José Pereira Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 (edited) Hi, I posted about this things here one or two years ago about PMs. colouring on Head Over Heels. I would like to return with this... We all know that A8 would move/change xPos. of PMs. in colour clocks but if 'Bordered lines' of soft sprites are PF1 (darkest colou) using PRIOR1 will be Darkest PMs. Luminances and mostly of the times will almost no seen with the PF1 Gfxs. colour. And as mostly are Z80 32 wide with 192 scanlines high seems there no 'cycle problem' to add PMs. and soft sprites on Walls (there's not even soo many things moving on screen at once...) Just start with a simple one: C64 BOBBY BEARING: And what it could look in A8: (without and with some different artifactings) But I have a great Arcade one to show and with a Construction Set... I have all Gfxs./Sprites,... Are anyone interested in coding MARBLE MADNESS this way? José Pereira. Edited May 18, 2011 by José Pereira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Hi, I posted about this things here one or two years ago about PMs. colouring on Head Over Heels. I would like to return with this... We all know that A8 would move/change xPos. of PMs. in colour clocks but if 'Bordered lines' of soft sprites are PF1 (darkest colou) using PRIOR1 will be Darkest PMs. Luminances and mostly of the times will almost no seen with the PF1 Gfxs. colour. And as mostly are Z80 32 wide with 192 scanlines high seems there no 'cycle problem' to add PMs. and soft sprites on Walls (there's not even soo many things moving on screen at once...) Just start with a simple one: C64 BOBBY BEARING: And what it could look in A8: (without and with some different artifactings) But I have a great Arcade one to show and with a Construction Set... I have all Gfxs./Sprites,... Are anyone interested in coding MARBLE MADNESS this way? José Pereira. Hm. Sad news, the A8 has no black Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Hi, I posted about this things here one or two years ago about PMs. colouring on Head Over Heels. I would like to return with this... We all know that A8 would move/change xPos. of PMs. in colour clocks but if 'Bordered lines' of soft sprites are PF1 (darkest colou) using PRIOR1 will be Darkest PMs. Luminances and mostly of the times will almost no seen with the PF1 Gfxs. colour. And as mostly are Z80 32 wide with 192 scanlines high seems there no 'cycle problem' to add PMs. and soft sprites on Walls (there's not even soo many things moving on screen at once...) Just start with a simple one: C64 BOBBY BEARING: And what it could look in A8: (without and with some different artifactings) But I have a great Arcade one to show and with a Construction Set... I have all Gfxs./Sprites,... Are anyone interested in coding MARBLE MADNESS this way? José Pereira. Hm. Sad news, the A8 has no black Ha, Ha, Ha!... Yes and if get some C64 Emulators then C64 also don't have Black. If it's what I think then you're saying that our (0,0) it's a very,very darkest gray but not Black? It's this... O.k., but on my T.V./Monitor it seems Black. (Probably now you will also say that we don't have White, and I can agree with you as (0,14) it's not even the most Ligher gray on A8 Pallete. Indeed the most similar to White it's (0,15) that are only available in 256colours GTIA Modes) But I was refering to the PMs. that over PF1 gets PMcolour with the PF1 luminance if using PRIOR1 (PRIOR0 and you get different, yes, you can get 3different colours same Line with the same PM : (This screen it's something I create and a similar looking with a gameplay I invented... and it will have that POKEY Music Bars on the sides... I count with you to do the Music. It will be called ARKANOID2PONG (Arknoid to Pong) But return to this Topic MARBLE MADNESS: José Pereira. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 A8 Artifacting to have solid colours on the Walls: José Pereira. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Yes and if get some C64 Emulators then C64 also don't have Black.If it's what I think then you're saying that our (0,0) it's a very,very darkest gray but not Black? LOL. Many People still seem not to be able to adjust their TVsets . That's why emulators seem to use greys for Black. Black always has to be the darkest colour. That's what the button "brightness" means It's built into TV sets and Monitors to adjust it to the related illumination of the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 (edited) A8 Artifacting to have solid colours on the Walls: José Pereira. ...Sick! Looks pretty promising, considering that my visual reference is MameUI64's output of MarbleMad. Pretty impressing if you can actually get that going somewhere, in terms of actual game/playability/visual dynamics (acceptable X/Y scrolling, etc.). Cheers, F. Edited May 18, 2011 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Yes and if get some C64 Emulators then C64 also don't have Black.If it's what I think then you're saying that our (0,0) it's a very,very darkest gray but not Black? LOL. Many People still seem not to be able to adjust their TVsets . That's why emulators seem to use greys for Black. Black always has to be the darkest colour. That's what the button "brightness" means It's built into TV sets and Monitors to adjust it to the related illumination of the room. But once and for all: "It's my Monitor or it's A8 that don't have really a Black colour?" Answer please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 A8 Artifacting to have solid colours on the Walls: José Pereira. ...Sick! Looks pretty promising, considering that my visual reference is MameUI64's output of MarbleMad. Pretty impressing if you can actually get that going somewhere, in terms of actual game/playability/visual dynamics (acceptable X/Y scrolling, etc.). Cheers, F. Thanks... It looks promising if like many of the other 'dozens' of Games/screens/Engines,... that I get!... Problem is always the same: Get a coder... But if more I post many more are probably to get some of them coding Greets. José Pereira. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 For anyone interested in study and get Artifacting: -> CLEAN no Artifacts: -> Artifacting (some cells tries at the Bottom): I am trying to see how many and different I can get... The '.g2f' and '.xex' Files of this: Artifacting.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 It would be nice if you could find a (disassembled & well commented) source code of the NES-version of Marble Madness. Maybe a port would be possible then, as the NES is also a 6502-based machine. Maybe only a few steps are needed to port it. The background gfx engine could be optimized then, as the inferior scrolling system & code of the NES can be bypassed somehow. I'm not sure about the NES ROM-size of this game, but it would be nice if it fits into 48kB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 See here by the way: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 It would be nice if you could find a (disassembled & well commented) source code of the NES-version of Marble Madness. Maybe a port would be possible then, as the NES is also a 6502-based machine. Maybe only a few steps are needed to port it. The background gfx engine could be optimized then, as the inferior scrolling system & code of the NES can be bypassed somehow. I'm not sure about the NES ROM-size of this game, but it would be nice if it fits into 48kB. That would be great as I have all the Maps and Sprites from the NES version. Would only need to change the Gfxs. pixels on the side Walls to get solid colours with A8 NTSC Artifacting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaperman Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Is that really what these high-res isometric games could look like on A8? Especially Bobby Bearing? If so, it gets me thinking a bit. And not about Bobby Bearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 O.k. it looks this way but only in NTSC. In PAL it looks only this: But the Majour improvement over other Hi-Resolution Games (and they mostly of Hi-Resol. are intended to run at NTSC anyway...) is the coloured of the sprites. These are done by A8 PlayerMissiles that are 2:1ratio and move 2Hi-Resolution pixels at a time, what it is called moving in colour clock. Because the PMs. are colour clock 2pixels whenever there's a PM over pixels they get colour and luminance and turns off the Artifacts (as you see on the Picture above). NES Marble Madness Maps: Marble Map&Sprites from NES (clean and not Levels and with sprites) Analmux: Find lots of Roms but there's no sources nor comments anywhere... It seems more than 48Kb. but not the game itself... sure it is because of the different Levels... Probably the main code would fit in 48Kb. Greets. José Pereira. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Hi, I posted about this things here one or two years ago about PMs. colouring on Head Over Heels. I would like to return with this... We all know that A8 would move/change xPos. of PMs. in colour clocks but if 'Bordered lines' of soft sprites are PF1 (darkest colou) using PRIOR1 will be Darkest PMs. Luminances and mostly of the times will almost no seen with the PF1 Gfxs. colour. And as mostly are Z80 32 wide with 192 scanlines high seems there no 'cycle problem' to add PMs. and soft sprites on Walls (there's not even soo many things moving on screen at once...) Just start with a simple one: C64 BOBBY BEARING: And what it could look in A8: (without and with some different artifactings) But I have a great Arcade one to show and with a Construction Set... I have all Gfxs./Sprites,... Are anyone interested in coding MARBLE MADNESS this way? José Pereira. You can get these A8 screens if NTSC Artifacts or exactly that C64 if it will run on PAL(Green or any other colours but the dark luminance will always be darkest luminance of the colour: If green like C64 then it will be a Black/Darkest Green) But if carefully planned you can coloured the Sprites (Bobby, Enemy, direction Arrows, Objects,...). And these would be coloured above screen Background Gfxs. P.s.- Emkay that screens are with (0,4) not Black(0,0) José Pereira. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 you can mask out artifacting by pm overlays... this will "disable" artifact as far as I know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorsten Günther Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Is that really what these high-res isometric games could look like on A8? Especially Bobby Bearing? There are already some of them (Amaurote and Head over Heels were officially ported, Knight Lore and Nighthade were ported by xxl). Except for Amaurote which has terrible slowdowns and an annoying positioning/scrolling bug (but great music) they all look good. Some of the best Speccy titles were isometric games (AFAIK even Bobby Bearing originated there and was then ported to the C64). I'd welcome Quazatron with proper scrolling . Or a de-bugged and sped up Amaurote. Thorsten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 (edited) For anyone interested in study and get Artifacting: -> CLEAN no Artifacts: -> Artifacting (some cells tries at the Bottom): I am trying to see how many and different I can get... The '.g2f' and '.xex' Files of this: Artifacting.zip ...Interesting... The Artifacts-bound colors actually vary dramatically, even