IDE Plus 2.0 - new IDE host adapter

[Mathy]

Hello Jon

 

Just for remote connection to XL 50-way edge connector...

 

Duh! Why didn't I think of that? Maybe it's because my head's still spinning from all the shouting that when on here a while ago.

 

sincerely

 

Mathy

[drac030]

One point I want to make: what happens if you hook the device up to a machine already equipped with any of the following:

 

Ultimate 1MB (i.e. Internal SDX, RTC)

"Other" IntSDX

ARC Clock

 

Unless the IDE 2.0's on-board RTC and integral SDX can be selectively deactivated, I imagine there'll be clashes. Do we have jumpers to turn these features off if we don't need them?

 

As I wrote above, the IDE Plus SDX module can be switched off physically. Otherwise there are no conflicts, because 1) the SDX controlling register is outside page D5, 2) so is the RTC's controlling register.

[+bf2k+]

Sorry to laugh at your pain. Reminds me of work where my damn code requirements will change, then revert, then change again. Sometimes I'll end up leaving big blocks of code in, just commented out, knowing someone will change their mind again.

 

I do the same thing!

[BillC]

I don't know if it's got anything to do with the programming I'm doing at the moment, but I'm still as confused as ever. I now have an untwisted IDC50 card-edge to IDC50 socket cable, but it's only an inch long. If I didn't want to buy another edge connector, I could buy another length of 50 way cable, and extend the adapter cable to a useable length. This would mean it was still useful for plugging in the end of the existing (IDEa to XE adapter) cable, and could also be used direct with the new device.

 

Other than that, I'm happy to "cross that bridge when I come to it". Explaining these things is notoriously difficult, and comprehending them somewhat more so. The reason I ended up making the twist cable is that I had failed to tell Candle that what I wanted to make was an extension which would plug into the end of a cable using dual-header pins. I'm sure he would have saved me a lot of work if he'd realized that.

 

I'll start looking for an IDC50 card edge connector and another length of SCSI cable. That way, I'll be ready for anything.

 

One point I want to make: what happens if you hook the device up to a machine already equipped with any of the following:

 

Ultimate 1MB (i.e. Internal SDX, RTC)

"Other" IntSDX

ARC Clock

 

Unless the IDE 2.0's on-board RTC and integral SDX can be selectively deactivated, I imagine there'll be clashes. Do we have jumpers to turn these features off if we don't need them?

It's fairly easy to explain why connecting 2 IDC cables with a dual-row male header converts it from IDC to PBI compliant.

The IDC50 female socket layout is the same as Atari PBI, which is male.

Inserting a dual row header changes it to a male connection while retaining the IDC50-female/PBI layout.

 

As for the issue with multiple SDX/RT-8 devices, I believe the both the Ultimate 1MB upgrade and IntSDX make a provision for disabling to allow other DOS's to be used, I don't see an jumpers on the IDE Plus 2.0 but there could be a configuration menu similar to the MIO/BB. I don't know about disabling the clocks or whether there would be conflicts with multiple active clocks.

[Simius]

I don't see an jumpers on the IDE Plus 2.0

Look at photo no.2 or 3. Betweeen two large holes are three small ones. That are for (temporarily unassembled) switch.

 

I don't know about disabling the clocks or whether there would be conflicts with multiple active clocks.

In this case there is only one possible conflict. If on the two clocks are different hours.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Simius

[BillC]

In this picture the end of the HDD appears to be above the top(odd) rows of pins for the PBI header.

You did say in post #42 that there is 5mm(just under 0.2") clearance which is close even for an uninsulated right angle header.

 

Vertical clearance for the PBI header could be increased by mounting the HDD slightly further from the circuit board, this doesn't require any circuit board changes, at most a longer angle header between the 2 circuit boards and longer HDD spacers/mounting screws. This is not necessary if the board is extended as I already suggested in post #85.

 

As to the question of whether using a header/ribbon cable would cause any problems, how about 1 of the 5 prototypes being modified and tested. I doubt many people will order this device for use with an XL unless it is confirmed to work with a ribbon cable connection.

 

Does it also support ATR images, like the SIO2SD/SDrive devices, or only standard partitions?

[Defender II]

Some explanations seem to be necessary here.

 

The card edge connector is weighted down by any attached PCB, regardless if the PCB stands up or lays flat. In both cases a support is required, and without a support the connector is weighted even more, when the PCB lays flat, than when it stands up vertically. The PBI connector has intentionally and on purpose been mounted like that on the interface. The reasons which led to such decision are these:

1) reduction of the place occupied by the interface. It seems important for many people.

