Atari and their pork pies (Atari STE specs)

[oky2000]

So I found a very juicy little article where the Tramiels were putting the word out that the STE would have BETTER sound AND graphics than the Amiga. The news item from the magazine in question specifically states that the STE would have 256 colours instead of the Amiga's 32 (which is 64 in reality) out of 4096 colours.

 

We all know it turned out not even as good as the Amiga with big dirty great borders and still only 16 colours out of 4096. If Atari had spent more time making new custom chips and less time making pork pies (lies) the STE may have been as good as the Amiga LOL

[+wood_jl]

That could just be an over-sensationalized puff-piece. They should have gone into detail about how much more (than 32k) screen RAM the STe would take to put up 256 colors. Perhaps the magazine was merely looking to fill a page; they don't give any quotes by Atari officials, and they admit that the STe (at that point) was pure speculation, in the part of the article that says "Of course, this is all speculation since Atari have yet to confirm the existence of the Ste despite press reports and well-founded rumor." So if Atari had not as yet confirmed the existence of the STe, how can you attribute this sloppy journalism to them?

 

The magazine (or the writer) really demonstrates their ineptitude when they say "If things keep going like this, we'll be seeing STs in the year 2000 with enough knobs bolted on to run a battleship." How the hell can they draw that conclusion? Everybody knows advancement of the ST was an exercise in waiting and frustration, resulting in the eventual STe release (obviously later than this article) being too-little, too-late. Just sloppy, sensationalized journalism, not attributable to Atari.

Edited April 11, 2011 by wood_jl

[+orpheuswaking]

Typical article for ACE magazine (remember these are the guys that championed the failure that was the Konix Multisystem)

 

 

Also I did not know Atari wore hats?

[Zogging Hell]

This was reported in several of the ST magazines in the UK (ST Format being one) and I think it was looked into being implemented, but the STe didn't have the processing muscle to use it for much more than static screens. As the STFM can push out 512 colours on static screens and the STe up to 19200 odd (Photochrome), it would have been pretty pointless, not to mention a memory eating beast. I doubt a comparable Amiga would have had the muscle to do anything but static screens with 256 colours either, despite its 'superiority'. Certainly not make a playable game. The TT had 256 colours and is not to distant in time from the STe so I think the technology was there but the processor grunt and memory weren't.

[oky2000]

CD-ROM....ST console....Megapixel screen (1000x1000) on Megas etc. They had a habit of bullshitting the press to scare their competitors.

[+wood_jl]

CD-ROM....ST console....Megapixel screen (1000x1000) on Megas etc. They had a habit of bullshitting the press to scare their competitors.

 

Yeah, they did do that. However, I think it was one of their tactics to announce product and then gauge reaction, basically using the users as a marketing test-panel. Frustrating, but probably more for that reason, rather than to scare competitors.

[Pilsner73]

Ah the STe, a nice computer but too late and it's features were never really exploited by software developers. Of course I have always said if Atari could of released it by 1987 and the TT030 by 1988 who knows how things would of developed.

 

Atari under the Tramiels always claimed to be power without the price and it could of been that if (IMO) the STe is released in 1987 at the same price level of the Amiga. One thing I wish ATari would of done was added a 16mhz mode to it like they did the Mega STe. Now if Atari could of done this in 1987 with actual inventory of machines I think they keep their market share during the dram shortage. Good sales and market share keep software developers in the fold and the STe gets real development for the next few years until the Falcon030 is ready.

[Retro Rogue]

CD-ROM....ST console....Megapixel screen (1000x1000) on Megas etc. They had a habit of bullshitting the press to scare their competitors.

 

Yeah, they did do that. However, I think it was one of their tactics to announce product and then gauge reaction, basically using the users as a marketing test-panel. Frustrating, but probably more for that reason, rather than to scare competitors.

 

They actually did show a CD-ROM unit at one point though.

 

A lot of the issues with Jack and Sam at that time was also supply channels. With their strategy of wanting to get the lowest price in comparison to anyone, that hinged on also being able to find suppliers that allowed them to meet that price point. That didn't always happen as planned and sometimes things got cancelled because of that.

 

One well known supplier issue for example would be with the Lynx, which they had worked out a deal with the LCD screen supplier that would allow them to drop the price of the Lynx below the GameBoy's. The supplier wound up reneging, which in turn didn't allow them to drop the price like they wanted. They of course wound up suing the supplier and won, but too late for the Lynx and the rest is history.

Edited April 12, 2011 by wgungfu

[oky2000]

CD-ROM....ST console....Megapixel screen (1000x1000) on Megas etc. They had a habit of bullshitting the press to scare their competitors.

