maybe we should learn a thing or two from the retro computers fans!

[sermajic]

was thinking the other day,

 

why the venerable sinclair spectrum has a such a strong following,

great new releases every year on casette for a price

 

AND

 

free roms from the same publishers available to run on divide

on the real thing from compactflash -kinda ultimate sd cart or harmony cart-

 

why are "publishers" as opcode games against distributing their roms?

 

even if you offer to pay for them!

 

as a collector i would buy the real thing,

but as a gamer i will want the rom on my ultimate multicart!

 

they don't really even own the rights of most of the games they "port" ,

 

so why do they deny us the possibility of playing their games?

even when sometimes they can`t offer the carts anymore

 

pretty stupid i think...

[Pixelboy]

was thinking the other day,

 

why the venerable sinclair spectrum has a such a strong following,

great new releases every year on casette for a price

 

AND

 

free roms from the same publishers available to run on divide

on the real thing from compactflash -kinda ultimate sd cart or harmony cart-

 

why are "publishers" as opcode games against distributing their roms?

 

even if you offer to pay for them!

 

as a collector i would buy the real thing,

but as a gamer i will want the rom on my ultimate multicart!

 

they don't really even own the rights of most of the games they "port" ,

 

so why do they deny us the possibility of playing their games?

even when sometimes they can`t offer the carts anymore

 

pretty stupid i think...

And I can tell that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

Before you label anything as "stupid", friend, you may want to consider the pros and cons of what you're proposing. Releasing games on actual ColecoVision cartridges, with quality boxes and manuals, requires thousands of dollars invested into preparations and materials. Yes, that's THOUSANDS, with an "S" at the end.

 

Guys like me and Opcode don't really look to make a profit from homebrew sales, but we do want to recoup our invested money. And do you know what happens when you release a ROM to the general populace? The carts stop selling, that's what. It's as simple as that. And while guys like you enjoy the games on emulators and USB carts, all those fancy boxes, manuals and carts stay on the shelves at the homebrewer's home.

 

The fact that we don't "own the rights" to our games is completely beside the point. We put a lot of sweat, tears and money into our releases, and we expect ColecoVision fans to honor that level of commitment by purchasing our games, if only to help get our invested money back, and also to allow us not to stay stuck with unsold inventory. That's the main reason we don't want to give away the ROMs.

 

Comparing the CV homebrew scene to the Spectrum scene is like comparing apples to oranges.

[AtariLeaf]

I was going to post this in the corn thread but it works here too

 

[+GroovyBee]

Guys like me and Opcode don't really look to make a profit from homebrew sales, but we do want to recoup our invested money. And do you know what happens when you release a ROM to the general populace? The carts stop selling, that's what. It's as simple as that. And while guys like you enjoy the games on emulators and USB carts, all those fancy boxes, manuals and carts stay on the shelves at the homebrewer's home.

 

It doesn't work like that in the Atari 2600/7800 world where the majority of the homebrew game's have ROM images released before a cart run is made. The game authors normally run a preorder list first and then make carts/manuals/boxes after payment has been made. Most good game's will sell 50+ copies that way.

[sermajic]

it`s not,

not by a landmile

and the speccy scene is not the only one that works that way indeed

 

i`m not against making money at all!

i would be glad to know that you got rich with colecovision products!

 

just don`t see your point,

it`s not true that the carts will stop selling,

because its true that

we can just play perfectly emulated versions of virtualy every game on a flashed wii, for next to nothing

we don`t need ports,

because we can emulate anything on even such a cheap console

 

but that`s not the point!

 

we are not talking about emulators,

but playing on real hardware!

 

pd:

i own over 700 atari carts, but that didn't stop me from buying a dozen harmony carts

to support them!

 

 

 

 

 

 

was thinking the other day,

 

why the venerable sinclair spectrum has a such a strong following,

great new releases every year on casette for a price

 

AND

 

free roms from the same publishers available to run on divide

on the real thing from compactflash -kinda ultimate sd cart or harmony cart-

 

why are "publishers" as opcode games against distributing their roms?

 

even if you offer to pay for them!

 

as a collector i would buy the real thing,

but as a gamer i will want the rom on my ultimate multicart!

 

they don't really even own the rights of most of the games they "port" ,

 

so why do they deny us the possibility of playing their games?

even when sometimes they can`t offer the carts anymore

 

pretty stupid i think...