2) straight card edge connectors are much easier to buy, than right-angle connectors (not to mention straddle-mount connectors)

3) in any case the problem of some support must be taken into consideration. The PBI connector mounted this way serves as a support for the PCB, when the interface is inserted into an XE computer, so this way it per se solves a half of the support problem.

It should be taken into account, that it is not possible to make an universal support for the same PCB to be positioned flat behind an XE and XL model, because the neccesary distance between interface and the desk surface with XE is different than with XL. The interface is designed so that one can attach it to an XE, and, after a while, to an 800XL without much trouble. The interface, as it is, when connected to an 800XL, rests with the PCB's surface on the computer's chassis. What remains to be done, it is to add suitable support so that the PCB is tightened and the connection safe. For example as on the photo below (it is only a provisional solution, please don't pay attention to the fact that it doesn't look very aesthetic at the moment).

As to the ribbon cable connection, as I wrote before, it is possible to use one, if the disk sat upside down, and a right-angle header installed on the component side of the PCB. But I wrote that it was not recommended and there are some reasons to say so. Ironically, I spent few past evenings investigating, why single words are regularly lost in I/O with certain computer (while not with any other one), and finally I found out, that the reason is a too long cable, which was interfering with the internal operation of the machine, and that, in turn, influenced the interface's operation. It is possible that Slor used a long cable to connect an IDEa to PBI without problems, but in this case it is not a good idea. The hard disk's FIFO is very sensitive to any glitches leading to data loss, especially if there are power lines nearby, where fast and significant current changes occur, e.g. when the disk is moving the heads (esp. if the current goes through several tiny wires from a power supply which is common to the entire setup). It will not necessarily cause instant problems, but you have been warned.

The basic concept of powering the interface, for ergonomic reasons, provides no separate power supply. In 800XL, where there is no 5V on the PBI, it should be added using short, thick wires from the motherboard connected to the same pins, where the 5V is in the 600XL. For those, who cannot do this, or do not want to modify the computer, the final version

of the PCB will be equipped with a separate power connector. Anyone who insists to connect the computer using a ribbon cable also should use the separate power supply.

 

 

 

There doesn't appear to be enough room to install a header with a hard drive installed. can you please post a picture showing that the solder holes are clear with a drive installed? I would like to get one but won't be able to use it if I can't install a header and use a ribbon cable. Please revise the PCB to extend the length and move the header mounting holes further from the hard drive.

 

None of the pictures in post #1 show that end with the drive installed either.Post #1.

 

I am also concerned if you do use the PBI card edge connector that your connector is mounted too close to the edge of the board, not only stressing the PBI, but also your connector and IDE 2.0 PCB. Having installed and maintained computers from laptops to main frames for close to 30 years that is a problem waiting to happen even with support. FYI you don't want connections weighted down. Weight on a connection is stress. Stress causes things to wear and to break. The majority of the weight when mounted that way is above and behind the connection. With the weight that way the highest part is will twist toward the rear or front and like a fulcrum, it will torque the connection unless you attach the PCB directly to the computer case. A cable connection won't weigh down the PCB so no stress and no breaking. Just my observations, I hope they help you make a better product.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Defender II

[Simius]

Vertical clearance for the PBI header could be increased by mounting the HDD slightly further from the circuit board, this doesn't require any circuit board changes, at most a longer angle header between the 2 circuit boards and longer HDD spacers/mounting screws. This is not necessary if the board is extended as I already suggested in post #85.

Yes. I think about it.

 

As to the question of whether using a header/ribbon cable would cause any problems, how about 1 of the 5 prototypes being modified and tested. I doubt many people will order this device for use with an XL unless it is confirmed to work with a ribbon cable connection.

I just bought online 50-pos IDC edge connector, FDC connector and 3-feet cable. In a few days I should get, then test it.

[Simius]

There doesn't appear to be enough room to install a header with a hard drive installed. can you please post a picture showing that the solder holes are clear with a drive installed? I would like to get one but won't be able to use it if I can't install a header and use a ribbon cable. Please revise the PCB to extend the length and move the header mounting holes further from the hard drive.

The key is: "without insulator". The small PCB with 44-pos 0.08" pitch socket for HD is mounted to the mainboard with the same, right-angle header and there is enough room. BTW, there isn't any problem to elevate HD a bit. It's enough to elevate that header during assembly. I just need to know before.

