Does the controller you use matter?

[HatefulGravey]

As my collection of 2600 games has grown I have started picking up other items for the 2600. The first thing I started looking for was other controllers. I don't have tons of them or anything, but I have maybe 8 or 9 different contollers for the 2600 and I was playing games last night and thinking about this. Does the controller you use make a diffence really? I think it really does. There are games that play better with differecnt controllers and if you are going to make a level field to play games for high scores should you also limit what controller you use?

 

Say you are trying to break the world record for Pac-Man with a CX-40 and I'm trying with a Slick Stick. I probably have an advantage. I know some peoeple will like the CX-40 over the Slick Stick (though I can't imagine why) and therefor play better with it, but I think most people would play better with a better stick. Should it always be up to personal feel for a stick, or should world records be attempted with only the CX-40? In the arcade world record world original equipment is a must. Should it be so in the Atari 2600 world?

 

For example I got a Wico Command with ball top in a trade last night, and that thing was GREAT for shooters. I played a ton better with it then anything else I have tried with.

 

What do you guys think? What controller do you play most often with? What games do you play with a controller you don't play any other game with?

[keithbk]

I'm a Slik Stik man all the way.

[bohoki]

i feel the challenge should be with the game so one should be able to use whatever controller suits them

there maybe should be a limitation on unfair advantage controllers like ones with autofire and macros but with the atari i cant think of many games where an autofire would help

 

i wonder about some of the arcade challenges some machines come with rubber grommet wicos some with happ spring some are microswitch some are leaf switch same with the buttons and operators have replaced parts over the years so its hard to say what the oem equip was

 

as to 2600 i like the wicos but mostly the championship pro

[keilbaca]

I am quickly loving the Gemstick.

 

I still need to work out the kinks out of my CX-40 modded with micro switches instead of the leaf switches it uses.

 

The Slik Stik is good, but the Tac-2 gives me terrible hand cramps for some odd reason.

 

My favorite stick (until I fix up the modded CX-40) is the Flashback 2 joystick.

[HatefulGravey]

I am quickly loving the Gemstick.

 

I still need to work out the kinks out of my CX-40 modded with micro switches instead of the leaf switches it uses.

 

The Slik Stik is good, but the Tac-2 gives me terrible hand cramps for some odd reason.

 

My favorite stick (until I fix up the modded CX-40) is the Flashback 2 joystick.

 

Yeah, I didn't include the mirco-switch mod for the CX-40 I posted a while back just because it is a mod, and that clearly shouldn't be legal in a world record attempt. In the HSCs here it isn't so much a big deal as its all friendly. What problems are you having with your mod? All the ones I have done so far as still working great almost instantly. I do love the micro-switch modded controllers though, they are smooth and respond faster then anything else I have seen.

 

I just got a Slick Stick last night, I didn't understand just how small it was until then, but it is very nice indeed. I have had no expierence with a Tac 2, but I got a Tac three last night as well, and it is very different. Almost too loose for me. That might just be mine, I don't know they are all like that. The Gem Sticks are pretty nice too, the button on those is really nice. Over all of the non-modded controllers I like the Wico Command best so far. There are meny I haven't tried though.

[keilbaca]

Oh I never got around to checking it out, the fire button is getting stuck when I press left. I think I need to swap around the switch for the left.

[Rik]

The CX-40 is the best I've ever used for any game.I've got most of the popular stiks like the Wico's, and to be honest can't see why they're so highly praised.Simple, light, just the right size, fits great in hand, responsive, the CX-40 rules supreme for me.It's all a matter of personal taste though.I just found a Flashback 2 with two nice new CX-40'S, and they did a fine job of re-creating them.

[zylon]

Currently, I favor cx-40 without rubber boot. 2nd choice is 7800 proline sticks.

[Gorfy]

I found the Flashback 2 joystyicks to be very fragile. Broke 2 in the same week My older cx-40's are much more durable.

[keithbk]

I've had my Slik Stiks since probably 1980 (30 years now) and have only had to take them apart to clean the contact points. Easiest joystick in the world to repair, in my opinion, and incredibly reliable.

 

If you are rough on joysticks, you may want to reinforce the interior plastic piece that holds the 4 contact points with a zip-tie, just to make it more unlikely that some rough play wont crack the plastic.