And I can tell that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

Before you label anything as "stupid", friend, you may want to consider the pros and cons of what you're proposing. Releasing games on actual ColecoVision cartridges, with quality boxes and manuals, requires thousands of dollars invested into preparations and materials. Yes, that's THOUSANDS, with an "S" at the end.

 

Guys like me and Opcode don't really look to make a profit from homebrew sales, but we do want to recoup our invested money. And do you know what happens when you release a ROM to the general populace? The carts stop selling, that's what. It's as simple as that. And while guys like you enjoy the games on emulators and USB carts, all those fancy boxes, manuals and carts stay on the shelves at the homebrewer's home.

 

The fact that we don't "own the rights" to our games is completely beside the point. We put a lot of sweat, tears and money into our releases, and we expect ColecoVision fans to honor that level of commitment by purchasing our games, if only to help get our invested money back, and also to allow us not to stay stuck with unsold inventory. That's the main reason we don't want to give away the ROMs.

 

Comparing the CV homebrew scene to the Spectrum scene is like comparing apples to oranges.

[sermajic]

still don`t see your point

Edited June 24, 2011 by sermajic

[Pixelboy]

It doesn't work like that in the Atari 2600/7800 world where the majority of the homebrew game's have ROM images released before a cart run is made. The game authors normally run a preorder list first and then make carts/manuals/boxes after payment has been made. Most good game's will sell 50+ copies that way.

And what happens if you don't meet the quota that will allow you to recoup your invested money? The ROM is never released on cartridges?

 

I can follow your reasonning for a totally new game created from scratch. In that case, you can create a pre-release version with some features removed, and let people decide if they want to buy the final product. In fact, that's something I would like to do with some of my personal CV projects down the road. But offering the actual final version of the ROM online? Considering the amount of money invested, that's just asking for trouble and disappointment.

[+GroovyBee]

And what happens if you don't meet the quota that will allow you to recoup your invested money? The ROM is never released on cartridges?

 

Its easy! If there are 47 paid up people on your preorder list you make 47 carts and ship them out. After that check if a 2nd run is required and then give Albert the rights to sell the cart in the AA store so people who didn't make the preorder list(s) can pick the title up later.

 

I can follow your reasonning for a totally new game created from scratch. In that case, you can create a pre-release version with some features removed, and let people decide if they want to buy the final product. In fact, that's something I would like to do with some of my personal CV projects down the road. But offering the actual final version of the ROM online? Considering the amount of money invested, that's just asking for trouble and disappointment.

 

If somebody really wants to dump your cart they will, its a sad fact of life. However, homebrew game collectors will always want the cart, manual, box and/or special editions.

[sermajic]

of course, that was my point, so why not making a bit money off the rom?

 

 

 

If somebody really wants to dump your cart they will, its a sad fact of life. However, homebrew game collectors will always want the cart, manual, box and/or special editions.

Edited June 24, 2011 by sermajic

[Pixelboy]

it`s not,

not by a landmile

and the speccy scene is not the only one that works that way indeed

You said yourself that the Speccy scene runs via cassettes. You mean standard audio cassettes, right? I'm pretty sure that's a relatively cheaper solution over game cartridges... And also a more uncertain one because cassette tapes can degrade over time, which means it's actually a smart choice to release the ROM in that context.

 

i`m not against making money at all!

i would be glad to know that you got rich with colecovision products!

Well, I don't make money at all, just in case you're wondering. I still have lots of unsold Gulkave, Girl's Garden and Pitfall II Arcade carts, and I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to part with them all. So right now, I'm losing money in this endeavour. But I don't really mind it, because that kind of risk comes with the territory and you have to be patient regarding long-term sales.

 

just don`t see your point,

it`s not true that the carts will stop selling,

Retroillucid, who runs CollectorVision, will tell you a different story. I'm hoping he will step in and tell his side of it, especially where Pooyan is concerned.

 

because its true that

we can just play perfectly emulated versions of virtualy every game on a flashed wii, for next to nothing

we don`t need ports,

because we can emulate anything on even such a cheap console

 

but that`s not the point!

 

we are not talking about emulators,

but playing on real hardware!

 

pd:

i own over 700 atari carts, but that didn't stop me from buying a dozen harmony carts

to support them!