 

I am also concerned if you do use the PBI card edge connector that your connector is mounted too close to the edge of the board, not only stressing the PBI, but also your connector and IDE 2.0 PCB. Having installed and maintained computers from laptops to main frames for close to 30 years that is a problem waiting to happen even with support. FYI you don't want connections weighted down. Weight on a connection is stress. Stress causes things to wear and to break. The majority of the weight when mounted that way is above and behind the connection. With the weight that way the highest part is will twist toward the rear or front and like a fulcrum, it will torque the connection unless you attach the PCB directly to the computer case. A cable connection won't weigh down the PCB so no stress and no breaking. Just my observations, I hope they help you make a better product.

I appreciate your concern. I know this. That's response, why I propose support adapter not by extend of mainboard, but with another piece of laminate instead. Although it also may be too little. I still think about it.

 

PS. Sorry, if my english is weak. I hope you understand me.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Simius

[flashjazzcat]

Does this use the same hardware registers as previous models?

[Simius]

Does this use the same hardware registers as previous models?

Exactly.

[MEtalGuy66]

Just for grins, why don;t you show us a picture of what the entire "rig" looks like installed on an XL, instead of just the bottom half of it?

[Defender II]

There doesn't appear to be enough room to install a header with a hard drive installed. can you please post a picture showing that the solder holes are clear with a drive installed? I would like to get one but won't be able to use it if I can't install a header and use a ribbon cable. Please revise the PCB to extend the length and move the header mounting holes further from the hard drive.

The key is: "without insulator". The small PCB with 44-pos 0.08" pitch socket for HD is mounted to the mainboard with the same, right-angle header and there is enough room. BTW, there isn't any problem to elevate HD a bit. It's enough to elevate that header during assembly. I just need to know before.

 

I am also concerned if you do use the PBI card edge connector that your connector is mounted too close to the edge of the board, not only stressing the PBI, but also your connector and IDE 2.0 PCB. Having installed and maintained computers from laptops to main frames for close to 30 years that is a problem waiting to happen even with support. FYI you don't want connections weighted down. Weight on a connection is stress. Stress causes things to wear and to break. The majority of the weight when mounted that way is above and behind the connection. With the weight that way the highest part is will twist toward the rear or front and like a fulcrum, it will torque the connection unless you attach the PCB directly to the computer case. A cable connection won't weigh down the PCB so no stress and no breaking. Just my observations, I hope they help you make a better product.

I appreciate your concern. I know this. That's response, why I propose support adapter not by extend of mainboard, but with another piece of laminate instead. Although it also may be too little. I still think about it.

 

PS. Sorry, if my english is weak. I hope you understand me.

 

Your English is far superior to my Polish and German etc. You don't need to be sorry and should be proud that you have done so well to learn another language. I regret that I didn't listen more closely when my Grandparents were speaking Polish & German.

 

Can you please post a picture showing that the solder holes for the right angle header for the PBI cable are clear with a drive installed?

 

Thanks.

[drac030]

Does it also support ATR images, like the SIO2SD/SDrive devices, or only standard partitions?

 

For now it only supports partitions, but ATR support is planned. It has not yet been done in the firmware.

[spookt]

I noticed a comment in the new Pre-Order thread that SDX functionality only works on the XE series. Is that correct? Is there a reason why?

 

Apologies if I missed it in the thread.

[drac030]

Apologies if I missed it in the thread.

 

You didn't miss it, it wasn't written here. I didn't write that because I didn't know that either. :/

[+Larry]

I have another question that I don't think has been covered. From the photo (and text) the device contains a 44-pin female connector for a 2.5" HD. So using a regular male 44-pin drive --> compact flash adapter should be easy.

 

But (I think) I see spacing on the main board for the standard 40-pin IDE connector? Does the "little 44-pin female end board" actually plug into the main adapter board or is it soldered?

 

-Larry

 

Apologies if I missed it in the thread.

 

You didn't miss it, it wasn't written here. I didn't write that because I didn't know that either. :/

[pjbramley]

I want one. When do you expect to start production!!!!

[Simius]

I noticed a comment in the new Pre-Order thread that SDX functionality only works on the XE series. Is that correct? Is there a reason why?

 

SDX onboard is not activ on the XL series, because I didn't think that it's needed at all. Adapter isn't connected to the cartridge slot, unlike on the XE series. Furthermore, if SDX is on, there is inevitable conflict with any cartridge connected to its slot or built inside, due to lack of some signals present on the cartridge slot, but not present on the PBI. If it's important for you and accept the possibility of such conflict, I can make SDX active on the XL series. This shouldn't be a very big trouble.