[HatefulGravey]

Currently, I favor cx-40 without rubber boot. 2nd choice is 7800 proline sticks.

 

Funny joke, no one on this planet could possibly like the 7800 proline well enough to put it 2nd on a list of controllers they like. That is in my opinion that worst controller ever. I couldn't even play my 7800 for around a year until I got Ax to make me a NES pad for it.

[zylon]

Currently, I favor cx-40 without rubber boot. 2nd choice is 7800 proline sticks.

 

Funny joke, no one on this planet could possibly like the 7800 proline well enough to put it 2nd on a list of controllers they like. That is in my opinion that worst controller ever. I couldn't even play my 7800 for around a year until I got Ax to make me a NES pad for it.

I chose that one as 2nd since that's what I switch to when my hand cramps up. I find it's less painful over long games. cx40 is still first choice. I didn't mention control pads since joysticks were the main discussion. If we're including pads, I'll revise my list.

1- cx40 without boot only

2- sega 3-button Gen control pad

3- SMS pad

4- 7800 proline

5- SMS control stick with top knob removed only.

[SeaGtGruff]

What do you guys think?

I think if a contest is "for real," there should be a rule that everyone must use the same type of controller, otherwise some contestants might have an unfair advantage over the others because they're using "better" controllers. But I also think this rule should be clearly stated ahead of time, before the contestants enter the contest, so the contestants can practice with the "right" controller. Otherwise people might practice with their preferred controllers, only to discover (upon arriving at the contest) that they won't be allowed to use their preferred controllers, which could negatively affect their performance.

 

Atari did this in the FireWorld contest-- everyone had to play with Atari-supplied CX40 joysticks. Unfortunately, this wasn't "advertised" ahead of time, and several contestants were upset about it, because apparently they had expected to be able to play with their favorite joysticks.

 

Think about it. If a company were having a contest for a particular arcade game, would they allow contestants to play the arcade game in a cabinet that had been modified to replace the game's controller with a different type of controller, or with a "better" version of its controller? I don't think so.

 

On the other hand, if a contest is "for fun," I think it should depend on either the person or persons conducting or refereeing the contest, or the group of people participating in the contest (if it is a "club" where members can vote on the rules). But I also think it could depend on other rules of the contest, such as whether it's acceptable to play the game in an emulator. After all, not everyone who's playing the game in an emulator is going to have a Stelladaptor.

 

Michael

 

 

 

[the.golden.ax]

Currently, I favor cx-40 without rubber boot. 2nd choice is 7800 proline sticks.

 

Funny joke, no one on this planet could possibly like the 7800 proline well enough to put it 2nd on a list of controllers they like. That is in my opinion that worst controller ever. I couldn't even play my 7800 for around a year until I got Ax to make me a NES pad for it.

 

 

Someone with really big hands could enjoy the proline I THINK. Logic: the flashback proline mini controllers are actually nice. They are just smaller. I think Atari had a good design and it was made way too big. Look at Xbox duke.

 

That said, thanks for buying my NES pad. Glad someone is enjoying it. Unlike gophilgo who stole a pair.

 

AX

[Schizophretard]

This guy had an unfair advantage at becoming the greatest electric guitarist in history because he got to use a Fender Stratocaster with his teeth, behind his head, upside down, and strung for left-hand playing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_n_P40sEaM

[HatefulGravey]

I chose that one as 2nd since that's what I switch to when my hand cramps up. I find it's less painful over long games. cx40 is still first choice. I didn't mention control pads since joysticks were the main discussion. If we're including pads, I'll revise my list.

1- cx40 without boot only

2- sega 3-button Gen control pad

3- SMS pad

4- 7800 proline

5- SMS control stick with top knob removed only.

 

I used the word controller in the title and not again there after so my bad. I guess the question is better asked if we include anyway you can control the system so your list would be completely valid in this conversation as far as I'm concerned.

 

The Sega pads are really nice for the 2600 though I think I like the 6 button better. When I first found out they would work with the 2600 at all I was a very happy person. Such a nice thing for Sega to do for us (because I'm sure it was done intentionally).

