Jump to content
IGNORED

Total number of A8 units sold worldwide = ?


oky2000

Recommended Posts

So if the 400 is a different computer, then of course the C128 is also different compared to C64.

 

Anyhow, we can all safely say that during its lifetime the C64 sold between 10.000 - 12.000 tops, anything more is just fantasy, some folk here might believe some selfmade chart from some Jeremy guy, maybe he posts on Wikipedia too. Doh...

And you base that on what data? Your opinion?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So if the 400 is a different computer, then of course the C128 is also different compared to C64.

Yes it is. And the 14(?) million number was without C128s. With was 22 or something like that.

 

Anyhow, we can all safely say that during its lifetime the C64 sold between 10.000 - 12.000 tops, anything more is just fantasy, some folk here might believe some selfmade chart from some Jeremy guy, maybe he posts on Wikipedia too. Doh...

And you base your numbers on what? You are picking a number out of the hat for C64 sales because you don't want to believe the C64 sold that well and you have no data to back it up. What I remember CBM announcing wasn't the 30 million number but it was higher than your number and even more if you include the C128. I have no idea where 30 million came from but I did hear it as far back as the mid 90s, I just didn't see where it originated.

If you think CBM lied or it's just wrong, fine, that's your opinion. But if you want to pass it as fact, back it up with some data. If you can great, then we at least have some numbers right. If you can't, why continue to push this?

 

FWIW, you said my statement was totally wrong and didn't back that up with any real data, so I decided to play devils advocate and turn it back on you.

I'm not doing this to prove I'm right. There isn't enough data to prove anyone is right, it's pure speculation or cherry picking of comments in articles that may be total fiction.

I'm just playing the same game you are. You are picking the data you want to prove you are right so I'm picking the data I want to prove you are wrong. And I shifted my argument because you kept shifting your argument to try to prove what you wanted.

 

When you didn't like the message you attacked me, trying to say I was a big meanie.

Look at my responses to other people. The comment from the Atari manager comments for example. My response... an off the cuff remark. I clearly sided to Atari's benefit. But they weren't trying to force an answer we have no data to support and they don't keep moving the argument around with no facts.

 

As for others comments about the Time article and Jeremy's ...

I didn't post the Time article first and I didn't post Jeremy's link first.

When it suited your needs it was great, when I used it against you it suddenly became unreliable.

Jeremy's numbers showed 600,000 400/800s (combined, not just the 400) sold in '82, which is the same as the low number I found for the VIC (high was actually 800,000 which I think is fanboyism)... but the TI sold 3 * as much according to that Time article.

 

If you bothered to actually look through the data (do the math rather than try to push opinion), the Time article is obviously wrong. If the VIC20 was supposedly the first to 1 million in January of '83, sold 600 thousand machines in the year '82, and the TI sold 3 times as many in '82... hmmmm 3 * 600K = 1.8 Million in '82 and then the VIC isn't the first to 1 million which isn't true. Not to mention the 35,000 total machines sold figure which I already said couldn't be right when I questioned the accuracy of the article. Any one of you should have been able to see that but you aren't interested in the math at all.

 

FWIW, the Time article (as well as other articles) that refer to a "research group" that came up with their info.

The research groups often get their data by sending out surveys to retailers and paying them for their responses.

If a handful of retailers say the TI outsold the VIC 3 to 1 for them, but retailers that didn't respond or didn't get asked (mailorder houses, smaller retailers, etc...) sold 20 VICs to every 1 TI and accounted for 75% of total sales... then you can see why the numbers would be off. The research group took a sample and extrapolated based on sales projections from their responding retailers.

This is why I say the only numbers we can trust have to be from stockholder meetings or reports. Marketing hype is another reason. So and so projects 20 billion machines sold if 5 years! and a year later company x adjusts sales projections downward. No hype, no projections, no speculation, only actual sales data will prove anything.

 

On another note, the TS1000 supposedly sold 550,000 machines by the end of '82 and it was released in July of that year.

I thought I read a Wall Street Journal article that said the TS1000 was the first machine to sell 1 million machines in a 1 year period but I can't find it now. InfoWorld makes mention of it selling over 1 million in a July issue but doesn't list a time period to reach that number.

Edited by JamesD
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On another note, the TS1000 supposedly sold 550,000 machines by the end of '82 and it was released in July of that year.

I thought I read a Wall Street Journal article that said the TS1000 was the first machine to sell 1 million machines in a 1 year period but I can't find it now. InfoWorld makes mention of it selling over 1 million in a July issue but doesn't list a time period to reach that number.

