UNIXcoffee928 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Recently, in conversation, the term, "Packet Radio", popped back into my head, after having read a few articles about it many years ago. A friend was asking me about how citizens could communicate data under emergency conditions. Given the current events of the day, with governments interfering with, & blocking Internet service, & even the U.S. bandying about the concept of implementing an "Internet Kill-Switch", this seems like an important question... "If the Telephone services AND the Internet services were to be disabled... What are your communication options?". So, ever-ready with some kind of reasonable answer, Brain says, "Packet Radio". However, having never actually used Packet Radio, that was about as much as I could offer. I later did a cursory scan of what the search engines bring up, and there's plenty of info on it, readily available. From scanning it briefly, it seemed fairly advantageous to use "old equipment" to make such a connection, since much of it is all about fairly antiquated "old-school" Bell standards based modems being used to modulate and demodulate signals transmitted within the Radio Spectrum. It seemed pretty reasonable, to me, that even 300 bps would better than NO bps, under emergency conditions... and that's the speed that the lowest common denominator Packet Radio setup (easiest) seems to run at, then jumping to 1200-9600 bps, in another area of the radio spectrum. There was also evidence that reliable connection transmission rates could jump upward of 56 Kbps+ with other implementations, requiring more extensive hardware setups. In a civil-defense scenario, it would obviously be advantageous to also encrypt that transmission, in some way, however slight. In America, we have the FCC, which regulates the specifics of all radio broadcasts. My knowledge, in this area, is vague, beyond that, besides for the fact that Citizens may use specific frequencies via "CB", and that most other forms of transmission are considered illegal pirate transmissions. I presume that many frequency specifics from the 1980s documentation are no longer valid, since the advent of cell phones, and the fairly recent re-assignment of the TV bands. Are there any Ham Radio people, or BBS operators here who can fill in the blanks, and provide a better, more scholarly, overview, with some good links? Has anyone here ever experimented with a BBS using Packet Radio technology? It is fascinating, & I would like to learn more about it, but it is a fairly vast subject area, and I could definitely use some Topic-Narrowing Tips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobus Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Interesting idea - sadly this is not my area of expertise. On a (slightly) related note, does anyone have any idea how our vintage computers would handle an EMP (since we're talking worst case scenarios) versus more modern computer systems? Would there be a chance that older systems would continue operating in an environment that wiped out new ones? Would the massive shielding on the 400/800 systems finally prove its worth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Interesting idea - sadly this is not my area of expertise. On a (slightly) related note, does anyone have any idea how our vintage computers would handle an EMP (since we're talking worst case scenarios) versus more modern computer systems? Would there be a chance that older systems would continue operating in an environment that wiped out new ones? Would the massive shielding on the 400/800 systems finally prove its worth? What you need is a Faraday Cage. The shielding on the 400/800 would have to be grounded for it to help. http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/emp_and_faraday_cages.htm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNIXcoffee928 Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Interesting idea - sadly this is not my area of expertise. On a (slightly) related note, does anyone have any idea how our vintage computers would handle an EMP (since we're talking worst case scenarios) versus more modern computer systems? Would there be a chance that older systems would continue operating in an environment that wiped out new ones? Would the massive shielding on the 400/800 systems finally prove its worth? I have read a lot about air-burst related EMP, but there are a lot of things that are typically not addressed in such papers & reports. What I have read can be summarized as: - In general, analog devices fair much better then any type of semiconductor (this is why late-model MIGs used vacuum tubes to control the bare basics of maintaining flight... we laughed at first, until we thought about EMP effects...). - EMP shielded cables have been around for a long time, but are rarely used, due to their expense - If the blast-effects and radiation haven't already killed you, you should consider yourself fairly lucky that your only troubles are that your computer is fried. lol. What they don't specifically mention is: - Does it matter if the device is plugged in? Well, if it is, the initial power-surge on your house's (... & town, county, state's, region's, etc.) electrical wiring will probably set it, & your house, and your whole block's power lines, on the poles, on fire, about say... (random foo factor...).03 seconds before the EMP destroys the semiconductors in your device. - If you have a computer buried in the basement, unplugged, in a lead case, in a concrete box with 3 ft. perfectly sealed walls, with anechoic chambering, would it work after the EMP? This is assuming that your house is not