[Simius]

Just for grins, why don;t you show us a picture of what the entire "rig" looks like installed on an XL, instead of just the bottom half of it?

 

 

It will be good?

[MEtalGuy66]

Well, Simius, I have developed alot of respect for you during our conversations over the course of this thread.

 

I'm not going to say anything bad about it. It's a very interesting design, and while it does not meet my personal preferences, the last thing I want to do is discourage others from having their own objective views.

 

Thank you for the picture.

[flashjazzcat]

Can I post my objective view... please!

 

Seriously, it sticks up a bit higher than I'd thought it would (I dunno why I'm surprised; after all, I know how big a 3.5" HDD is). It definitely wouldn't work that way in my setup, since it would obscure part of the monitor's screen. But hey - it might work for some folks with pedestal stands.

 

My personal preference is definitely for the cable

 

EDIT: I will add, the arrangement in the picture is visually no worse than an R-Time 8 and SDX cart sticking out of the top of the XL's cart slot. To be fair...

Edited March 30, 2011 by flashjazzcat

[Simius]

Well, Simius, [...]

Nice to read this.

 

But (I think) I see spacing on the main board for the standard 40-pin IDE connector? Does the "little 44-pin female end board" actually plug into the main adapter board or is it soldered?

Soldered.

[+bf2k+]

I can make SDX active on the XL series. This shouldn't be a very big trouble.

 

Please do!

[+bob1200xl]

The IOR and IOW lines to the IDE device are edge-triggered inputs, and, as such, are very sensitive to overshoot/ringing. What happens is the IDE logic sees two reads or writes for a single transfer. (lloking like a 'lost' byte) Like a lot of Atari problems, a matter of too fast for its own good. Besides good ground paths, you may get some relief by adding a series resistor to each circuit - 50 to 100 ohms. Connect it as close as you can to the source pin on the IC that drives the signal. I have found that ATMEL CPLDs (ATF750s) seem to do better that LS logic, also.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

Some explanations seem to be necessary here.

 

The card edge connector is weighted down by any attached PCB, regardless if the PCB stands up or lays flat. In both cases a support is required, and without a support the connector is weighted even more, when the PCB lays flat, than when it stands up vertically. The PBI connector has intentionally and on purpose been mounted like that on the interface. The reasons which led to such decision are these:

1) reduction of the place occupied by the interface. It seems important for many people.

2) straight card edge connectors are much easier to buy, than right-angle connectors (not to mention straddle-mount connectors)

3) in any case the problem of some support must be taken into consideration. The PBI connector mounted this way serves as a support for the PCB, when the interface is inserted into an XE computer, so this way it per se solves a half of the support problem.

It should be taken into account, that it is not possible to make an universal support for the same PCB to be positioned flat behind an XE and XL model, because the neccesary distance between interface and the desk surface with XE is different than with XL. The interface is designed so that one can attach it to an XE, and, after a while, to an 800XL without much trouble. The interface, as it is, when connected to an 800XL, rests with the PCB's surface on the computer's chassis. What remains to be done, it is to add suitable support so that the PCB is tightened and the connection safe. For example as on the photo below (it is only a provisional solution, please don't pay attention to the fact that it doesn't look very aesthetic at the moment).

As to the ribbon cable connection, as I wrote before, it is possible to use one, if the disk sat upside down, and a right-angle header installed on the component side of the PCB. But I wrote that it was not recommended and there are some reasons to say so. Ironically, I spent few past evenings investigating, why single words are regularly lost in I/O with certain computer (while not with any other one), and finally I found out, that the reason is a too long cable, which was interfering with the internal operation of the machine, and that, in turn, influenced the interface's operation. It is possible that Slor used a long cable to connect an IDEa to PBI without problems, but in this case it is not a good idea. The hard disk's FIFO is very sensitive to any glitches leading to data loss, especially if there are power lines nearby, where fast and significant current changes occur, e.g. when the disk is moving the heads (esp. if the current goes through several tiny wires from a power supply which is common to the entire setup). It will not necessarily cause instant problems, but you have been warned.

The basic concept of powering the interface, for ergonomic reasons, provides no separate power supply. In 800XL, where there is no 5V on the PBI, it should be added using short, thick wires from the motherboard connected to the same pins, where the 5V is in the 600XL. For those, who cannot do this, or do not want to modify the computer, the final version

of the PCB will be equipped with a separate power connector. Anyone who insists to connect the computer using a ribbon cable also should use the separate power supply.