CGQuarterly Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 If you try to charge buyers for Paypal fees, that is another loophole for scammers to jack you over on. Paypal's terms forbid you from passing the fees on, so if you do it, you leave yourself vulnerable to jerks reporting you. If you are going to be charged paypal fees, just throw it in the "S&H" and forget about it. You don't have to say that it is for some paypal fees but people do have to buy tape, bubble wrap, envelopes, in some cases, the sticker labels for paypal and so on... So, charging a bit more isn't too out there anyway. It's a small percentage and could be thrown in there. I don't know how hard they are going on the gift pay thing, maybe I will stop using it like that myself. I mean, won't consider ever doing that. F Paypal...but I use 'em. I just hate having to explain this to clueless buyers. You get dinged on your shipping rating on ebay because the price you quoted them isn't the price on the label. I've had whiners like that. I'm positive the collective IQ of this planet is dropping precipitously When you print out the shipping label with paypal, don't tell it to print the cost of the postage. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari181 Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 If this is a gift payment by CC. someone had to pay the fees. Depends on the type of PP account you have I don't pay fees to give gift payments with my PP business account Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpendTooMuchOnAtari Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 When you print out the shipping label with paypal, don't tell it to print the cost of the postage. Chris Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+batari Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 I hate Paypal, but I still think they deserve a fee for their service, and I think it's dishonest to use gifts to circumvent this fee. I have absolutely no problem paying fees for their service or any other payment processor. I am not saying you had it coming or that the buyer is in the right because the buyer committed a crime while you essentially just violated Paypal's TOS. I always thought this would bite you in the ass someday but I thought it would come as a Paypal suspension. Regardless I hope it's a good lesson to all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.golden.ax Posted April 16, 2011 Author Share Posted April 16, 2011 Think about it logically for a minute. The sender is the only one violating the TOS if they are paying for goods and services via paypal. There is no way a seller could be held responsible for private communications that do not originate through Paypal/eBays message system. I can ask for a gift pay. Buyers as always can deny, quibble, refuse the sale, opt to pay the extra voluntarily (and often some do without being asked). I don't ask people to pay the fee, but do ask for gift pay. So far as I know paypal doesn't have the right to regulate my private communications still/yet. Specifically, I'm very frugal, and charge less for most products and services than perhaps I should. 90% of known forum traders gift pay because it is amongst friends... and I never even have to ask them to gift pay, they just do it. On other sites like NA it is expected (you get yelled at if you don't). Half the people I deal with on AA I'll buy from and sell from in the same month anyway. Essentially we are trading, and it keeps the record straight. Justification of that nature aside, newbie users that I don't trust are always asked for gift pay, and in the past I'd have outright refused a sale if they just didn't want to, and trust was in question. If paypal is going to actually INSURE a seller from being ripped off on a regular sale, then YES, they would not only deserve the 3% of my money, but they would get it. However they fall flat on their ass when it comes to protecting the legitimate seller AND buyers who have done nothing wrong. I've lost money on deals for traditional fee paid transactions both as buyer and seller when it came to outside eBay paypals. They specifically state that they do not protect gift pay (as a formality, as I said, they say they protect other deals, but then don't). By using gift you are specifically "taking your chances" as such there shouldn't be any chargbacks. It is paypals option. They created it. They have every right in the world to stop offering it as an option. Until then, people can pay how ever they choose. As the recipient, I'm sure as heck not sending it back if it comes in fee free. As for my 7800 controller mods. I'd like to see where the profit is. I'm making these things for my friends on AA because I'm a fan of 7800 and proline are crap controllers. If you look at my history for nes pad purchases I've been paying around $5 base maybe $5.50 each after tax or postage, even in lots. I pay $4.50 for the superpad extensions plus postage. Thirty or forty cents for resistors, solder, tips for the soldering iron, electric to run it. They take half hour to make. I'm charging actual postage. Trust me at $14.95 each there is no profit, ZERO. It is a philanthropic endeavor. THEY ARE A GIFT. The scam-tard that robbed me for a pair should be ashamed, and no paypal morality issue should cloud that fact. AX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 I hate Paypal, but I still think they deserve a fee for their service, and I think it's dishonest to use gifts to circumvent this fee. I have absolutely no problem paying fees for their service or any other payment processor. I am not saying you had it coming or that the buyer is in the right because the buyer committed a crime while you essentially just violated Paypal's TOS. I always thought this would bite you in the ass someday but I thought it would come as a Paypal suspension. Regardless I hope it's a good lesson to all But I thought there is still a fee, and that the SENDER pays the fee with "gift?" However, I'm surely less-experienced, so I'm still learning here. No fee (at all) for gift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svenski Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 I've only been hit with fees when sending gift payments when it is to someone in another country - payments from my PP balance every