 

Yeah, they did do that. However, I think it was one of their tactics to announce product and then gauge reaction, basically using the users as a marketing test-panel. Frustrating, but probably more for that reason, rather than to scare competitors.

 

They actually did show a CD-ROM unit at one point though.

 

A lot of the issues with Jack and Sam at that time was also supply channels. With their strategy of wanting to get the lowest price in comparison to anyone, that hinged on also being able to find suppliers that allowed them to meet that price point. That didn't always happen as planned and sometimes things got cancelled because of that.

 

One well known supplier issue for example would be with the Lynx, which they had worked out a deal with the LCD screen supplier that would allow them to drop the price of the Lynx below the GameBoy's. The supplier wound up reneging, which in turn didn't allow them to drop the price like they wanted. They of course wound up suing the supplier and won, but too late for the Lynx and the rest is history.

 

Gameboy and Wintel dominance was proof the world is full of idiots

 

They showed the CD yes BUT not before claiming it to be an actual machine like or compatible with so no excuse

[oky2000]

Ah the STe, a nice computer but too late and it's features were never really exploited by software developers. Of course I have always said if Atari could of released it by 1987 and the TT030 by 1988 who knows how things would of developed.

 

Atari under the Tramiels always claimed to be power without the price and it could of been that if (IMO) the STe is released in 1987 at the same price level of the Amiga. One thing I wish ATari would of done was added a 16mhz mode to it like they did the Mega STe. Now if Atari could of done this in 1987 with actual inventory of machines I think they keep their market share during the dram shortage. Good sales and market share keep software developers in the fold and the STe gets real development for the next few years until the Falcon030 is ready.

 

Making the ST available as a 16mhz integrated upgrade model should have countered the Amiga 500 launch. Oh and 32/512 colours in lores. £125-150 extra would be fine initially. RAM was expensive though.

 

Why?

16mhz = enough CPU power for games + extra colours means same graphics as Amiga games.

16mhz = Mac/PC annihilating performance for serious users crunching numbers.

[Retro Rogue]

Gameboy and Wintel dominance was proof the world is full of idiots

 

Irrelevant, GameBoy was more popular because of the price point at that early stage. Certainly not the technology, and the game library wasn't that large yet either. A same priced or lower priced Lynx would have been much more competitive, hence why they were pursuing that at the time. Likewise the Wintel comment makes no sense, wintel dominance didn't occur until Win95 - which was after Atari Corp. had already pulled out of the computer line.

3.1 simply gave a launch pad.

 

They showed the CD yes BUT not before claiming it to be an actual machine like or compatible with so no excuse

 

 

Can't follow your broken English, so I have not idea what you mean by "be an actual machine like". They showed a working CD-ROM for the ST line.

 

Once again your original characterization of pork pies and why some products were announced or show but never mass marketed, was inaccurate. Hence the accurate recounting of why some products and features were pursued only later to be dropped because of supply channel issues for pricing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oky2000]

Gameboy and Wintel dominance was proof the world is full of idiots

 

Irrelevant, GameBoy was more popular because of the price point at that early stage. Certainly not the technology, and the game library wasn't that large yet either. A same priced or lower priced Lynx would have been much more competitive, hence why they were pursuing that at the time. Likewise the Wintel comment makes no sense, wintel dominance didn't occur until Win95 - which was after Atari Corp. had already pulled out of the computer line.

3.1 simply gave a launch pad.

 

They showed the CD yes BUT not before claiming it to be an actual machine like or compatible with so no excuse

 

 

Can't follow your broken English, so I have not idea what you mean by "be an actual machine like". They showed a working CD-ROM for the ST line.

 

Once again your original characterization of pork pies and why some products were announced or show but never mass marketed, was inaccurate. Hence the accurate recounting of why some products and features were pursued only later to be dropped because of supply channel issues for pricing.

 

CD-I compatible/similar machine in the style of CDTV not just a CD-ROM peripheral, reported in New Computer Express. Nothing wrong with my English......just typing on a touchscreen and it overwrote "CD-I".

 

Pork pies=lies and so my points are 100% on target.

 

STbook laptop was probably the best rumor to come good, a fine machine.

 

Gameboy was huge, green and yellow screen and only £20 less than Gamegear. Had inferior games too with that blurry puke coloured screen. So people bought it for 8 extra hours battery life and 20 bucks less just for Tetris. Like I said Joe public where idiots.

[Retro Rogue]

CD-I compatible/similar machine in the style of CDTV not just a CD-ROM peripheral, reported in New Computer Express.