That was supposed to say '83.

 

And since people are starting to refer to this as a heated debate... if you haven't figured out there just isn't enough data to prove anything by now, you never will... so go for it and make up all the numbers you want.

If I find something useful I'll post a link.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some links.

 

Infoworld June 14, 1982

Talks about both Atari and TI reporting 300,000 in sales for '81 and expecting to ship 1.5 million units in '82. Which would explain management's reaction to sales less than half that (Jeremy's numbers). Source is "sources".

 

Atari Company History on Funding Universe. Lots of info on $ losses. Mentions increase of computer sales by 4 times but it may be referring to expectations as it lists no source.

 

Infoworld June 28, 1982

Atari cutting computer prices. 400 drops $50. Right next to that Article, Apple introduces special Apple II computer package for under $2000.

 

Commodore Company History on Funding Universe. Mentions 800,000 / year in VIC sales and on 30% of C64 sales coming from the US. No source mentioned.

 

Infoworld Aug 6, 1984 Atari From Starting Block To Auction Block

I have run across comments elsewhere that Atari expected a 50% rise in profits in '82 and this mentions profits down 56% for that year.

 

Infoworld Sept 20, 1982 400% increase in computer sales expected

Lots of speculations on sales, Commodore and TI expected to be the winners.

 

Infoworld March 12, 1984 Atari sold all the 600XLs and 800XLs it could make during the last quarter of 1983.

 

Infoworld May 11, 1981

Review of Atari 800. Mentions strong sales at Computerland and someone at Radio Shack saying Atari is fast closing on total Commodore sales at that time.

 

I've looked and looked for an Infoworld article mentioning Atari computer sales that actually took place in '82 but all I get are total sales $ for everything. I even searched for Wall Street Journal and Business Week articles but I didn't find anything.

Edited by JamesD
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Atari sold all the 600/800 XL computers they could in the last quarter of '83 because of the delay caused by James Morgan's reorganization efforts and subsequently manufacturing wasn't running at full speed. By November Atari weren't taking new orders for the new XL models, something which didn't change until 84. Morgan did put a positive spin on things though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I got curious to see if searching for TI sales would give any references and found the following text here.

"Business Week Magazine publshes an article in its February 14, 1983 issue entitled "Texas Instruments Comes Roaring Back". The article reports that at the end of 1982 the TI-99/4A had captured 35% of the under $1000 computer market, and that some 700,000 units had been sold. It was currently selling 30,000 units per week"

<edit>

BTW, I have no idea if that is total TI sales from day one or that year but it sounds like that year. 30K/week would be 1.5 million/year if that were the average rate for the year. Since TI pulled the plug after just a few more months I have to think TI sold 1.5-2.2 million computers.

</edit>

 

Based on other references on that page it sounds like TI was selling machines at a loss in hopes of gaining profits on software in the future. I'm not sure at what point they started loosing money but if they had stopped at breaking even the strategy might have worked.

 

Infoworld Nov 28, 1983 What went wrong with Atari?

 

Infoworld Sept 12, 1983 Are consumers turning away from low-cost computers?

Talk that only the C64 might be able to survive.

Edited by JamesD
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very interesting reads. I have not read all links yet.

 

This is interesting (but obviously prices were different in the first part of the year and in the last part).

http://penguicon.sou...99/time1982.htm

Philip Faflick and Robert T. Grieves of Time Magazine report that the hottest selling hardware of 1982 included:

Timex Sinclair 1000 ($99)

Commodore VIC-20 ($299)

Atari 400 and 800 ($299 and $899)

TI-99/4A ($450)

Epson HX-20 ($795)

TRS-80 Model III ($999)

Apple II Plus ($1330)

IBM PC ($1565)

Osborne I ($1795)

 

The short-lived (1982-1983) low cost Timex Sinclair 1000 could have sold well in 1982 but it was introduced in US in July only.

 

Problem not easy to solve...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TI99/4A figures a bit surprising, I'd have thought somewhat less.

 

I think so as well, but I have no way to prove it.

 

VIC-20 sounds low, considering it was the first computer model to break 1 million in sales. How is it the TI-99 beat the VIC in raw numbers?

 

TRS-80 also sounds low, I would suspect at least 2 million sold because until the VIC-20, the TRS-80s were the top selling computer line.

 

It's thought there were over 3 million TI-99/4As sold. It was the #1 machine in the USA for a while, before Commodore really got their prices down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's thought there were over 3 million TI-99/4As sold. It was the #1 machine in the USA for a while, before Commodore really got their prices down.