on the SAME machine! Before any modding, my RF-port artifacts where Red&Blue, as I always remember them. Then, on the same machine while still being unmodded, the artifacts via COMPOSITE, where actually as your right-hand screen (pretty similar). Then I removed C56, re-routed power from C3, and enabled Chroma-pin (and NOTHING else, not even chroma resistor), and the image-quality jumped TO THE ROOF, and once A-to-D-converted, they would easily rival synthetic output from Altirra (vis a vis)... but artifacts became TOTALLY different with the removal of C56. Now, they are sort of Fuccia/Bright-pinkish + Green. (like in the inner walls of your samples). Output on S-Video, of course, is completely devoid of artifacting (and two-times sharper than corrected Composite). F. Edited May 18, 2011 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Personally - technology issues aside I just wouldn't touch bobby bearing because it's the property of an amoral legal-trolling cock who will happily screw anyone over (up to and including his own grandmother) and it would be inviting a world of pain. I'd just let Tim Langdell and his delusional little edge-obsessed empire die in obscurity and go work on something else to save yourself the hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kr0tki Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 (edited) you can mask out artifacting by pm overlays... this will "disable" artifact as far as I know... PMG does not disable artifacting. José, you should consider upgrading to an emulator that recreates NTSC artifacting correctly, such as Altirra or Atari800. Edited May 19, 2011 by Kr0tki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 really? oh... I ment on PAL you can improve high res display quality by putting PMs over the gfx? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 19, 2011 Author Share Posted May 19, 2011 you can mask out artifacting by pm overlays... this will "disable" artifact as far as I know... PMG does not disable artifacting. José, you should consider upgrading to an emulator that recreates NTSC artifacting correctly, such as Altirra or Atari800. Are you sure? I thought that it did... I always used Atari800WinPlus and thought logically that if PMs. are 2Hi-resolution pixels/colour clock, each PM pixel is 1colour clock (the PFs. are just Backgr. Gfxs.). Like this they will will be considered 1pixel not two Hi-Resol. pixels. I tried one time Games like Head over Heels, Amaroute and Molecule Man in Altirra and the Image was all a mess... Not what I remember of them from the Magazines in the past... Not bad, they look awfull, totally a mess, cannot distinguish anything on screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted May 19, 2011 Author Share Posted May 19, 2011 And another thing: They produce the same effects in same pixels/lines/dither as if they was PF1/PF2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 The effect on a TV of PMGs mixed with hires will be the same as if you'd set the PF1/PF2 colour/lum to whatever values the PMGs cause them to change to. The TV doesn't "know" what you're displaying, the Atari is only telling it what colour/luma to put onscreen at a given point in time, PMG, background doing rapid colour change, it doesn't really matter... of course colour change is nowhere near as quick as cycling luma in hires by alternating 1 and 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 (edited) you can mask out artifacting by pm overlays... this will "disable" artifact as far as I know... PMG does not disable artifacting. José, you should consider upgrading to an emulator that recreates NTSC artifacting correctly, such as Altirra or Atari800. Are you sure? I thought that it did... I always used Atari800WinPlus and thought logically that if PMs. are 2Hi-resolution pixels/colour clock, each PM pixel is 1colour clock (the PFs. are just Backgr. Gfxs.). Like this they will will be considered 1pixel not two Hi-Resol. pixels. I tried one time Games like Head over Heels, Amaroute and Molecule Man in Altirra and the Image was all a mess... Not what I remember of them from the Magazines in the past... Not bad, they look awfull, totally a mess, cannot distinguish anything on screen. ...I was a consumate user of the venerable Atari800Win+++++++++ emulator (the version with the most pluses, bells & wistles). I also had Atari++, Atari800DX, etc.... and then came Altirra (which I have been using extensively, especially during the restoration of my 800XL) I have extensively tested Altirra on my main "bench" (a home-theater setup with Sony Bravia KDL-52W3000, Dell Studio 1440x, Win7-64, fully digital-to-digital audio-paths from Dell to Bravia, and from Bravia to multi-channel sound processor, etc.) The Bravia has been calibrated with computer-driven colorimeter to D75-white point, 125 cd/m2 on brights, and 0.10-0.15 cd/m2 on blacks, and overall color contrast/reproduction of the HDMI input used for 1440x has been specifically adjusted to display NTSC 75% SMPTE patterns as decently and correctly as possible). After tuning Altirra's output, and comparing vis-a-vis high high-quality captures from my Atari800XL, I can comfortably say that Altirra is now my emulator of choice, and I have permanently put to rest all other (but still good) emulators. When I run altirra, I get the same overall feeling I get when I run MameUI-64: emulation quality above everything else. Artifacting is not fool-proof in Altirra, but, overall, it is clearly superior (and generally more accurate) than any other emulator I have used. Cheers, F. Edited May 19, 2011 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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