 

I showed the CD-ROM drive shown at COMDEX (hence the report). This was in '88, long before any CD-I machine (which first debuted in '91). And New Computer Express was not known for it's stellar journalism.

 

 

Pork pies=lies and so my points are 100% on target.

 

100% off target as already explained. You can keep ignoring facts and go off in your own pork pie fantasy, but items that were actually and honestly pursued but didn't make it because of resource issues to set an effective price point are not "lies". Lies would be more like putting out that a new product is going to be out and blow everyone else away and it turns out no development has actually been done yet and there is no product in existence and may never be - which they fully knew and hence lied. Magazines publishing their own speculation as official fact are also lies. There's a big difference between that and what I've been discussing.

 

STbook laptop was probably the best rumor to come good, a fine machine.

 

There goes that "rumor" thing again. Methinks you just like sensationalism, hence this troll like thread.

 

Gameboy was huge, green and yellow screen and only £20 less than Gamegear. Had inferior games too with that blurry puke coloured screen. So people bought it for 8 extra hours battery life and 20 bucks less just for Tetris. Like I said Joe public where idiots.

 

This is all pre-Game Gear. Game Gear didn't hit the US and Europe until '91, around the time Atari Corp. was relaunching with the previously discussed cost reduced Lynx II, which couldn't hit the low price point they wanted because of the LCD issue, hence the lawsuit.

 

Now unless you have something more accurate to add than rants based on magazine speculation and your own personal flights of fantasy interpretations, I don't really see a point in this convo. You'll just keep coming back with "I'm right, I'm right, pork pie, pork pie" and I'm busy with far more important things than to keep responding to that.

 

 

 

 

[FastRobPlus]

The funniest bit of unintentionally bad journalism I can remember was a caption in a magazine review that read:

 

“Tut, tut, the competition can’t hope to Ape the new Atari STs graphics!”

 

The screenshots above the caption were of the king tut mask and the gorilla demo files from the Amiga version of Deluxe Paint.

[Pilsner73]

Ah the STe, a nice computer but too late and it's features were never really exploited by software developers. Of course I have always said if Atari could of released it by 1987 and the TT030 by 1988 who knows how things would of developed.

 

Atari under the Tramiels always claimed to be power without the price and it could of been that if (IMO) the STe is released in 1987 at the same price level of the Amiga. One thing I wish ATari would of done was added a 16mhz mode to it like they did the Mega STe. Now if Atari could of done this in 1987 with actual inventory of machines I think they keep their market share during the dram shortage. Good sales and market share keep software developers in the fold and the STe gets real development for the next few years until the Falcon030 is ready.

 

Making the ST available as a 16mhz integrated upgrade model should have countered the Amiga 500 launch. Oh and 32/512 colours in lores. £125-150 extra would be fine initially. RAM was expensive though.

 

Why?

16mhz = enough CPU power for games + extra colours means same graphics as Amiga games.

16mhz = Mac/PC annihilating performance for serious users crunching numbers.

 

Would of been awesome in 1987 to be able to purchase the STe and it came stock with a 16mhz capable processor even if it was no different than what third parties (and Atari mega STe) it still gave a nice performance increase for small cost compared to stepping up to a 68020/68030 processor.

[oky2000]

@Wgungfu

 

What a load of misleading crap you write (as usual for you mate) because everything I have posted about has come from press releases sent to UK magazines and factual known issues. Once again like the A8 fanboys here that have overrun this place lately you pick and choose the irrelevant bits and just reply to mere sections.

 

Heaven forbid Atari didn't have the sun shining out of their collective MD's asses for all time from 70s to 90s.

 

I think you need to grow up and stop adding your own opinions as trying to palm them onto more intelligent people than you as facts. Everything secretly being worked on by EVERY company starts out as a rumour. Same with ST same with A1000 but clearly Atari's idea was to just pump the mags full of bullshit and then not release them. So what if you can attach a CD-ROM to an ST to load read-only expensive custom media at the time, they sold it as a new paradigm akin to the CDTV/CD-I machines not just some crappy useless add-on. Until CD-R or mega budget CD specific games come out it's all a waste of money. And as they clearly had no intention to build something like a CD-I/CDTV it was just a spoiler tactic.

 

Only and idiot would blame the magazines for the bullshit they were fed, funny how the Amiga 1000/500/2000/3000/4000/1200/600/CDTV/CD32/AAA rumours all turned out to be spot on then from Commodore in these same 'rubbish' magazines as you infer hmmmm perhaps your take on it is worth less than the wear and tear on my LCD screen as I read them...I think so.