time. It makes sense they'd charge the sender for card funded gift payments as they (PP) will have transaction charges for processing the transaction in the first place. Anyway, I hope Ax. gets this sorted to his satisfaction. Fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osbo Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 I just went ahead and deleted my bank account information from Paypal. Eventhough I've been using the service since it started in 2000 and never had a problem, I worry about having my bank information in their servers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneAgeGamer Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 PayPal fees are comparable to credit card processing fees and the credit card processors offer even less protection. If someone does a charge back you must show the credit card company issuing the charge back SIGNED PROOF OF DELIVERY and you have only a few days to accomplish this. The system is obviously set up this way because they know most retailers do not require signed proof of delivery so then the retailers take the hit and not the banks. Signed delivery costs a few dollars more and isn't practical for most items. So people screwing you is the cost of doing business unfortunately. This is why this stuff is often the burden of the consumer in the end. If people steal a lot of a certain item then that item costs more to make up for it. I just recently had a "customer" have their bank attempt to reverse a PayPal transaction with an EverDrive. Thats a $120 item. PayPal contacted me and wanted everything I had to prove this order was filled and delivered. I gave them everything. They contacted me back and told me that I proved my case successfully and I they refunded the money back to me. Personally I feel much more protection when I have a PayPal dispute than an actual credit card dispute. That being said I have gotten quite a few more PayPal disputes than credit card disputes. Mostly from international customers who chose First Class mail and didn't get their item in a week so they file a dispute. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpendTooMuchOnAtari Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Your last statement above is the reason I don't like to ship outside the US. I do for AA members on occasion which is mainly to Canada but on ebay, US only for me. I also tend to buy from the US only as well. It's just hard to get the Zellers carts I'm always looking for here in the states unless from another collector. I like me some Zellers, the artwork is kooky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneAgeGamer Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Your last statement above is the reason I don't like to ship outside the US. I do for AA members on occasion which is mainly to Canada but on ebay, US only for me. I also tend to buy from the US only as well. It's just hard to get the Zellers carts I'm always looking for here in the states unless from another collector. I like me some Zellers, the artwork is kooky. Shipping outside of US is a risk, but honestly I have shipped thousands of orders internationally and only have ever had problems with a handful. About 20 to 25% of our sales are international so there's no way we would ever stop selling international. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarigal Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I used to moderate on another message board (nothing to do with gaming) with a very heavily trafficked "marketplace" section, much bigger than AA's. Eventually we had to rewrite the rules and state that no gift payments were allowed, because sketchy buyers were pulling this trick over and over. Unfortunately, some people know how to play the PP rules and take full advantage of that. I'm sorry this happened to you, golden.ax. I saw it many, many times at that other board, and much worse too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.golden.ax Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Paypal decided in the favor of the buyer, despite my tracking, his emails saying he got the goods, and the credit card company saying the case was closed and they were NOT charging me back... in addition to the disputed amount I was charged a $20 CHARGE BACK FEE. I was defrauded 150%. All Mr.Phil can do is write me asinine letters saying how poorly I run my business and should-oughting me to death. This guy is a scammer in my book. I WANT MY MONEY BACK, OR MY PRODUCTS BACK. AX 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsychoKittyNet Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 What a shitbag, I've never had anything but pleasent transactions with Ax, and for this selfish punk to rub it in your face? Unbelieveable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peedenmark7 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 cash is king... unfortunately lots of people have been bitten by the "too lazy to go to the post office for a money order" bug these days. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumbee74 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I hate to hear about your experience. I have only bought one thing so far from AA member, but have been extremely happy with the process. I would hate for things like this ruin a good thing here. I collected retro computers and such and enjoy atari age marketplace very much, just on limited income right now, but hope to make many deals with members in the future. Again hate to hear about you experience and wish something more could be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svenski Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Ax, Who is this guy? was he from ebay or here on AA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gophilipgo Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Someone did a charge back on a gift payment to my paypal. I've never seen one of these before, or the results. Paypal reversed out a transfer of funds to my bank. -=taking back money from my bank that has already been transfered=- This has caused my mortgage to be NSF. (AA ID gophilipgo) had no right since he got both of his products. The verbal abuse was ridiculous leading up to his action. When you mess with someone's life over your pathetic need to abuse others, you