a pile of rubble resembling a REALLY bad day at a Toothpick Factory... and you could actually get to the device in the so-called "basement"... lol. When I was a young man, there still were "Fallout Shelter" signs on many public buildings, the Yellow paint has faded and blistered on these signs, bolted sturdily into brick walls, as an indicator that time was passing, and that I was getting older. During the Cold War, these shelters were actually well-supplied, and maintained (to some degrees better than others, based on proximities to cities) by CD (Civil Defense) Personnel. I don't know exactly when CD officially ended as a program, in the US... it sort of just faded out of existence. Probably the last 20 years of the CD program were largely just to give citizens some kind of straw of Hope that survival was possible. The reality of it was that after the time of the Titan Missile, there really was no use in having a fallout shelter, because it would be useless in post 1962 Atomic warfare. One thing that is hard for people to conceive of is "A Massive Nuclear Strike". The world knows about the effect that single bombs had in Japan, in 1945... utter devastation... but it was a Contained Devastation... with what is now considered a "Small Nuclear Device". Before the breakup of the USSR, if there had been a Nuclear War, THOUSANDS of warheads from MIRV-equipped ICBMs would have left our planet uninhabitable by any form of life. Sad, but true. Between Blast Effects, EMP, and widespread radiation, nothing would have survived. A lot of "ordinary, everyday people" started get a small inkling of what the future held, when the movies, " ", and " " enlightened the Average Joe... but, really they had NO IDEA of the dangerous world that they were living in, 20 Years before those shows aired. Basically, what I'm getting at is: Under the scenario of Superpowers utilizing Atomic weapons... you're fu*ked. EMP won't even enter into the equation, because there IS NO SURVIVAL. No cell phone service will matter little if your hair is coming out in clumps and you are bleeding from every opening in your body. In 2011, this is much less likely. You mostly have to worry about some errorist with a dirty-bomb, if you are worried about radiation. Even this scenario is highly unlikely. This doesn't stop people Hell-Bent on Death-Dealing from using all sorts of other conventional weapons to ruin your life, but that's outside the scope of this discussion. There are modern EMP focused devices, but you can be sure that if they actually were used in combat, ICBMS would follow shortly. So, as the concept of the Fallout Shelter once became obsolete for you, in reality, for everyone outside of NORAD with it's EMP hardened bunker, and coil-shock mounted floors, you will probably find that Personal EMP Concerns are also obsolete. It really won't matter. No powerplant would survive, no wiring to your house would survive, and your house wouldn't survive... so what wall-outlet are you planning on plugging this sh1t into? lol. To bring all of this back around to Packet Radio... ha... lets presume "Civil Insurrection", rather than "Nuclear Devastation"... You have a very good chance of living through civil insurrection, whereas, with Nuclear Warfare, once it starts, there is no looking back, and no saying "Sorry". Watch "Atomic Cafe" if you've never seen it. Now back to my otherwise cheery day, lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox-1 / mnx Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) Packet radio was popular over here (NL) in the early 90's on 11 Meter band (CB). Basically there are 2 kind of modems. The cheap ones (like Baycom), doing the difficult stuff on the CPU part (usually PC's and Amiga's) and the more expensive intelligent ones (like TNC) with their own CPU to off load the computer. I was never able to find packet radio software for Atari 8-bit so I never joined that scene but lot's of friend did. I do know it's a hell for regular CB users as it put's lot's of noise in the spectrum. You may ask Nick Kennedy (original SIO2PC hard/software) if he's still around. He was a HAM and Atari 8-Bit user and is mentioning "Packet Radio" in the original SIO2PC software docs. edit: typo's Edited March 10, 2011 by Fox-1 / mnx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathanallan Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I know people around here that use packet radio at slower speeds, it really isn't a problem with modems on both ends. The legal aspect... sure, it's pirate if you are on the wrong frequencies and use modified equipment that is against FCC rules. In reality, though, if something like that was to happen the FCC would have better things to do than chasing down people for using modified hardware (modding antennas that are built in to a device for example, is illegal). The family band little radios are a nice choice to start with. The have up to 17 miles range (some of them at least), and a lot of them have headphone and mic jacks and those are great for running into a sound card on a pc that uses some freeware packet software. A loophole to the hardware thing is that you CAN hoist the radio itself on top of a mast and thence bypass needing to make a new antenna for it, and also run a power supply to it instead of using AA or AAA batteries. Yeah, there's a LOT of info out there on Packet Radio. And some of it you don't even need a license to use it (like amateur radio users). Nathan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox-1 / mnx Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 The legal aspect... sure, it's pirate if you are on the wrong frequencies and use