Okay, so having the ROMs doesn't stop you from buying the carts. Good for you. But do you really think everybody else is like you? There are some out there who will go out of their way to beg for ROMs when they know other people have them, just to save some money. Some others will share a homebrew ROM with their friends, in the strictest of confidence, and within a year, a good number of people online will have that ROM in their personal collection, and certainly won't bother to buy the cartridge edition. And the homebrewer (who is losing sales in the process) never knows exactly how many people out there managed to get their hands on his ROM for free.

[sermajic]

so why not sell the rom for like 5 bucks,

and release it only when you have got your money back?

-ex maybe 200 pcs -

 

then if the rom is all over the web in a year, you don`t need to worry

 

i think this is the same kind of mistake the company records made,

until they found -late- they could make money selling mp3s

 

i`m still buying vinyl by the way...

 

 

 

 

 

it`s not,

not by a landmile

and the speccy scene is not the only one that works that way indeed

You said yourself that the Speccy scene runs via cassettes. You mean standard audio cassettes, right? I'm pretty sure that's a relatively cheaper solution over game cartridges... And also a more uncertain one because cassette tapes can degrade over time, which means it's actually a smart choice to release the ROM in that context.

 

i`m not against making money at all!

i would be glad to know that you got rich with colecovision products!

Well, I don't make money at all, just in case you're wondering. I still have lots of unsold Gulkave, Girl's Garden and Pitfall II Arcade carts, and I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to part with them all. So right now, I'm losing money in this endeavour. But I don't really mind it, because that kind of risk comes with the territory and you have to be patient regarding long-term sales.

 

just don`t see your point,

it`s not true that the carts will stop selling,

Retroillucid, who runs CollectorVision, will tell you a different story. I'm hoping he will step in and tell his side of it, especially where Pooyan is concerned.

 

because its true that

we can just play perfectly emulated versions of virtualy every game on a flashed wii, for next to nothing

we don`t need ports,

because we can emulate anything on even such a cheap console

 

but that`s not the point!

 

we are not talking about emulators,

but playing on real hardware!

 

pd:

i own over 700 atari carts, but that didn't stop me from buying a dozen harmony carts

to support them!

Okay, so having the ROMs doesn't stop you from buying the carts. Good for you. But do you really think everybody else is like you? There are some out there who will go out of their way to beg for ROMs when they know other people have them, just to save some money. Some others will share a homebrew ROM with their friends, in the strictest of confidence, and within a year, a good number of people online will have that ROM in their personal collection, and certainly won't bother to buy the cartridge edition. And the homebrewer (who is losing sales in the process) never knows exactly how many people out there managed to get their hands on his ROM for free.

[Pixelboy]

And what happens if you don't meet the quota that will allow you to recoup your invested money? The ROM is never released on cartridges?

Its easy! If there are 47 paid up people on your preorder list you make 47 carts and ship them out. After that check if a 2nd run is required and then give Albert the rights to sell the cart in the AA store so people who didn't make the preorder list(s) can pick the title up later.

Do you offer those 47 games in commercial-grade boxes, with commercial-grade manuals?

 

I can follow your reasonning for a totally new game created from scratch. In that case, you can create a pre-release version with some features removed, and let people decide if they want to buy the final product. In fact, that's something I would like to do with some of my personal CV projects down the road. But offering the actual final version of the ROM online? Considering the amount of money invested, that's just asking for trouble and disappointment.

If somebody really wants to dump your cart they will, its a sad fact of life. However, homebrew game collectors will always want the cart, manual, box and/or special editions.

True, but dumping carts requires special hardware and know-how, and it's not something that everyone out there can easely do. The CV homebrew scene is lucky enough to have cart dumpers who don't share their dumps at large. Otherwise, guys like me, Eduardo and J-F would just throw in the towel.

 

You can always expect to sell at least 50 copies of any game released on carts, but the fact is, it takes more sales than that to recoup one's invested money. That's the case for me and Eduardo at least, because we spend a lot on nice boxes and manuals, which I know most buyers truly appreciate, and that's the real end-game here.

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

Well, forgive my simplistic view here and I am sure it will not sway anyone's opinion either way but in my mind who creates the port or even original game and then invests their time, effort, money to create a full cartridge package has the right to damn well chose how they want to distribute it and what they want to do with the ROM before, during and afterward. It is their work, they are entitled and they owe the ROM to nobody for free or for sale. If anyone has an issue with it then post your own version and do whatever the hell you want with it, case closed. Me, I have no such skill or ability, so I want a ROM of someone's port who is not giving it away or selling it well to damn bad for me, I guess I can either suck it up and buy the complete cart or if they are no longer available go play one of the thousand of other ROMS that ARE freely available.