cross the line. USPS.COM 420606479101969010386864822391 420606479101969010386927637047 AX I would have replied to this thread sooner, but I only just saw it. Paypal may have reversed the charges against goldenax, but I did not receive those funds. Suggesting that I did is an outright lie. I fully admit that I opened a case against goldenax. However, I did not do so through paypal. I did so through my credit card company. (Paypal does not allow you to open a case on a "gift" payment. Something I was not aware of.) After my credit card company contacted paypal, paypal then opened a case. After I finally received my controllers, I cancelled the claim with my credit card company and I also cancelled the claim through paypal. I don't see how I can be held liable for anything after that. I didn't open a case against goldenax for some willy nilly reason either. I'm going to copy and paste our messages back and forth, so atariage users can decide for themselves whether or not I overreacted because goldenax's public bashing and use of my name is completely unwarranted and petty. Messages will follow this post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gophilipgo Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 (edited) Sent Wed Mar 9, 2011 10:48 PM from gophilipgo Hi. I just busted out my old Atari 7800, and I'm in need of two controllers. If you still have two left, I'd like to buy them from you! Let me know. Sent Wed Mar 9, 2011 11:09 PM from goldenax Sure, would you like the standard grey, or any cosmetics like dye or LED? Sent Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:23 AM from gophilipgo Standard grey is fine! Do you take paypal? Sent Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:38 AM from goldenax Yes sire, the total is $39.40 for a pair, paypal is [removed] I really appreciate it if you can send the payment type as personal "gift." Please be sure to send me your address here. Sent Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:52 PM from gophilipgo Great. My address is: [removed for obvious reasons] I'll be sending payment once I get home from work. I'll mark it as "gift". It'll come from [removed] Sent Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:51 PM from gophilipgo Just paid you. Let me know when you send them. Thanks! Sent Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:54 PM :thumbsup: Continued on next post... Edited June 29, 2011 by gophilipgo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gophilipgo Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Sent Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:54 PM from goldenax :thumbsup: A full week has now passed and no word whatsoever from goldenax. Sent Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:14 PM from gophilipgo Hi. Just wondering if you've mailed the controllers yet. Could you let me know? Thanks. To goldenax's credit, I jumped the gun. When I checked the mail, one controller had arrived. Sent Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:16 PM from gophilipgo Actually, I just checked the mail. Only one was sent! Could you doublecheck your stock to verify this? Sent Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:27 PM from goldenax Sorry about that, I'll send another one. Sent Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:37 PM from gophilipgo No biggie. Thank you for your honesty. Continued on next post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gophilipgo Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Eleven days have now passed since I let goldenax know about only receiving one controller and he has yet to respond, so I send a message inquiring about it. Sent Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:42 PM from gophilipgo Hi. Have you sent the second controller yet? I still haven't received it. If you have, could you please send the tracking number? If not, could you send it ASAP? I'm going out of town next week and I'll be gone for three weeks. Sent Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:00 PM from goldenax I was out of town for several days. Just got back. I can ship it in the next 1 - 2 days (it would arrive Saturday or Monday) or if you want I can mail it in time for your return. Let me know. Sent Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:05 PM from gophilipgo Shipping tomorrow or the next day would be preferable. I'm not leaving town until the end of next week, so it should arrive by then. Continued on next post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gophilipgo Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Another week passes and still no controller or communication from goldenax. It has now been one month since I paid him, so yeah, I was getting testy. Sent Thu Apr 7, 2011 5:25 PM from gophilipgo Okay, at this point, I can't help but think you've intentionally deceived me. I still have yet to receive the second controller, and I've just realized that paypal payments made as gifts can't be challenged. Luckily for me, I have a very good credit card company. If I haven't received a refund for half of the money I sent to you by tomorrow, I'll be contacting my credit card company. Additionally, I will warn every buyer on this site about you. I have taken screen shots of the messages between us, and I took a video of the package you sent which very clearly shows that only one controller could have fit into the envelope. I did no wrong to you, so please, do the right thing, and refund half of my money. Sent Thu Apr 7, 2011 9:24 PM from goldenax Dude, your controller is on the way. I'm not refunding anything. It was an oversight, I went out of town, came back sick and with a broken foot. I still took care of it. Give it a few days, and take a few deep breaths. Peace. Two more days have passed, and I still haven't received the controller. To be safe, I opened a claim with my credit card company. (I needed to do so within 30 days or I wouldn't have any recourse for my money if the goods hadn't been sent.) On April 12, I finally received the second controller. Sent Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:06 AM from goldenax You're welcome. Sent Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:31 AM from gophilipgo Uh huh. So I pay you for two controllers as a gift at your request. You send