modified equipment that is against FCC rules. At some point it became legal over here. 2 Channels were reserved for packet radio, namely channel 36 (27.365Mc FM) and 40 (27.405Mc FM). Don't know it'll be used much these days. I doubt it as last time I checked these frequencies these were totally empty. The family band little radios are a nice choice to start with. The have up to 17 miles range (some of them at least) 17 Miles is not that good. Solved that by using this one: Problem is, if they can here you, it doesn't mean you can hear them too :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S1500 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I was given a VHF rig by my dad(plus a CB), needing just a 12-volt feed(I assume) that I haven't got around to play with yet. Was considering using an old computer power supply. Would that work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 my dad was a HAM, and unlike most HAM's my dad for some reason didnt care much for computers... but when i would go to the Amateur Supply Store, there was a C64 there setup with either a code training program, a program where you would type and it would send code, and often times, a packet radio terminal. i guess its fortunate he wasnt into computers, cause i would guess he would have gotten a C64... i wasnt into radio, so i didnt do anything with it beyond, i setup and tried a couple times using WEFAX when it was released in Antic magazine... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathanallan Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Right, 17 miles isn't that good but for the price it is a steal-- those radios go for ~10-50USD. High power rigs like that one go for hundreds of bucks. It solves a problem of range, sure, but it's pretty expensive for starting up a rig. S1500, a PC power supply would get you out there but you will find you would want one that has much more power to it. There is so much more to that question. But it will work to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Right, 17 miles isn't that good but for the price it is a steal-- those radios go for ~10-50USD. High power rigs like that one go for hundreds of bucks. It solves a problem of range, sure, but it's pretty expensive for starting up a rig. S1500, a PC power supply would get you out there but you will find you would want one that has much more power to it. There is so much more to that question. But it will work to begin with. i thought a switching power supply couldnt be used for RF broadcast, thought you had to use linear? sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin_Lunchbox Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Recently, in conversation, the term, "Packet Radio", popped back into my head, after having read a few articles about it many years ago. A friend was asking me about how citizens could communicate data under emergency conditions. Given the current events of the day, with governments interfering with, & blocking Internet service, & even the U.S. bandying about the concept of implementing an "Internet Kill-Switch", this seems like an important question... "If the Telephone services AND the Internet services were to be disabled... What are your communication options?". So, ever-ready with some kind of reasonable answer, Brain says, "Packet Radio". I recalled a user letter from Antic magazine June 1982 in which Mr. James Howard relatedly wrote: I am an amateur radio operator, AA5R. I am now using a home made modem and a variation of the baudot terminal emulat program (from the ATARI 850 Interface Manual) to receive radio-teletype messages from around the world. This has the excitement of telephone interfacing, but with no telephone bill! There have been few articles published related to the use of the ATARI in the radio hobby. Can you cover it in some future issue? It's a cool concept, to have a radio at your residence and communicate with your computer that way. An extension of that would be an auto-updating network of like users, independent of any telecommunications giant or national government. You'd never get the bandwidth that way, certainly not with an Atari 8bit, but there would be enough for email and chat and some sort of basic browsing with no or reduced images. TiN[]BoX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox-1 / mnx Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) i thought a switching power supply couldnt be used for RF broadcast, thought you had to use linear? True. Switching power supplies are causing so much interference (while receiving and transmitting) that it's not usable. Years ago I tried to make filters to make the power signal a bit cleaner but it just won't do. Also, most mobile transceivers are made to operate at 13.8VDC. They do work at 12VDC but not at full power. edit: Before packet radio existed there were other protocols like AMTOR and RTTY. These a much simpler devices and software exists for Atari 8-bit too. Such a modem would be connected to an XL joystick port. Edited March 11, 2011 by Fox-1 / mnx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 NecroBump... Any more info on this subject? At present, I am BEGINNING work on an Atari BBS that will use telnet. But if the shit hits the fan, (and it very well may), I would like to have an alternative communication plan. I know how to use generators, solar panels, and batteries, and I think an Atari 800 in an earth grounded metal box would be fairly safe from EMP. I can't quite grasp the radio part. Would I need 2 radios on different frequencies for full duplex? Could I just lock one radio on xmit and the other on recv, and connect to the mic / speaker