Prior to '82 it was likely to be behind Radio Shack, Apple, etc... because they hadn't lowered prices.

The "leaders" were selling around 300K/year or less in '81 and something like 100K or less prior to that.

The above reference I posted said TI sold 700K in '82 and was selling 30K/month at that point (article probably written in January).

If you combine that and give TI the benefit of the doubt (I've never found anything that says anyone but Radio Shack and Apple before '81) you get something like 1.2 million at the end of '82. But TI discontinues it mid '83 so 6 months at 30K is 1.8 million... but 30K / month is probably Christmas '82 numbers and sales are lower after January and lowest towards summer. So you could end up with up to 3 million but I think the summer sales and early life sales were lower which gets you down to about 2.5 million or so. It's a total guesstimate and a TI fan doing the same math probably came up with the 3 million number.

 

Atari? 5 million? That's over 250K/year over 10 years. The '90s and pre-'81 may not equal 250K combined and I don't see that many / year after '86 either. So '82-'86 better be good... and Atari had bad news at the end of '82 all the way through that period. 3 Million... definitely. 4 million, certainly possible. But 5? :?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

250K + per year sounds feasible in the period 1984 thru 1988 or so.

Supposedly the XEGS gave the platform a decent sales boost.

 

The late 1980s was when the ST and Amiga started to become much more affordable.

Given that Amiga 500 came out in '87 and prices got slashed in the years following, it'd make sense that sales probably dropped off around 87-88.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

250K + per year sounds feasible in the period 1984 thru 1988 or so.

If you look at Jeremy's numbers, though incomplete and a few questionable, you'll see C64 sales only held steady through '86, then dropped by 40% in '87, and were half of peak years by '88.

 

By Jeremy's numbers, Atari might have passed 2 million in '83. At the same sales rate (about 500K/year) from Jeremy's numbers you get to 3 million by the end '85. If sales drop 40% in '86 you are at 300K that year, 250K in '87, and sales are continuing to drop. So by the end of '87 that's 3.55 million total. If you have 250K in sales every remaining year up to the final Atari 8 bit produced, you are only at 4.55 million.

 

Supposedly the XEGS gave the platform a decent sales boost.

The XEGS? Wiki says "The console was not a success." Another site said it was quickly pulled from the market.

 

The late 1980s was when the ST and Amiga started to become much more affordable.

Given that Amiga 500 came out in '87 and prices got slashed in the years following, it'd make sense that sales probably dropped off around 87-88.

I think people were starting to save up for more powerful machines sooner than that. The Infoworld article I linked to suggested that years earlier.

 

You have to remember though that Atari enjoyed quite strong sales in Eastern Europe which effectively helped keep the 8-bit line going whilst sales in the UK and US were declining.

Eastern Europe may have slowed the rate sales dropped at but overall numbers continued to decline.

Outside Eastern Europe numbers are falling by major percentages to get those numbers for the C64. The C64 should have seen a similar increase Eastern Europe as the Atari but their sales numbers actually continued to fall. You do see the rate numbers are falling by slow around '88 and I'm guessing it's because of Eastern Europe.

Instead of 250K strait through to the end like I showed above you probably end up with a few years ('86-'89) of sales averaging close to 350K, but also remember you probably end up with an average of 100K or less the last couple years which offsets the increase and numbers end up about the same as above.

 

Almost every manufacturer still in the game in the late '80s dropped their machines about the same time. That means sales were dropping off for every manufacturer at about the same time, so I think using the C64 sales drop percentages is close enough that it won't change the outcome.

 

What you really need to reach 5 million is 2 more years at 500K or more sales to have a chance and we don't have any data for those years. To compensate for that in my estimate I looked at C64 sales. Since the C64 had steady sales at the same level a while, I extended Atari's sales at the same level a while. If Atari's numbers actually went up to 750K and hold steady a couple years, you are very close. But we already know that's not possible for one year because of the production issue, and then there was the massive stock drop, layoffs, CEO fired, company sold... that had to have some sort of negative impact on sales.

 

Continue to argue all you want, I just did the best math I could with what we have. All you can do is say "what if we add sales here and there", and then we are inventing numbers out of thin air that are based on nothing more than wanting 5 million in sales for Atari. Is my guess right? I have no idea but at least I tried to base it on what info we have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Continue to argue all you want,

 

I don't recall anyone arguing here, unless you are admitting to arguing to yourself, by yourself.