me only one controller. I'm not unreasonable about that. But then you not only fail to send me the second controller in a timely manner, but tell me twice, TWICE, that it is on its way when in fact it wasn't. Then you utterly failed to communicate the reason that you couldn't send it. I guess I should have just twiddled my thumbs and assumed that not receiving an item which I paid for over 30 days ago and asked about repeatedly was entirely reasonable. Then, miraculously, when I finally threaten to challenge payment with my credit card company (and that wasn't an empty threat btw), you finally send the controller despite your broken foot which, in your own words, previously prevented you from sending it. And I'm supposed to thank you for that? How about this instead? You're a dipshit. Get out of your mother's basement and learn a thing or two about responsibility. If you ever find yourself wondering why the air around you always smells like shit, it's because you have your head lodged really far up your ass. I'd suggest you remove it. Regards Yes, harsh, but I was pissed, and I feel I had a right to be. Continued on next post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gophilipgo Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 (edited) Sent Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:08 PM from goldenax I sent you the controllers, yet my funds have been reversed. You need to contact your bank and paypal immediately and return my money. These were fan made for the good people at Atari Age one at a time, with no profit. They were not mass produced, sold by some faceless store. I'm not Amazon, or eBay. You have no right to scam me out of the funds you owe. Cut the verbal assaults and credit card reversals and pay up. I'm giving this three days for a resolution. If I don't have my money by then I'm contacting www.ic3.gov http://www.ag.state.il.us and http://www.cityofchi...e_stations.html Sent Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:22 PM from gophilipgo [This was my final message.] I cancelled the chargeback with my credit card company a couple of days after I received the second controller from you. And I initially requested the chargeback BEFORE you actually shipped the second controller. (I wasn't bluffing about doing it.) Nothing at all illegal with that. Maybe paypal is slow to receive this info. I'd take it up with them because I've already done my part to reverse the charges. Future word of advice: No Attorney General is going to take you seriously if you received money as a "gift" in exchange for a tangible item. That's not a gift; it's goods, and it's illegal to ask for a "gift" payment on such items; not to mention deceptive. (Had I known I could not get a refund for paying "gift" with paypal, I would have never agreed to send you money because outside of asking for a chargeback from the cc company, which is a pain in the ass, I'd have no recourse to get my item or my money back.) If you want buyers to respect you, be honest and accept paypal payments as "goods", because that's what they are. If your reasons for accepting a payment as "gift" are because you don't want to pay paypal fees--it's also illegal to ask buyers to do so--then just charge a few dollars more, so you can eat those costs yourself. Most buyers won't have a problem with that. I wouldn't have. Have a nice day. Paypal never returned those funds to me. My hunch is that they kept the money for the exact reasons I stated in my last message to goldenax. That is, he was misusing Paypal by asking for gift payments for items that are actually goods. (I learned during this ordeal that this is in violation of their policy.) I agree that that's bullshit, but it's Paypal's policy, not mine. Maybe he didn't realize this policy, but I don't see how that's my fault. I paid for two controllers which I did eventually receive. I never received that money back because I cancelled both claims. In other words, I paid $40 already, and I didn't receive that $40 back. So is it really fair of me to pay goldenax twice here? I had no idea Paypal was going to keep his money, and I'm not the one who violated any policies. Had he done a better job of communicating with me, I would have been more than patient. During this ordeal, I know he was using the internet despite being sick and broken-footed because he had been posting on this forum. So he could have communicated with me. Posting my full name was thoroughly uncalled for, as were the veiled threats against me. Again, I am sorry goldenax lost his money to paypal, but I'm not going to apologize for my actions. I don't think they were wrong given the circumstances. Edited June 29, 2011 by gophilipgo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gophilipgo Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 (edited) P.S. My ebay id is thunderjazz. I have nearly flawless feedback. In over 10 years, I've sold thousands of items, and I've received only one negative feedback. Just one in that entire time. The idea that I'm a scammer is completely baseless. http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=thunderjazz&ftab=AllFeedback Edited June 29, 2011 by gophilipgo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gophilipgo Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Paypal provides no seller protections for gifted payments. My advice, don't take gifted payments. By accepting gifted payments you waive your right to contest a chargeback. Frankly, gifted payments are for cash transfers only. You shouldn't be accepting them for transactions involving merchandise. If this would have been a regular purchase transaction, it would have been a simple matter to contest the chargeback by providing a DC# showing proof of delivery. The loss you've taken in this one instance probably exceeds a month's worth of fees you'd save by using gifted payments. Buyers too should insist on "purchase" transactions because there are no provisions for the buyer to dispute a transaction either should the seller decided not to send your merchandise. Thank you, Christophero. This is exactly what I pointed out to him. Couldn't agree more. Anyway, enough posting from me. I'll leave this thread now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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