 

I have explained the Gameboy vs PC-EngineGT/Gamegear/Lynx situation aptly but clearly you don't posses the intelligence to work out only a prick or kid on welfare would opt to save 20 bucks for that disgusting yellow and green puke screen monstrosity over battery life. Everyone in the world accepts this you obviously go against it but that only makes you look more of a prick compared to people involved at the top level of marketing/designing these things at the time. I couldn't give a shit about Lynx II to be honest it is neither hear nor there and has nothing to do with the fact most people are thick as shit....hence dumb yanks buying IBM PCs to play EGA games in the time of Amiga....we call them losers over here in Europe. You are an honourary member of that not so unusual group mate.

 

The only trolling here is you, trying to twist my words and conveniently missing the actual posts to start an argument. The facts are A500 had the exact specs that where sent out as rumours, so did Archimedes, but STE and CD-ROM did not.

 

*dumb baiting pricks like you are now ignored* but being as dumb as you are you will probably try and reply to this (and look even more stupid and up your own ass doing so lol)

[+poobah]

channeling atariksi are we?

 

One could say wgungfu was very involved back then. Better to believe someone who was there than someone who still is preaching the amiga religion.

[TwiliteZoner]

channeling atariksi are we?

 

One could say wgungfu was very involved back then. Better to believe someone who was there than someone who still is preaching the amiga religion.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it never ceases to amaze me when the chicken head guys come here to roost.

[FastRobPlus]

When I read stuff like this in old magazines I don't immediately think fanboyism was at work. I think the writers are just too lazy or inept to write with any depth or insight.

 

I you want to read crazy fanboyism, pick up an old copy of .info magazine.

[+wood_jl]

Come on, guys - just have a gentleman's disagreement on this.

[Retro Rogue]

Come on, guys - just have a gentleman's disagreement on this.

 

Unfortunately trolls will be trolls and hate even more being called on their trollness or being confronted by facts. Easy fix, just another person on the ignore list.

 

One could say wgungfu was very involved back then. Better to believe someone who was there than someone who still is preaching the amiga religion.

 

Just to clarify, I've never claimed to have been an Atari employee or have worked there. Rather, I'm a professional industry historian with access to extensive resources from the periods in question and to the people who actually were there. That includes internal documents, emails, engineering logs, direct interviews, etc., etc. I do not and have never gone by hypothesis, speculation, or the type of drivel that spawned this thread. Vetting all info is a must, and pulp magazines of the type mentioned are rarely a good source for accurate info about companies at the time without some sort of vetting process.

Edited April 15, 2011 by wgungfu

[atarian63]

@Wgungfu

 

What a load of misleading crap you write (as usual for you mate) because everything I have posted about has come from press releases sent to UK magazines and factual known issues. Once again like the A8 fanboys here that have overrun this place lately you pick and choose the irrelevant bits and just reply to mere sections.

 

Heaven forbid Atari didn't have the sun shining out of their collective MD's asses for all time from 70s to 90s.

 

I think you need to grow up and stop adding your own opinions as trying to palm them onto more intelligent people than you as facts. Everything secretly being worked on by EVERY company starts out as a rumour. Same with ST same with A1000 but clearly Atari's idea was to just pump the mags full of bullshit and then not release them. So what if you can attach a CD-ROM to an ST to load read-only expensive custom media at the time, they sold it as a new paradigm akin to the CDTV/CD-I machines not just some crappy useless add-on. Until CD-R or mega budget CD specific games come out it's all a waste of money. And as they clearly had no intention to build something like a CD-I/CDTV it was just a spoiler tactic.

 

Only and idiot would blame the magazines for the bullshit they were fed, funny how the Amiga 1000/500/2000/3000/4000/1200/600/CDTV/CD32/AAA rumours all turned out to be spot on then from Commodore in these same 'rubbish' magazines as you infer hmmmm perhaps your take on it is worth less than the wear and tear on my LCD screen as I read them...I think so.

 

I have explained the Gameboy vs PC-EngineGT/Gamegear/Lynx situation aptly but clearly you don't posses the intelligence to work out only a prick or kid on welfare would opt to save 20 bucks for that disgusting yellow and green puke screen monstrosity over battery life. Everyone in the world accepts this you obviously go against it but that only makes you look more of a prick compared to people involved at the top level of marketing/designing these things at the time. I couldn't give a shit about Lynx II to be honest it is neither hear nor there and has nothing to do with the fact most people are thick as shit....hence dumb yanks buying IBM PCs to play EGA games in the time of Amiga....we call them losers over here in Europe. You are an honourary member of that not so unusual group mate.

