

 

You also totally failed to address the rest of my previous post, especially the Joust issue where you seem to confuse the 2600 and 7800 versions. (7800 has gravity for eggs, 2600 floats -and I still disagree on the graphics thing, the 7800 vultures and ostrich look much more like what they're supposed to depict even if you don't use the Arcade standard)

[Mirage]

Thank goodness, now may this thread resume with some sanity and reason!

[PeteD]

The C64 is better than both of them!!!

[carmel_andrews]

The C64 is better than both of them!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

whats a c64 again...not heard of that one

 

welcome back anyway pete...where you been (or did you get lost in the valleys)

 

 

As for kool kitty, I get the sneaking feeling that he is a programmer or hardware engineer of some sort

Edited January 26, 2011 by carmel_andrews

[Tin_Lunchbox]

Just banned Divya16 and atariksi.

 

..Al

 

I did not read everything they said, so I don't know exactly how severe the violations were, but I hope it is just a temporary ban, because they are fellow Atari users.

[Albert]

I did not read everything they said, so I don't know exactly how severe the violations were, but I hope it is just a temporary ban, because they are fellow Atari users.

Not temporary, and I don't care if someone is a "fellow Atari user" if they are going to troll and create multiple accounts here.

 

..Al

[Mirage]

I take that to mean we were right about atariksi's sockpuppet in a dress.

 

This thread has inspired me to dig out the 7800 again and give it another shot

[DracIsBack]

The C64 is better than both of them!!!

 

 

Get out of here, you Commie!

[Bryan]

The C64 is better than both of them!!!

 

Oh yes, the 64 is much better.....

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pppeine3xC8

 

 

:D

[Barnacle boy]

 

That looks sexy as hell, GB.

[ATARI7800fan]

Thanks for the comments. Right now I am in the process of possibly buying a Atari 600XL with expanded memory from jaybird3rd. I was also able to buy a copy of Track and Field for 5 dollars. Is that a good price for the game.

[potatohead]

kool kitty89: I'm not sure the A8 Robotron is the better one. It's good, but I find the subtle elements of the game there, in your face, not very well balanced. The scale confines the game, forcing some things, IMHO.

 

It could be done better on the A8. Set the color matter aside, and just put the CPU to work moving things properly, and it would be a much better title.

 

(and I've played a lot 'o Robotron)

[+wood_jl]

I did not read everything they said, so I don't know exactly how severe the violations were, but I hope it is just a temporary ban, because they are fellow Atari users.

Not temporary, and I don't care if someone is a "fellow Atari user" if they are going to troll and create multiple accounts here.

 

..Al

 

Just an honest question: How does one tell if there's a user with multiple accounts? I'm guessing it's a check of IP address, but I really am not informed enough to speculate. So atariksi and divya16 are the same person?????

[+Stephen]

I did not read everything they said, so I don't know exactly how severe the violations were, but I hope it is just a temporary ban, because they are fellow Atari users.

Not temporary, and I don't care if someone is a "fellow Atari user" if they are going to troll and create multiple accounts here.

 

..Al

 

Just an honest question: How does one tell if there's a user with multiple accounts? I'm guessing it's a check of IP address, but I really am not informed enough to speculate. So atariksi and divya16 are the same person?????

Well wood_jl, in the case of those two, there were quite a few "tells". Same IP address which is explained due to the same home mailing address. Constantly answering "each others" posts. Same arguing style, same choice of words. In the digital vs analog thread, divya16 slipped up and answered a post referring to atarksi by saying "i", not "he". If they were not the same physical person, "she" was typing what he was yelling at her.

 

The banning came because of multiple complaints of personal insults, and what can only be described as general douchebaggery. It's not that hard to get along with people here, but somehow, every thread he posted in turned into an argument with personal insults being slung. All for having the gall to disagree with his opinion.

[frogstar_robot]

Just an honest question: How does one tell if there's a user with multiple accounts? I'm guessing it's a check of IP address, but I really am not informed enough to speculate. So atariksi and divya16 are the same person?????

 

The admin can see the incoming IP address and the User Agent from the browser in the server logs. In the case of Atariksi, it so happened pretty much anyone who had been following him could. He really wasn't very good at animating a sock puppet. Besides the writing style and language used ...including insults like "Envious Snake"... he slipped up a time or two doing things like referring to herself as himself and other little leaks and hints between the two personas. Both personalities could also be riled by the same triggers and both had the same tendency to argue things to death over hundreds of replies. See also the infamous 8-bit vs. C64 thread and the recent Analog vs. Digital thread. Those were fun to watch in the same way as watching two steam locomotives collide.

 

A more skilled sock puppeteer will use a machine on another IP and take pains to change up the writing style and vocabulary.

[Mirage]

 

If they were not the same physical person, "she" was typing what he was yelling at her.

 

 

This actually seems like a theory with merit, given the personality involved But I think the sockpuppet explanation that we knew all along is correct.

 

I guess this means the Envious Snake Club roster is forever set in stone! (Until he/she re-registers).

[bmcnett]

I guess this means the Envious Snake Club roster is forever set in stone!

 

This is catalyzing into a "Metal Gear Solid" spinoff.

 

Ten years ago, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... The Envious Snakes.