 

 

Think about it. If a company were having a contest for a particular arcade game, would they allow contestants to play the arcade game in a cabinet that had been modified to replace the game's controller with a different type of controller, or with a "better" version of its controller? I don't think so.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

 

Someone with really big hands could enjoy the proline I THINK. Logic: the flashback proline mini controllers are actually nice. They are just smaller. I think Atari had a good design and it was made way too big. Look at Xbox duke.

 

That said, thanks for buying my NES pad. Glad someone is enjoying it. Unlike gophilgo who stole a pair.

 

AX

 

I have never tried the pro line for 2600 games to be honest. It was terrible for me with 7800 games so when I had the option I swapped to 2600 controllers. My biggest problem with the controller is I can't hold it and press both buttons with any real control while moving the stick. Seems like that is important in my controller. Over all I'm glad the NES pad idea took over before the 7800 pro line could become the controller format of the future. Imagine what the modern stuff would have looked like if the pro line had been more popular...

 

And you are very welcome. I mean I didn't know there was a free option so I guess I missed out. Thank you for making them. I can finally play my 7800 and that is boss.

[Cynicaster]

My feeling is that in any competition on a console-based game, the player should be free to choose a controller. It's like in baseball, you're free to pick which bat you want to use. Of course, the caveat would be that the controller can't provide anything other than the basic translation of the player's movements onto the screen--no "helper" features allowed (such as auto-fire). Going back to the baseball analogy, using auto-fire in a shooter would be akin to corking your bat.

 

There's no question that some controllers work much better than others for certain games (I defy anybody to break 250,000 on Frostbite using The Boss), but anybody who is into Atari enough to enter a competition and scrutinize the rules surely must have access to a CX-40 and, if their skills are worth a damn, should be able to put their money where their mouth is using that.

 

The natural counterpoint to this would be the arcade game argument, because those games are hard-wired with specific controllers. To that I say console gaming and arcade gaming are different worlds altogether and should be subject to different considerations. Having the ability to buy all kinds of different controllers for home consoles has been a part of the home gaming landscape since pretty much the very beginning. I'm pretty sure you didn't need a certified joystick to earn an Activision patch.

 

Run what ya brung, no excuses.

[keilbaca]

What do you guys think?

I think if a contest is "for real," there should be a rule that everyone must use the same type of controller, otherwise some contestants might have an unfair advantage over the others because they're using "better" controllers. But I also think this rule should be clearly stated ahead of time, before the contestants enter the contest, so the contestants can practice with the "right" controller. Otherwise people might practice with their preferred controllers, only to discover (upon arriving at the contest) that they won't be allowed to use their preferred controllers, which could negatively affect their performance.

 

Atari did this in the FireWorld contest-- everyone had to play with Atari-supplied CX40 joysticks. Unfortunately, this wasn't "advertised" ahead of time, and several contestants were upset about it, because apparently they had expected to be able to play with their favorite joysticks.

 

Think about it. If a company were having a contest for a particular arcade game, would they allow contestants to play the arcade game in a cabinet that had been modified to replace the game's controller with a different type of controller, or with a "better" version of its controller? I don't think so.

 

On the other hand, if a contest is "for fun," I think it should depend on either the person or persons conducting or refereeing the contest, or the group of people participating in the contest (if it is a "club" where members can vote on the rules). But I also think it could depend on other rules of the contest, such as whether it's acceptable to play the game in an emulator. After all, not everyone who's playing the game in an emulator is going to have a Stelladaptor.

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with this at all. That's like telling people in a SSF4 tournament that they have to all play on an Xbox 360 wireless controller, not an arcade stick.

 

You play with what you are the most comfortable with. As long as things aren't added internally (auto fire, for example), there shouldn't be an issue on which controller to use.

[the.golden.ax]

Some people have bigger or smaller hands, less fingers, or more fingers... to make it even shouldn't everyone who is playing with the same controller be neurologically connected to Bruce Willis' Surrogate and play through his hands using only the power of their minds? where does it end?

 

AX

[HatefulGravey]

I don't agree with this at all. That's like telling people in a SSF4 tournament that they have to all play on an Xbox 360 wireless controller, not an arcade stick.

 

You play with what you are the most comfortable with. As long as things aren't added internally (auto fire, for example), there shouldn't be an issue on which controller to use.

 

In the larger fighting tournaments players are given a list of controllers they are allowed to play with. It is restricted. A player could play with whatever they like most from a list.