 

The only trolling here is you, trying to twist my words and conveniently missing the actual posts to start an argument. The facts are A500 had the exact specs that where sent out as rumours, so did Archimedes, but STE and CD-ROM did not.

 

*dumb baiting pricks like you are now ignored* but being as dumb as you are you will probably try and reply to this (and look even more stupid and up your own ass doing so lol)

Can you pack up your crap and take it elsewhere? Troll!

[Pilsner73]

The Commodore vs Atari debate started up in the late 1970s and still alive and well in the 21st century yet the companies are gone.

 

I saw an Atari CD-rom device years ago at a few Atari shows. From what I remember Atari was ready to roll but they couldn't get the right pricing from one of their suppliers. Atari has more than a few products that didn't make it out of prototype stage but then again where's my flying rocket car that I was promised since the 1950s by the automakers and the news media?

 

As to Commodore and the media surronding them never over promising stuff? I remember reading many times how the next version of the Amiga chipset was going to have everything in it including the kitchen sink and yet...

 

Both ATari and Commodore made good products but because of some poor management decisions coupled with both companies never having enough cash on hand to get through those bad decisions they are both gone.

[+orpheuswaking]

Where is Carmel_Andrews when you need the true facts....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kool kitty89]

Making the ST available as a 16mhz integrated upgrade model should have countered the Amiga 500 launch. Oh and 32/512 colours in lores. £125-150 extra would be fine initially. RAM was expensive though.

 

Why?

16mhz = enough CPU power for games + extra colours means same graphics as Amiga games.

16mhz = Mac/PC annihilating performance for serious users crunching numbers.

Modest upgrades to the SHIFTER like H/V scroll (maybe some really simple fill type acceleration operations -well short of the BLITTER), maybe even adding more bitplanes (and color registers or direct color+indexed hybrids), maybe a dual playfield mode (would have been really significant, especially if dual 16 color layers were supported -vs the Amiga only having 8 color layers with DPF -not counting sprites), and 12/16 MHz CPU options would have been great. (CPU upgrade and scrolling would have been the most foolproof by far, that and simple DMA sound support and/or a YM2203 replacing the 2151 -fully backwards compatible, but adding 3 4-op FM synth channels -exactly half of the MD's YM2612, especially with the talented Euro chiptune artists pushing it -Japanese obviously had some great examples, US was pretty weak on average with FM synth in the arcade/computers/consoles unfortunately)

 

Most of those enhancements should have been employed across the board as the base standard too rather than retaining the old models. (aside from high end features and a full shift to a much more powerful standard to counter VGA, more powerful CPUs, better sound, etc on PCs -the Amiga lagged there too, only aided by having more of a head start)

 

That, and they made the same Mistake Warner did by blocking easy expansion. (especially a cheap single expansion port in place of the cart slot for general expansion without having to solder internally)

Then they could easily roll that into the expansion supported on pizzabox/bigbox models. (they should have been pushing both of those sooner too, if not from day 1 -especially in the US)

 

 

 

 

 

Gameboy and Wintel dominance was proof the world is full of idiots

 

Irrelevant, GameBoy was more popular because of the price point at that early stage. Certainly not the technology, and the game library wasn't that large yet either. A same priced or lower priced Lynx would have been much more competitive, hence why they were pursuing that at the time. Likewise the Wintel comment makes no sense, wintel dominance didn't occur until Win95 - which was after Atari Corp. had already pulled out of the computer line.

3.1 simply gave a launch pad.

The price point was probably way down on the list, especially in the US.

It was much more due to advertizing, brand recognition (tying into market positioning), software support (with established 1st party franchises and 3rd party support), better funding in general (tying into all of that), and then the hardware advantages on top of that:

the biggest being the excellent battery life of up to 40 hours (real world figure for using good alkalines, though often closer to 20-30), so close to 10x that of the Lynx (with 2/3 the batteries), and then the compact size on top of that. (the price point came after those issues, and even if the Lynx HAD dropped below the GB's price, it would have still had all those other disadvantages -at least until they could start offering models with unlit reflective color screens, and then somehow boosted software and marketing support on top of that -lacking a 4th gen home console was a major problem too)

 

The Game Gear was significantly more popular than the Lynx in the US in spite of being more expensive, having even worse battery life and a weaker screen (and weaker hardware in many respects). It was simply marketed better and supported by a popular brand at the time. (the GG did poorly in Europe by comparison though)

Edited April 17, 2011 by kool kitty89