to an old 830 acoustic coupler modem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) Proposed ATASCII Welcome screen attached. Comments? I used the attached program BULLGEN (originally from FoReM), slightly modified and compiled to make most of it, then some TextPro work to fine tune it. TITLE.TXT BULLGEN.ARC Edited March 8, 2015 by Kyle22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 For Packet Radio, you would need something like these: KANTRONICS KPC-3 PACKET TERMINAL AEA PK-88 TNC Packet Controller AEA PAKRATT PK-232 TNC AEA Computer Patch CP-1 Or for RTTY, you could use these: kantronics Interface Kantronics Interface II MFJ 1224 The packet controllers normally have built-in text based commands to configure / start / stop communications. The RTTY interfaces can connect to an 850 type interface or straight to a joystick port using the Kantronics Hamsoft / Hamtext / Amtor software. I got my Ham Radio license a few months ago and will be testing out Packet on my 2-Meter radio after I wire it up. The TNC's I have are the kantronics I and II, kantronics KPC-2, MFJ 1224 and the AEA PAKRATT PK-232. Packet and RTTY normally operate in simplex mode (one frequency for Transmit & Receive), where each station will transmit, then listen for a response... Using an 830 modem would take some doing to use over-the-air, but an interesting idea 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Thanks for the info. What I don't understand, is in simplex, is the radio quickly switching between xmit/recv between each character, or how exactly does it work? Would it provide the same experience as 2 users with normal modems on each end? Sorry to ask stupid questions, but this is all new to me... The computer interface part, that is... When I was a teenager, I built an AM transmitter out of scavenged parts to piss off my old man neighbor I used a pair of 6DQ6's for finals, I think they push about 35W each, if I remember right. His favorite radio station was 60 miles away with 100K watts, but I was right next door. Guess who he had to hear It's been a while, but I am no stranger to radio... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 In either Packet or RTTY, one station will send it's data similar to how a BBS sends Menu screens. You'll receive a sentence or full screen of text, then you send a few characters, a sentence or more of text back to the sender. Think of it like texting on a cell phone where you send / receive a full message at a time, not one character at a time. In high school, I made a TV jammer using a 100 watt RF transistor where it produced harmonics at every 1khz, but it was also jamming FM Radio Stations, Aircraft freqs and other VHF frequencies. This too was to pull a prank on the neighbors, but also pissed of many others, so it didn't last long 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 OK, I'm starting to get it. Does the BBS software on the Atari need to know the difference between a regular modem and a packet / RTTY setup, or is that all handled by the RS232 - radio interface? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanmercer Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 my dad was a HAM, and unlike most HAM's my dad for some reason didnt care much for computers... but when i would go to the Amateur Supply Store, there was a C64 there setup with either a code training program, a program where you would type and it would send code, and often times, a packet radio terminal. i guess its fortunate he wasnt into computers, cause i would guess he would have gotten a C64... i wasnt into radio, so i didnt do anything with it beyond, i setup and tried a couple times using WEFAX when it was released in Antic magazine... sloopy. The ham across the street from me's computer is windows 98 era... a lot of ham's don't keep up with computers. A LOT. As far as everyone wanting to know more about packet radio your questions would be quickly answered over at http://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 OK, I'm starting to get it. Does the BBS software on the Atari need to know the difference between a regular modem and a packet / RTTY setup, or is that all handled by the RS232 - radio interface? Yes it does as there are different communication protocols for different radio modems. You would first have to decide on which modem to use. There was a Packet Radio program published in the QST magazine for Atari computers in the mid 80's, which I still need to type in 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Thanks for the info, if you know where to find that QST magazine, I may be able to OCR it to avoid the typing. BTW, How about the BaoFeng 70 cm + 2M radios, the price is nice, cable to external antenna would be required, I think. From what I can understand, Packet Radio is usually done around 440+ Mhz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) I just searched for my emails from the QST support guy and the article is in the November 1987 issue on page 15. eBay Auction -- Item Number: 171694297236 For the program listing, you have to contact QST to send you a copy. After I type it in, I'll post the binary and basic creator for it... Out here in San Diego, Packet Comms are in the lower 144Mhz (2-Meter) range. Oh! and the BaoFeng radios are called throw-aways by the locals as they are pretty cheap, but have heard good reports about them. Edited March 9, 2015 by AtariGeezer 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Interesting material, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 bumpity bump bump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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