 

Its kind of like saying you want to play in the NFL but that you want a smaller football. Too bad. If you want to play for a certain title sometimes you have to play by certain rules. I play Street Fighter best on an arcade machine, you might play better on a home console, we can't both have what we are best at so there have to be rules to make it even. Sometimes the rules favor person A over person B but the rules are fair because everyone has to play by the same rules.

 

I used to play collectable card games a lot. I would travel to events and play in big tournaments. There were always rules about what you could and couldn't use. I played great with things I wasn't allowed to use in those tournaments so I have to decide if I want to play without those things or if I would rather not play at all.

 

The point is restricting what can be used is a very standard thing in compititions of every kind. It creates equal ground when everyone has to play by a set of rules instead of playing in a "whatever works best for you" way.

[Rik]

I found the Flashback 2 joystyicks to be very fragile. Broke 2 in the same week My older cx-40's are much more durable.

Really?I haven't opened them up to see what's inside.I wouldn't doubt it, the way they make things today, made NOT to last.

[Cynicaster]

 

The point is restricting what can be used is a very standard thing in compititions of every kind. It creates equal ground when everyone has to play by a set of rules instead of playing in a "whatever works best for you" way.

 

You're right, insofar as you're referring to things that, based on reasonably objective criteria, give people an unfair edge. But as long as we eliminate from consideration "performance enhancing" features like auto-fire, how can anybody say definitively that joystick A is any better or worse than joystick B? It's entirely up to personal preference.

 

Sure, it's easy to make the point that a Slik Stik is clearly more suitable and precise than a big sloppy Wico for a game like, say, Frogger. Which is precisely why anybody who is serious about competing at Frogger would not use the sloppy Wico. It's a self-correcting problem.

 

You're saying equal ground is the goal, well then, if player A has spent the last 25-30 years mastering Megamania with the Slik Stik and player B has done the same using the CX-40, and one or the other is mandated as the "regulation joystick" for a competition, then how is that anything close to equal ground?

Edited April 15, 2011 by Cynicaster

[HatefulGravey]

You're saying equal ground is the goal, well then, if player A has spent the last 25-30 years mastering Megamania with the Slik Stik and player B has done the same using the CX-40, and one or the other is mandated as the "regulation joystick" for a competition, then how is that anything close to equal ground?

 

I'm not really standing on anyone thing. I started the thread to get a general opinion on the matter. There have to be some rules however. In a prior post baseball was used as an example. You can use any bat that fits a list of rules. It really just depends on what the rules are. If we should all be able to use what we are best with so long as there are no turbo button type things then I can build a customer controller with arcade parts connected to a CX-40 board and get some amazing results just off the hardware upgrade. Is that ok too?

 

I don't know if there are rules for TwinGalaxies (as I personally have some problems with the way they do things I stay away from them) or what they are, I was just wondering what people thought they should be.

[Lord Helmet]

I think the choice of controller totally makes a difference. I use a modded RSI Space Invaders trick almost exclusevly now. Best 2600/7800/CVstick ever IMHO.

[Schizophretard]

You're saying equal ground is the goal, well then, if player A has spent the last 25-30 years mastering Megamania with the Slik Stik and player B has done the same using the CX-40, and one or the other is mandated as the "regulation joystick" for a competition, then how is that anything close to equal ground?

 

I'm not really standing on anyone thing. I started the thread to get a general opinion on the matter. There have to be some rules however. In a prior post baseball was used as an example. You can use any bat that fits a list of rules. It really just depends on what the rules are. If we should all be able to use what we are best with so long as there are no turbo button type things then I can build a customer controller with arcade parts connected to a CX-40 board and get some amazing results just off the hardware upgrade. Is that ok too?

 

I don't know if there are rules for TwinGalaxies (as I personally have some problems with the way they do things I stay away from them) or what they are, I was just wondering what people thought they should be.

 

I think a controller like you describe above would be okay. You might be good at using that controller but I might suck at it. If everyone uses the controller they are best at then everything is fair. As long as the controller isn't part of the competition then I consider it part of the players. If the controller is part of the competition then I consider it part of the game. For an example, if the competition is about who is the best at Missile Command then the controller they choose is a part of the players. If the competition is about who is the best at Missile Command with a trackball then the controller is part of the game. One way the controller is what you are playing with and the other way the controller is what is being played.