Edited June 24, 2011 by OldSchoolRetroGamer

[Pixelboy]

so why not sell the rom for like 5 bucks,

and release it only when you have got your money back?

-ex maybe 200 pcs -

 

then if the rom is all over the web in a year, you don`t need to worry

You're not making any sense here. If the ROM is all over the web, then why would people bother to buy the game on a cartridge, especially when they can play the ROM on their real CV console using a USB cart?

 

Also, there is absolutely no way 200 individuals will pay 5 bucks for a ROM file. That's just dreaming in Technicolor. You'll be lucky if you find 50 people who will be willing to pay for it. The 150 others (assuming there are that many) will just patiently wait for the ROM to pop up on a web site somewhere, or will lobby to get the ROM from those who bought it, and I am absolutely certain that the ROM will leak off that way.

 

 

i think this is the same kind of mistake the company records made,

until they found -late- they could make money selling mp3s

Again, apples and oranges. You're assuming I won't mind limiting myself to selling ColecoVision ROMs online for cheap, as long as I get money for my troubles. NEWS FLASH: I do mind. I want to release my games on real cartridges, with beautiful boxes and manuals. Call me a perfectionist if you want, but I won't settle for anything less. And this alone sets the context and validates the fact that I don't want to release ROMs.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Pixelboy

[sermajic]

Well, forgive my simplistic view here and I am sure it will not sway anyone's opinion either way but in my mind who creates the port or even original game and then invests their time, effort, money to create a full cartridge package has the right to damn well chose how they want to distribute it and what they want to do with the ROM before, during and afterward. It is their work, they are entitled and they owe the ROM to nobody for free or for sale. If anyone has an issue with it then post your own version and do whatever the hell you want with it, case closed. Me, I have no such skill or ability, so I want a ROM of someone's port who is not giving it away or selling it well to damn bad for me, I guess I can either suck it up and buy the complete cart or if they are no longer available go play one of the thousand of other ROMS that ARE freely available.

 

 

of course they can do what they wan`t, just pointing they could make some money with the "virtual" part of their work

[sermajic]

so why not sell the rom for like 5 bucks,

and release it only when you have got your money back?

-ex maybe 200 pcs -

 

then if the rom is all over the web in a year, you don`t need to worry

You're not making any sense here. If the ROM is all over the web, then why would people bother to buy the game on a cartridge, especially when they can play the ROM on their real CV console using a USB cart?

 

Also, there is absolutely no way 200 individuals will pay 5 bucks for a ROM file. That's just dreaming in Technicolor. You'll be lucky if you find 50 people who will be willing to pay for it. The 150 others (assuming there are that many) will just patiently wait for the ROM to pop up on a web site somwehere, or will lobby to get the ROM from those who bought it, and I am absolutely certain that the ROM will leak off that way.

 

i know a lot of guys ,like me, who would pay 40 bucks if the game is nice enough,

we already pay more than thay for "modern" games that we don`t like so much

 

i think this is the same kind of mistake the company records made,

until they found -late- they could make money selling mp3s

Again, apples and oranges. You're assuming I won't mind limiting myself to selling ColecoVision ROMs online for cheap, as long as I get money for my troubles. NEWS FLASH: I do mind. I want to release my games on real cartridges, with beautiful boxes and manuals. Call me a perfectionist if you want, but I won't settle for anything less. And this alone sets the context and validates the fact that I don't want to release ROMs.

 

you `re again asuming you can`t sell both

[sermajic]

and "retro looking" original casette tapes are no way cheaper to make than carts

[Pixelboy]

i know a lot of guys ,like me, who would pay 40 bucks if the game is nice enough,

we already pay more than thay for "modern" games that we don`t like so much

Well then, that settles it! Forget about the ROM and just buy the darn game!

 

Again, apples and oranges. You're assuming I won't mind limiting myself to selling ColecoVision ROMs online for cheap, as long as I get money for my troubles. NEWS FLASH: I do mind. I want to release my games on real cartridges, with beautiful boxes and manuals. Call me a perfectionist if you want, but I won't settle for anything less. And this alone sets the context and validates the fact that I don't want to release ROMs.

you `re again asuming you can`t sell both

And you're again assuming that I can. When they have the ROM (and a USB cart to play it on real hardware) a significant portion of potential buyers won't buy the real cart. Nothing you say will make me believe otherwise.