 

I can't care less if Atari sold 2 million, 3 million or 5 million 8-bit computers and I can't care less how many C64s were sold or by whatever ratio they outperformed Atari. It has no impact on my life today whatsoever. Having an accurate figure would be nice but is it going to make us all live longer or bring about world peace?

 

If you look at Eastern Europe, there was enough demand for Atari to continue manufacturing to some extent, and not just sell out of whatever they had in the parts bin and call it a day. There was also enough demand for third parties to license things like the XC12 and the Indus GT. If that demand made Atari reach X in millions of units sold instead of Y then great, if it didn't then so be it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you look at Eastern Europe, there was enough demand for Atari to continue manufacturing to some extent, and not just sell out of whatever they had in the parts bin and call it a day. There was also enough demand for third parties to license things like the XC12 and the Indus GT. If that demand made Atari reach X in millions of units sold instead of Y then great, if it didn't then so be it.

And if you look at the link I posted to stock prices, you should be able to see some signs of increased profit if you are correct.

 

Stocks were highest in '82, dropped a little in '83, dropped more in '84 and dropped around 40% in '85... right around when C64 sales drop 40%. Which backs up what I said.

 

Prices stabilize from '85-'86 with the intro of the ST, rise slightly in '87 with the attempted comeback, drop below '86 levels in '88 when the comeback doesn't help, and return to about '86 levels in '89.

Things drop a little in 1990 as ST sales decline but stocks are steady for several years. The ST had reasonably steady sales which is reflected in the stock price from '85 on. But nowhere is there any indication of an increase in 8 bit sales to '82-'83 levels that would be required to reach 5 million. Stocks would have more than doubled and stayed there for at least 2 years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Poland: 200,000 too high or not high enough?

In Poland the Atari computers weren't officially available until 1985, when import of 8-bit computers became legal under CoCom and Logical Design Works became the official distributor of Atari. Before that, the computers were unofficially imported or smuggled by individuals in small quantities.

 

LDW was the exclusive distributor of all Atari hardware until 1993, when the company closed down. In the March/April 1991 issue of "Moje Atari", the LDW's owner said that until that point they imported about 250-270 thousand of Atari 8-bit computers, that this amount equals about 1% of total produced Atari machines, and that they ordered a new batch of 60-70 thousand 8-bit units to sell the following year. He also said that the demand is strong and that the Atari 8-bit units available in Polish stores are at most 2 months old.(Moje Atari 4/1991, pp.8-9)

 

According to a poll held by the general-computing magazine Bajtek in 1988 (poll: Bajtek 9/1988, p. 11; results (almost 5000 replies): Bajtek 6/1989, pp. 4-5), Atari was the most popular computer in Poland, being owned by 58% readers. (That's mostly 8-bits, since the ST was still banned under CoCom and not imported officially.) The next was Spectrum (23%), then Commodore (11%, again mostly C-64), then Amstrad (3%).

 

Another poll held by Bajtek during 1992 showed that the 8-bit computers were owned by 54% of readers (the rest were 16/32 bit systems).(Bajtek 3/1993, pp.10-11) Out of the 8-bit computers, the most popular was the C-64 (53%), then Spectrum (34%), then Atari (18%), then Amstrad (6%).

 

Other notes:

 

From Bajtek 2/1989, p.7: "In 1988 only in West Germany Atari sold 500 000 Atari 800XL units (...)."

Edited by Kr0tki
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does the article list the source for that info? <edit>(500,000)

<edit>

BTW, if you do the math (and you guys never do) if 270,000 is 1%, then 270,000 * 100 = 27,000,000 total. And you trust that? So why would management be saying hundreds of thousands instead of millions? That's 2.7 million a year for 10 years.

Edited by JamesD
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To go back to an earlier reference...

At the Atari shareholders meeting, Atari stated that last year, 250,000 XE computers were sold. In Poland, the XE sold 70,000 units, making it the most popular computer in Poland. (Atari Interface, June/July 1990, p. 6)

If Atari is selling 250K in 1990 and stock prices were steady from '87 till then, that also supports the previous calculation I did. ('87 on is 250K till the end)

 

500K in one country has to have more influence on stock prices if 250,000 was the total for the world in 1990. And that was supposedly a shareholder meeting. I'm wondering if Atari Interface ever lists other sales info... 1987 would be a good year to look if it was around then.

 

If Atari did sell 500+K in one year, what did they sell in the surrounding years? And that would get you to around 4.7-4.8 million with just that year, assuming none of my other numbers are high.

 

As for the % in Germany, someone already posted that another magazine (Happy Computer or something like that) said the C64 was the top seller. So different magazines, different readers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does the article list the source for that info? <edit>(500,000)

No, unfortunately not. I believe its a translation from some German magazine, though.

 

BTW, if you do the math (and you guys never do) if 270,000 is 1%, then 270,000 * 100 = 27,000,000 total. And you trust that? So why would management be saying hundreds of thousands instead of millions? That's 2.7 million a year for 10 years.

I haven't noticed that at first. I believe it was a spelling error and that it should be 10% instead of 1%. Another reason for my opinion is that if the guy really meant 1% he would probably not brag about such a lousy statistics in an interview.

 

EDIT: Another remark from that interview: "Currently about 20% of total production is sent to Poland."

Edited by Kr0tki
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does the article list the source for that info? <edit>(500,000)

No, unfortunately not. I believe its a translation from some German magazine, though.

Bummer, it would be nice if we could confirm that somehow.

 

BTW, if you do the math (and you guys never do) if 270,000 is 1%, then 270,000 * 100 = 27,000,000 total. And you trust that? So why would management be saying hundreds of thousands instead of millions? That's 2.7 million a year for 10 years.

I haven't noticed that at first. I believe it was a spelling error and that it should be 10% instead of 1%. Another reason for my opinion is that if the guy really meant 1% he would probably not brag about such a lousy statistics in an interview.

If it were 10% then the total would be 2.7 million. Which is worse than my estimates and would indicate lower sales around '83-'86 than I estimated. Given Atari's problems it's possible and then a boost in sales for 2-3 years in Eastern Europe would have sales back to about where I guessed.

Edited by JamesD
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be honest, the interview doesn't clarify whethetr in both cases he was talking about total production of all Ataris or only the 8-bits, or whether he meant total ouptut of Atari Corp. and Inc. compined or only Corp. (Note that LDW started their business with Atari only after the takeover.) EDIT: Although he clearly says that it's 20% of the then-current production of the 8-bits, not of all Atari models.

 

EDIT 2: I'll quote the full paragraph translated as closely as possible, so anybody can draw conclusions by oneself:

"- How many Atari computers have been sold in Poland through Pewex? (Pewex was the only chain of shops that sold computers imported by LDW)

LDW: - About 250-270 thousand "small" (8-bit) Ataris. Currently about 20% of the global production of 8-bit Atari computers is sent to Poland, overall our contracts with Atari are about 1% (more likely 10%) of the company's production output.

- Will the retail of Atari computers in Poland be carried on in the future?

LDW: - By all means. At the beginning of the next year, another big order is going to be realised. We are going to import 60-70 thousand "small" Ataris to Poland. To this day we have been importing the ST series in small numbers. Only recently we have signed a contract for import of 10 thousand of the 520STFM."

Edited by Kr0tki
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does the article list the source for that info? <edit>(500,000)

No, unfortunately not. I believe its a translation from some German magazine, though.

 

 

Well,

 

I do have that german magazine (most active Atarians in Germany do), its the editorial of "Happy Computer - 2. Atari XL/XE Sonderheft" (second Atari XL/XE special magazine) for Atari 8Bit computers, written by Henrik Fisch at page 3. And err, the polish translation is wrong or quotes the wrong numbers, because the Happy Computer special magazine quoted german Atari chairman Alwin Stumpf who reported at the CeBit 1987 in Hannover that all of a sudden (and to a big surprise by Atari Germany) 92,000 Atari XL computers were sold. The success was such a big surprise, that it is now planned to re-release the 800XL in the case of the XE computer [later kown as Atari 800XE in Europe]... so, only 92,000 (or 100,000 if you like that better) Ataris were sold in one year, not 500,000...

 

The funny thing is, that the backpage of this magazine has an advert from Atari Germany which shows the Atari 800XE and a screenshot of Flight Simulator II and the title "Der neue Atari 800XE ist soeben gelandet" (the new Atari 800XE has just landed)...

 

-Andreas Koch.

 

P.S.: Think, I read some articles in the following years where the authors wrote 100,000 Atari 8Bit`s were sold 1987 - but also some "bad" articles, where the authors suddenly wrote 1,000,000 Ataris were sold (thanks to bad copy & paste or lazy research)...

 

P.P.S.: I can do some scans if you like... but the magazine is in german language and I am not gonna translate everything... ;-)

Edited by CharlieChaplin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...