[+5-11under]

Well, forgive my simplistic view here and I am sure it will not sway anyone's opinion either way but in my mind who creates the port or even original game and then invests their time, effort, money to create a full cartridge package has the right to damn well chose how they want to distribute it and what they want to do with the ROM before, during and afterward. It is their work, they are entitled and they owe the ROM to nobody for free or for sale. If anyone has an issue with it then post your own version and do whatever the hell you want with it, case closed. Me, I have no such skill or ability, so I want a ROM of someone's port who is not giving it away or selling it well to damn bad for me, I guess I can either suck it up and buy the complete cart or if they are no longer available go play one of the thousand of other ROMS that ARE freely available.

Exactly!

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

 

 

of course they can do what they wan`t, just pointing they could make some money with the "virtual" part of their work

 

I have no doubt they have given every consideration as to how they might recover costs as well as the best method for distribution etc. At this point your just continually questioning their chosen methods, I am sure they have considered everything and done what is best for them so it's pretty much case closed regardless of how you might think they should handle their work, why go on about it? You want something in a way they are not willing to provide it, get over it.

Edited June 24, 2011 by OldSchoolRetroGamer

[retroillucid]

This is the same topic as last year.....well...

[jaybird3rd]

of course they can do what they wan`t, just pointing they could make some money with the "virtual" part of their work

We covered a lot of the same territory last year in another thread I started, in which I attempted to explore digital distribution for homebrew games and to persuade others--unsuccessfully, I think--of the merits of the idea. I'm still formulating my thoughts on the issue, but my conclusion is that, while there are possibilities in that direction (given the right distribution model and the right non-intrusive disincentives against casual piracy), neither homebrew authors/publishers nor users are ready for the idea as yet.

 

For the time being, if you really want it that badly, just buy the cartridge. If for some reason you specifically need a ROM, buy the cartridge and dump it yourself (and don't give the ROM away after you dump it).

[+opcode]

Old-timers here probably already know what I am going to say...

I prefer people to experience the games the old fashioned way, on a real CV, using real cartridges that come in nice cardboard boxes with nice manuals. In fact I don't have a flash cart, and I don't need one. My PC and BlueMSX are good enough for all my development needs, and having a stack of cartridges close to my CV is a thousand times more exciting than selecting games from a menu...

Secondly, it isn't quite true that I don't release my ROMs. Space Invaders Collection and Sky Jaguar are both freely available.

 

Eduardo

[NIAD]

If people have the ability to download something for free and save themselves between $25 to $50, what do you think they are going to do... download away. There are a limited number of people that want the total CiB package (cart, manual and box) and will buy everything that is produced (I bought Peek-A-Boo even though I had the MSX rom file and Kobashi even though I have the CV demo) and then there is a limited number of people who might buy the CiB package so the Homebrewers really need to be applauded for going to the extremes that they do to bring us such professional games and packages... even if they are ports from other systems in some cases, that is an argument that needs to once and for all be thrown out already. A company like Atari can bury 5 million copies of E.T. in the desert without even flinching, a homebrewer can't afford to waste even one cart shell, pcb, prom, label, manual or box without feeling the effects.

 

I can respect the feeling that if a CiB game package is completely sold out that one would question why can't a rom image file be made available for all those that couldn't buy or missed out on the release. Lord knows I missed out on a few and I thank and praise those Homebrewers who have made rom images available such as Eduardo did with his Space Invaders Collection game, but then this limits the possibility of another run of CiB packages being made and completely rules out the possibility of digital distribution for a fee. Then you have to consider all the people who bought a CiB game package and how releasing the rom image might de-value the CiB package or make it possible for someone to create their own bootleg package and further de-value the original. I'll hopefully never have to sell any of my collection, but if I do, I would like to get at least my initial purchase price/investment back if not over $700 which someone recently paid for Mario Bros. or $325 that someone paid for Ghost(s) and Zombies on eBay.

 

Piracy has been rampant since the dawn of the age of computers and even in early console based systems via pirate carts all the way up to today's modern consoles and it will never stop... even to help a Homebrewer sell out his stock. So in the end, we have to learn to live with the wishes of the Homebrewers and respect their decisions no matter how wrong you might think they are. If we don't or can't, they will eventually throw in the towel and we will be left with nothing.

[NIAD]

This is the same topic as last year.....well...

Yeah, I noticed that as well... seems to be a yearly occurence that generally happens around the Summer Solstice.